The context of 1 Thess 5:1

[Diaste]

34 minutes ago, Salty said:

I admonish you to look deeper. Our Lord Jesus linked the idea of a false coming to work great signs and wonders to deceive, even revealing that the whole world will be deceived, except for Christ's elect. So that's not going to be a working comparable to anything man has done up to that time. The Rev.13:11 forward examples mentions the coming Antichrist raining fire down from heaven in the sight of men, working miracles. And Apostle Paul revealed that coming false one will sit in the temple in Jerusalem exalting himself above all that is worshiped, or that is even called God.

Imagine that, a false one coming that will have powers of deception that will deceive ALL... the world's religions, and peoples, and even anything that is worshiped! That's not talking about any flesh man born to this day. Even our Lord Jesus Who has ultimate power to work miracles on earth was not exalted above all nations and peoples like that (but He will be when He returns).

In short, the coming Antichrist is coming to play Christ, and he is given the power of miracles, wonders, and great signs in order to pull it off. Yet our Lord Jesus and His Apostles warned us, that is, those who listen to Him in His Word and not to men's doctrines instead.

We are in agreement. My speculation concerns the first half before the A of D, during the falling away, where a specific message is aimed at believers; the world will be deceived, the Christians will be a special target. But again, it's just a thought experiment. 

[douggg]

1 hour ago, Salty said:

Our Lord Jesus' idea of our escaping is about escaping the 'temptation' by the coming pseudo-Christ, and thus we who remain faithful to Jesus standing in Him do not suffer the "sudden destruction" that will be upon those who do fall to that Antichrist. Proof? 

In Matthew 24, especially in the 23-26 verses, our Lord Jesus showed the 'vile person' (of Dan.11) will have the "abomination of desolation" placed in Jerusalem to begin the time of "great tribulation." He then told His servants that if someone comes up to you and says, "Lo, here is Christ, or there", to not believe it, because a pseudo-Christ (mistranslated as "false Christs" in the KJV) is to come working great signs and wonders that IF possible, would deceive even His very elect. That warning aligns with what Paul taught in 2 Thess.2 about the "man of sin" coming to sit in the temple in Jerusalem working lying wonders to deceive prior to Christ's coming and our gathering.

It don't think that is it.   Jesus didn't mention escaping temptation in Luke 21:34-36.    

I think the message about false rumors that He (Christ) is in the desert or some other place, has to do with them looking for his return, would not fall for those rumors - because Jesus said his return would be as evident as lightning across the sky.  

The false Christs and false prophets that would arise are persons like Jose' Miranda, and John Miller in Australia, and Vissarion in Russia.

1 hour ago, Salty said:

The "day of the Lord" timing is the very last day of this present world. It will come suddenly, like Apostle Paul showed, and as Peter also showed in 2 Peter 3:10. That is what the "as a thief in the night" phrase is about. Our Lord Jesus used that phrase too when He said He comes "as a thief" in Rev.16:15. He gave the warning there on 6th vial, and then for the 7th vial He gathers the nations to battle for the "day of the Lord" on the day of His coming, which is shown in Zechariah 14, His feet touching down upon the Mount of Olives. On that same day He gathers His Church and brings them with Him to Jerusalem at that site.

The very last day of this present world is part of the "Day of the Lord".    But it is not limited to that one day.    Isaiah 11 speaks of what will also be the Day of the Lord, after Jesus returns and the millennium period takes place.    And Jeremiah 3:16-17.

Amos 5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.

Why would they be desiring the the day of the Lord - if they did not associate it with the messianic age of restoration of all things?

[Salty]

2 minutes ago, Diaste said:

We are in agreement. My speculation concerns the first half before the A of D, during the falling away, where a specific message is aimed at believers; the world will be deceived, the Christians will be a special target. But again, it's just a thought experiment. 

The falling away Paul associated with that "man of sin" sitting in the temple playing God, but I don't think that will begin until the latter 1260 day period, right at the middle to be more exact, when the AOD is setup. Rev.13 points to the idol image setup following the pattern of what the king of Babylon did. Nebuchadnezzar made a golden image of himself, and demanded all to bow in worship at the sound of the psalter. Daniel and his fellows refused to bow. I believe when that idol is setup, and the command to bow, is when the persecutions upon us will begin. Like in Daniel's day, he and his fellows were well protected prior to the command to bow to the idol. Daniel was even exalted by Nebuchadnezzar via God's working.

 

[douggg]

1 hour ago, Salty said:

I don't know where you guys are getting the idea that the "day of the Lord" begins with the time of "great tribulation", but that idea is not from God's Word.

We get the Day of the Lord begins with hard times, before it gets to what they desire which is the messianic age and the restoration of all things, from...

Amos 5     

18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.

19 As if a man did flee from a lion, and a bear met him; or went into the house, and leaned his hand on the wall, and a serpent bit him.

20 Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

The Day of the Lord actually begins a short time before the great tribulation by a month or so.

The transgression of Desolation act (Daniel 8:12-13) by the Antichrist in 2Thessalonians2:4 triggers the Day of the Lord.

Then a short time later...

The abomination of Desolation image of the beast placed in the temple triggers the great tribulation.

 

Edited August 21, 2018 by douggg

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Salty said:

Now you are just adding more falsehoods to what you've said before.

As I said before, in 2 Thessalonians 2:2, the Greek word for Christ is NOT... in the NT Textus Receptus which was used for the KJV Bible.

2 Thess 2:2
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ (actually Greek kurios = Lord) is at hand.
KJV

The proper translation there is not "day of Christ". It should have been "day of the Lord".

 

Furthermore, Apostle Paul declared in those 2 Thess.2:1-4 verses that the falling away and man of sin being revealed MUST occur first, PRIOR to Christ's coming and gathering of His Church. And that 'day' of His coming Paul referred to there as the "day of the Lord" in verse 2.

That makes Pre-trib's teaching that the "day of the Lord" begins at the start of the tribulation as a FALSEHOOD, and against God's Word.

 

Who is to say which is "proper" when our Greek Texts do not agree. What we know is the trusted KJV uses Day of Christ. I personally think It is Day of the Lord, for that is what Paul used in his first letter.

Now I must believe you are just trying to push some strange doctrine onto us, or you lack reading skill. Paul only told us ONE THING must come first but you insist it is two things. Paul said the apostasia or departing must come first, and THEN (only then) can the man of sin be revealed. So to push your theory you have totally altered what Paul really wrote.  Sorry, Salty, but I am going to stick with exactly what Paul wrote. Your preconceived glasses has prevented you from seeing the truth.

Therefore I conclude it is YOUR theory that is false.

 

I agree with you on Day of the Lord, but I guess I will have to do your homework for you, since you have received a D- !

From the Blue Letter bible: Textus Receptus:

Χριστός

Transliteration

Christos

Pronunciation

khrē-sto's (Key)

Part of Speech

adjective

Root Word (Etymology)

From χρίω (G5548)

cristou  is CHRISTOS!  It is Day of Christ in the Texus Receptus and in the Byzantine Majority Text. 

From Hurts Parallel Greek:

Stephens 1550 Textus Receptus
eiV to mh tacewV saleuqhnai umaV apo tou nooV mhte qroeisqai mhte dia pneumatoV mhte dia logou mhte di epistolhV wV di hmwn wV oti enesthken h hmera tou cristou

Scrivener 1894 Textus Receptus
eiV to mh tacewV saleuqhnai umaV apo tou nooV mhte qroeisqai mhte dia pneumatoV mhte dia logou mhte di epistolhV wV di hmwn wV oti enesthken h hmera tou cristou

 

Byzantine Majority
eiV to mh tacewV saleuqhnai umaV apo tou nooV mhte qroeisqai mhte dia pneumatoV mhte dia logou mhte di epistolhV wV di hmwn wV oti enesthken h hmera tou cristou

 

Alexandrian
eiV to mh tacewV saleuqhnai umaV apo tou nooV mhde qroeisqai mhte dia pneumatoV mhte dia logou mhte di epistolhV wV di hmwn wV oti enesthken h hmera tou kuriou

 

Hort and Westcott
eiV to mh tacewV saleuqhnai umaV apo tou nooV mhde qroeisqai mhte dia pneumatoV mhte dia logou mhte di epistolhV wV di hmwn wV oti enesthken h hmera tou kuriou

 

 

[iamlamad]

32 minutes ago, douggg said:

We get the Day of the Lord begins with hard times, before it gets to what they desire which is the messianic age and the restoration of all things, from...

Amos 5     

18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.

19 As if a man did flee from a lion, and a bear met him; or went into the house, and leaned his hand on the wall, and a serpent bit him.

20 Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

The Day of the Lord actually begins a short time before the great tribulation by a month or so.

The transgression of Desolation act (Daniel 8:12-13) by the Antichrist in 2Thessalonians2:4 triggers the Day of the Lord.

Then a short time later...

The abomination of Desolation image of the beast placed in the temple triggers the great tribulation.

 

I disagree with both you and Salty because both of you disagree with what is written. 

John TOLD us when THE DAY begins, and it is before the entire 70th week. All of the week is INSIDE the DAY and INSIDE the time of His wrath.

[iamlamad]

36 minutes ago, Salty said:

The falling away Paul associated with that "man of sin" sitting in the temple playing God, but I don't think that will begin until the latter 1260 day period, right at the middle to be more exact, when the AOD is setup. Rev.13 points to the idol image setup following the pattern of what the king of Babylon did. Nebuchadnezzar made a golden image of himself, and demanded all to bow in worship at the sound of the psalter. Daniel and his fellows refused to bow. I believe when that idol is setup, and the command to bow, is when the persecutions upon us will begin. Like in Daniel's day, he and his fellows were well protected prior to the command to bow to the idol. Daniel was even exalted by Nebuchadnezzar via God's working.

 

You are free to hold to that theory, but the bible shows us that the church will never see those days of GT because they are wrath, and as Paul wrote, God is not going to set any appointments for us with His wrath!

Why then are so many so determined to set their OWN appointments?  It is not a falling away, it is a departing - the rapture of the church.  That MUST come before the man of sin can be revealed because it is the church that is restraining him.

[iamlamad]

39 minutes ago, douggg said:

It don't think that is it.   Jesus didn't mention escaping temptation in Luke 21:34-36.    

I think the message about false rumors that He (Christ) is in the desert or some other place, has to do with them looking for his return, would not fall for those rumors - because Jesus said his return would be as evident as lightning across the sky.  

The false Christs and false prophets that would arise are persons like Jose' Miranda, and John Miller in Australia, and Vissarion in Russia.

The very last day of this present world is part of the "Day of the Lord".    But it is not limited to that one day.    Isaiah 11 speaks of what will also be the Day of the Lord, after Jesus returns and the millennium period takes place.    And Jeremiah 3:16-17.

Amos 5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.

Why would they be desiring the the day of the Lord - if they did not associate it with the messianic age of restoration of all things?

The truth is, the very last 24 hour day will be a PART of the Day of the Lord, but John shows us that THE DAY begins before the entire 70th week. Believe it for it is truth. Go back and read the last verse of chapter 6. Read it until you believe it!

[Salty]

1 minute ago, douggg said:

It don't think that is it.   Jesus didn't mention escaping temptation in Luke 21:34-36.    

I think the message about false rumors that He (Christ) is in the desert or some other place, has to do with them looking for his return, would not fall for those rumors - because Jesus said his return would be as evident as lightning across the sky.  

I don't get your meaning about "false rumors". Jesus was giving us a warning about the coming Antichrist, not a false rumor.

Matt 24:23-26
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there"; believe it not.

That's not about a rumor. It's about the appearance of a false one who the deceived will be saying that in red. It's means they will actually believe Christ (Messiah) has come.

 

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

And just to make sure we understand about that fake Christ, Jesus warns us deeper about that coming false one. That phrase "false Christs" is the Greek word pseudochristos in the NT manuscripts for the KJV. It is from two Greek words, pseudo meaning false, and christos meaning Christ (singular). Dr. James Strong translated it as 'a spurious Messiah'. Jesus says that one will work great signs and wonders that if possible, would deceive His very elect. His elect are sealed, and cannot be deceived. So what level of power would that be, to almost deceive even Christ's elect?

No one on earth yet claiming to be Christ has been able to work that level of deception. That is how strong our Lord Jesus' warning is there. The Rev.13:11 forward examples shows that false one will rain fire down from heaven in the sight of men. So that pseudo-Christ will be very real, definitely not a rumor.

 

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, "Behold, He is in the desert"; go not forth: "behold, He is in the secret chambers"; believe it not.
KJV

When our Lord Jesus repeats a warning, that's for special emphasis. So this is not a light matter as some would try to make it. Again He warns, if someone comes up to us and says, Messiah is in the desert, or in the secret chambers, don't believe it.

It is very true that the next Matt.24 verses our Lord Jesus gave in contrast to how He returns. All eyes will see our Lord Jesus' coming like Rev.1 declares, even those who pierced Him. But that doesn't change His Message of warning there about the coming false Messiah.

Quote

The false Christs and false prophets that would arise are persons like Jose' Miranda, and John Miller in Australia, and Vissarion in Russia.

 

Our Lord Jesus gave two examples in Matt.24.

In Matt.24:4-5 is where He was talking about "many" coming in His name, saying they are Christ. Those are the many false prophets of history, and of our modern day, saying they are Jesus Christ. Have those the power to do great signs and wonders, raining fire from heaven down to the earth like how our Lord Jesus showed? (Matt.24:24; Rev.13:11-13; 2 Thess.2:9).

That follows the idea of 1 John 2:18 of the warning about 'the antichrist' (a spurious Messiah), and also the "many antichrists" (his servants). Matthew 24:4-5 is about the "many antichrists". But the Matthew 24:23-26 Scripture is about 'the antichrist', a spurious Messiah. The main proof is how the coming Antichrist is going to work the miracles to deceive the whole world, all religions, into believing he is God. No flesh born man has ever done that to date.

Quote

The very last day of this present world is part of the "Day of the Lord".    But it is not limited to that one day.    Isaiah 11 speaks of what will also be the Day of the Lord, after Jesus returns and the millennium period takes place.    And Jeremiah 3:16-17.

Some consider the "day of the Lord" being a thousand years period because of what Peter said in 2 Peter 3. I agree, but that's not been my point. My point is that it is impossible... for the "day of the Lord" to begin at any other time than the very last day of this present world. 2 Peter 3:10 is the biggest reason why that is. The devil's and his children's works on earth cannot survive God's consuming fire that will burn man's works off this earth when the "day of the Lord" starts.

Quote

Amos 5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.

Why would they be desiring the the day of the Lord - if they did not associate it with the messianic age of restoration of all things?

Do you desire that day to come? I do, because I know it means the day of Christ's coming, our gathering, and the destruction of the wicked's hold over this earth today. And our Lord Jesus will be King over the whole earth and reign for ever. And we will reign with Him. Yet the Amos 5:18 idea is that Christ's thousand years reign is not going to be a joyful time for many. It will be a time of Christ's "rod of iron" over the nations. What do you think that "rod of iron" is for, and who it is for? His elect who remained faithful waiting for Him are going to be relatively few compared to the nations who fall away. I just hope I'm in that few number of saints that reigns with Him.

 

 

 

[iamlamad]

56 minutes ago, Diaste said:

We are in agreement. My speculation concerns the first half before the A of D, during the falling away, where a specific message is aimed at believers; the world will be deceived, the Christians will be a special target. But again, it's just a thought experiment. 

It is not until the midpoint (chapter 12) that Satan the dragon goes after the "remnant" of those who love Jesus. It is only a remnant because the main load went out with the pretrib rapture. It will be the trumpet judgments that come in the first half of the week.