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Heb 13:8

The context of 1 Thess 5:1

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9 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Heb,

I hear what you say, however.....a Christian, (in the truest sense) is a follower of Jesus by the Holy Spirit. Those ones you talk of are following someone else!!!

Marilyn.

 

You're probably right, God gave us Astronomy for a reason Gen 1:14, but many will not awake Rev 3:3.

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On 8/11/2018 at 5:42 AM, iamlamad said:

Sorry, but the theme is the gathering.

They were greatly disturbed because someone prophesied to them or they read a letter supposedly from Paul that the DAY had started, and they were already in it.  The reason they were greatly upset is because in Paul's first letter, he explained that the rapture would trigger the Day of the Lord - that they would be called up and THEN the Day would begin. I think most people in a similar situation would be greatly disturbed! 

Paul's argument then, was to show anyone how they can know for SURE that the DAY has come and they are in it. 

FIRST - in agreement with His first letter - first there most come a departing or departure: the entity that is restraining the man of sin, keeping him from being revealed until the proper time - and then, after the departure  - after the one restraining has been "taken out of the way"  - then the man of sin can be revealed. 

Paul is very clear, before the man of sin can be revealed, the one restraining MUST be taken out of the way.  The THEME of this passage is the rapture of the church - where the church is taken out of the way. 

In verse 6 Paul wrote, "and now you know"(who this restrainer is).  HOW Paul? HOW can we know? The answer is very obvious: HE JUST TOLD US, but in a way easy to be missed: so Paul wrote this phrase do people would go back and dig in deeper. We know from verses 6-8 that the man of sin cannot be revealed until a very significant departing takes place, and this departing is the restrainer "taken out of the way" which hints strongly of an OUTSIDE FORCE involved in this significant departing. Again, this fits the gathering or rapture to a "T."  In the rapture event an outside force - the Holy Spirit - catches away the church, both living and those who have passed - so that they are effectively "taken out of the way." As per Paul's first letter, the moment the church has been taken out of the way, the DAY begins with His wrath beginning. 

When therefore the church has been taken out of the way, THEN the man of sin will be revealed, and Paul tells us, when that happens, when the man of sin enters the temple and declares he is the God of the Jews, THEN all will know the DAY has come and they are now IN IT. See how simple this passage is? 

If we go back to verse 3, and look at the last half of the verse, we see that in Paul's argument, the man of sin has now been revealed, meaning, of course, that the one restraining has now been "taken out of the way." Therefore, in the first half of the verse, we MUST FIND the one restraining or holding back the revealing - being "taken out of the way." There is only one possibility: hidden in the word "apostasia" is the one doing the restraining being removed or taken out of the way.

When we study Strong's we find this apostasia is a compound Greek word, with APO and STASIA.  It is from the Greek word stasia that we get "stationary" or not moving. But under the Greek word APO Strong wrote this: that it is a part of a whole [group] removed and taken somewhere else while the rest of the group is left. Again this is a perfect description of the rapture: a part of the whole population of earth will be snatched away from the whole group. And it will happen SO FAST it will seem like the rest of the world did not even move: they were stationary.

If Paul had not written, "and now you know" perhaps most would miss his real meaning.  

Next, there is parallelism here: with several verses. In the first part of the verse or verses it is the restrainer being taken out of the way, and in the second part of the verse or verses, it is the man of sin being revealed.

Ultimately Paul point to them was, there is no need to be greatly disturbed: people can know for SURE that the DAY has come and they are in it, when they see the man of sin revealed - but not to worry, for the great departing [of the church] must come first.

 

One thing that is very certain: the gathering is NOT the DAY nor is the DAY the same as the gathering. The truth is, the gathering will be the trigger for the DAY. Paul shows us this is both letters. He certainly would not disagree with his first letter in his second letter.

Hi Iamlamad....

You said....."Ultimately Paul point to them was, there is no need to be greatly disturbed: people can know for SURE that the DAY has come and they are in it, when they see the man of sin revealed - but not to worry, for the great departing [of the church] must come first."

Ummmm, ya,............. this makes absolutely no sense. So what you are saying is that Paul is telling the church and us that "when they (we) see the man of sin revealed".....well, don't worry, 'cause you won't be here' to even see the man of sin being revealed??????????????

 Let's have a look at 2Thes.....

Paul addresses the main question on the minds of the Thessalonian believers.

" Why are we being persecuted "

This was no ordinary persecution. It was very severe. So severe in fact that they were wondering if the Day of the Lord had already begun and that they had missed the rapture.

We ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure. This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. (2 Thess. 1:4-5)

Paul admonishes them, he speaks proudly of them, he glories in them, he basically brags of them.....why?.......for holding up under the severe persecutions they were enduring. They were a model for other churches and for us of how to endure.

Now....and this is very important..... their 'Works" ie endurance, weren't the cause of their future salvation and acceptance into the coming kingdom of God on earth......rather, it was proof that they already had the saving faith that God would judge worthy of entry into the kingdom......(James 2:17-19 , faith/works )

So Paul is confirming that persecution and tribulation are NOT signs of God's displeasure with us.....no, rather, our ENDURANCE of RIGHTEOUS PERSECUTION is evidence that we have saving faith.............................. ( NOT MY WORDS....Paul's, Holy Spirit's)

What God is saying here is that He doesn't insulate us from from the wrath of man, whether tribulation or great tribulation. It is His Godly Wrath that He won't allow us to enter.

The Thessalonians were interested in when they would receive relief from their persecution. Paul gives them (and us )a direct answer in the very next passage:

God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. (2 Thess. 1:6-8)

Here is the PROOF of the rapture timing.

God is going to accomplish two things.......when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire,......

He is going to afflict those who do the persecuting.....AND.....He is going to pour out His Wrath on them. Additionally, He is going to grant relief to those who have been persecuted.

This is NOT via a pre-tribulation rapture! Jesus being visibly revealed with angels in flaming fire ISN'T a pretribulation event.

It is the coming of Jesus as depicted in Math 24:29-31. That is the moment that Jesus will provide relief to the afflicted - during a pre-wrath rapture.

Paul adds a "tiny" phrase that makes the thought that this passage "refers only to tribulation saints" nonsensical. 

He says.........."and to us as well".....(Paul and his companions). 

Paul is dead......the Thessalonians are dead.

The only way Paul and his friends and the Thessalonians can receive relief is when Jesus is revealed in fire through the resurrection from the dead- and that happens prior to the rapture.

THUS.....the resurrection of the righteous dead and the Rapture happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire.

Paul then continues.......

Inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed. (2 Thess. 1:8-9)

Paul concludes by explaining that the day the saints are glorified (resurrection bodies) and the day they marvel at their Messiah is the day He visibly comes on the clouds with His angels in flaming fire.

Paul continues.....(remember, there are no chapter breaks)

Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come unless . . . (2 Thess. 2:1-3)

Paul calls this the coming (parousia) of the Lord (in flaming fire) and our gathering together (dead and living gathered together) via the Resurrection and Rapture.

Nothing could be more plain! Paul is here referring to what he just wrote about a sentence or two before. The pretribulation opinion that Paul is here referring back to Thes 1 is terrible exegesis.

I don't even have to go into the meaning of 'apostasia'(although the clear meaning of this word, rebellion, discounts it) .....to disprove the pretribulation rapture ,  Scripture itself disproves it.

Edited by JoeCanada
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Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

The context of 1Thes 5:1 begins back in chapter 4 verse 13.  It starts with comfort concerning the saints that have already died (those who sleep in Jesus). Paul reassures the Thessalonians that they (the sleeping saints) will not be left behind when Christ gathers His own unto Himself. In explanation, Paul provides many details concerning the arrival of Christ upon the day of the Lord. These details not only cover Christ's interaction with His saints on that day (resurrection and rapture), but also show the perils that will come upon those who are unbelievers when Christ's arrives at His coming (parousia). We must recognize that it is Christ's single future parousia (arrival and continuing presence) that Paul focuses upon. It involves our rescue and the beginning of His vengeance upon those who persecute us.

1Th 4:13  But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming (parousia) of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18  Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

The chapter division in this text is artificial and only serves to hide the obvious connection between chapter 4 and chapter 5. Verse 10 of chapter 5 is ample evidence of the relationship to those who are asleep in 4:13. Christ's arrival at His parousia initiates the day of the Lord and His wrath poured out therein.

1Th 5:1  But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2  For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3  For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4  But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5  Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6  Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
1Th 5:7  For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
1Th 5:8  But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
1Th 5:9  For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Th 5:10  Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
1Th 5:11  Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Paul tells the church in Thessalonica that the day of the Lord will not catch the believing church unawares like a thief. It is only the unbelieving that will be caught suddenly, like a thief. We will not only know the times and seasons of the return of Christ, initiating the day of the Lord, but we are also promised to be spared (5:9) from that dreadful period of God's wrath poured out upon the earth-dwellers.

All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lord Jesus Christ

Edited by Steve Conley

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1 hour ago, Steve Conley said:

These details not only cover Christ's interaction with His saints on that day (resurrection and rapture)

Paul tells the church in Thessalonica that the day of the Lord will not catch the believing church unawares like a thief. It is only the unbelieving that will be caught suddenly, like a thief.

If most Christians think Rev 12:1-5 is astrology and are not studying the 7 feasts of the Lord, then what understanding will we have that today is the day of rapture. Will it be war, an asteroid, peace treaty or will we just know in our gut and instincts.

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15 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi Iamlamad....

You said....."Ultimately Paul point to them was, there is no need to be greatly disturbed: people can know for SURE that the DAY has come and they are in it, when they see the man of sin revealed - but not to worry, for the great departing [of the church] must come first."

Ummmm, ya,............. this makes absolutely no sense. So what you are saying is that Paul is telling the church and us that "when they (we) see the man of sin revealed".....well, don't worry, 'cause you won't be here' to even see the man of sin being revealed??????????????

 Let's have a look at 2Thes.....

Paul addresses the main question on the minds of the Thessalonian believers.

" Why are we being persecuted "

This was no ordinary persecution. It was very severe. So severe in fact that they were wondering if the Day of the Lord had already begun and that they had missed the rapture.

We ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure. This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. (2 Thess. 1:4-5)

Paul admonishes them, he speaks proudly of them, he glories in them, he basically brags of them.....why?.......for holding up under the severe persecutions they were enduring. They were a model for other churches and for us of how to endure.

Now....and this is very important..... their 'Works" ie endurance, weren't the cause of their future salvation and acceptance into the coming kingdom of God on earth......rather, it was proof that they already had the saving faith that God would judge worthy of entry into the kingdom......(James 2:17-19 , faith/works )

So Paul is confirming that persecution and tribulation are NOT signs of God's displeasure with us.....no, rather, our ENDURANCE of RIGHTEOUS PERSECUTION is evidence that we have saving faith.............................. ( NOT MY WORDS....Paul's, Holy Spirit's)

What God is saying here is that He doesn't insulate us from from the wrath of man, whether tribulation or great tribulation. It is His Godly Wrath that He won't allow us to enter.

The Thessalonians were interested in when they would receive relief from their persecution. Paul gives them (and us )a direct answer in the very next passage:

God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. (2 Thess. 1:6-8)

Here is the PROOF of the rapture timing.

God is going to accomplish two things.......when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire,......

He is going to afflict those who do the persecuting.....AND.....He is going to pour out His Wrath on them. Additionally, He is going to grant relief to those who have been persecuted.

This is NOT via a pre-tribulation rapture! Jesus being visibly revealed with angels in flaming fire ISN'T a pretribulation event.

It is the coming of Jesus as depicted in Math 24:29-31. That is the moment that Jesus will provide relief to the afflicted - during a pre-wrath rapture.

Paul adds a "tiny" phrase that makes the thought that this passage "refers only to tribulation saints" nonsensical. 

He says.........."and to us as well".....(Paul and his companions). 

Paul is dead......the Thessalonians are dead.

The only way Paul and his friends and the Thessalonians can receive relief is when Jesus is revealed in fire through the resurrection from the dead- and that happens prior to the rapture.

THUS.....the resurrection of the righteous dead and the Rapture happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire.

Paul then continues.......

Inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed. (2 Thess. 1:8-9)

Paul concludes by explaining that the day the saints are glorified (resurrection bodies) and the day they marvel at their Messiah is the day He visibly comes on the clouds with His angels in flaming fire.

Paul continues.....(remember, there are no chapter breaks)

Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come unless . . . (2 Thess. 2:1-3)

Paul calls this the coming (parousia) of the Lord (in flaming fire) and our gathering together (dead and living gathered together) via the Resurrection and Rapture.

Nothing could be more plain! Paul is here referring to what he just wrote about a sentence or two before. The pretribulation opinion that Paul is here referring back to Thes 1 is terrible exegesis.

I don't even have to go into the meaning of 'apostasia'(although the clear meaning of this word, rebellion, discounts it) .....to disprove the pretribulation rapture ,  Scripture itself disproves it.

It seems posttribbers really don't understand Paul in EITHER 2 Thes. chapter 1, or chapter 2. Postribbers imagine that 1 Thes. 1:7-8 conclusively proves a post trib rapture. It does not. just as in chapter 2, a beginning reader may assume things Paul did not mean. As Peter said, Paul's writings are tough - hard to understand! 

Most people assume, when a believer arrives in heaven, their "rest" is complete. They never consider the martyrs of the church age, those seen in seal 5. They are in heaven, but they still LONG to see God's vengeance on the wicked. The truth is, there will be a partial rest when the pretrib raptured church arrives in heaven - but there will be complete rest after Jesus Christ comes in power and glory and ALL the wicked are destroyed. 

The amplified bible puts it, "dealing out [full and complete] vengeance..." When? When Jesus comes in power to destroy His enemies - of course post trib. And that is when all believers will receive their "full and complete" rest. God's enemies will all have been destroyed. So complete rest comes when complete destruction comes to the wicked. this would include that battle of Armageddon, but also the parable of the tares and the sheep and goat judgment. Paul is not talking about the rapture here. He is talking about how all believers will feel compete rest when all the wicked are gone.  The purpose of the rapture is NOT to save people from tribulation! It is to pull us out before God sends His wrath. 

I disagree. Paul's argument in chapter 2 is to show them that they are NOT in the day of the Lord, and to confirm to them what he had taught them while he was there - that the rapture would come FIRST. They thought they were in the DAY and had missed the rapture. Paul makes it very clear to them that they were NOT in the DAY and therefore had NOT missed the rapture.  After reading Paul's second letter, they understood that they would not even SEE the man of sin, for the departing would take place FIRST. It DOES make sense.  Maybe it is not the way you would have written it, but it is the way Paul wrote it. They were believing they were already in the DAY and Paul shows them clearly that they could not be...so they were relieved. 

Sorry, but I disagree with your theory of the end times.  All one need do is read what Daniel wrote about the 70 weeks: it was a prophecy for HIS PEOPLE, the Jews and Hebrews. The 70th week is not for the church. We don't need to be "completely crushed" to turn to Him: we already trust in Him. No, God's plan is to completely crush the power of the Jews and Hebrews - to wipe out their IDF completely - until they have ONLY HIM to trust. And that is when He will return in flaming fire. As for the church, we will return WITH HIM.  

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8 hours ago, iamlamad said:

It seems posttribbers really don't understand Paul in EITHER 2 Thes. chapter 1, or chapter 2. Postribbers imagine that 1 Thes. 1:7-8 conclusively proves a post trib rapture. It does not. just as in chapter 2, a beginning reader may assume things Paul did not mean. As Peter said, Paul's writings are tough - hard to understand! 

Most people assume, when a believer arrives in heaven, their "rest" is complete. They never consider the martyrs of the church age, those seen in seal 5. They are in heaven, but they still LONG to see God's vengeance on the wicked. The truth is, there will be a partial rest when the pretrib raptured church arrives in heaven - but there will be complete rest after Jesus Christ comes in power and glory and ALL the wicked are destroyed. 

The amplified bible puts it, "dealing out [full and complete] vengeance..." When? When Jesus comes in power to destroy His enemies - of course post trib. And that is when all believers will receive their "full and complete" rest. God's enemies will all have been destroyed. So complete rest comes when complete destruction comes to the wicked. this would include that battle of Armageddon, but also the parable of the tares and the sheep and goat judgment. Paul is not talking about the rapture here. He is talking about how all believers will feel compete rest when all the wicked are gone.  The purpose of the rapture is NOT to save people from tribulation! It is to pull us out before God sends His wrath. 

I disagree. Paul's argument in chapter 2 is to show them that they are NOT in the day of the Lord, and to confirm to them what he had taught them while he was there - that the rapture would come FIRST. They thought they were in the DAY and had missed the rapture. Paul makes it very clear to them that they were NOT in the DAY and therefore had NOT missed the rapture.  After reading Paul's second letter, they understood that they would not even SEE the man of sin, for the departing would take place FIRST. It DOES make sense.  Maybe it is not the way you would have written it, but it is the way Paul wrote it. They were believing they were already in the DAY and Paul shows them clearly that they could not be...so they were relieved. 

Sorry, but I disagree with your theory of the end times.  All one need do is read what Daniel wrote about the 70 weeks: it was a prophecy for HIS PEOPLE, the Jews and Hebrews. The 70th week is not for the church. We don't need to be "completely crushed" to turn to Him: we already trust in Him. No, God's plan is to completely crush the power of the Jews and Hebrews - to wipe out their IDF completely - until they have ONLY HIM to trust. And that is when He will return in flaming fire. As for the church, we will return WITH HIM.  

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

I'm sorry Iamlamad, but I have to laugh at your attempts to take two rather self-explanatory statements of Paul and wrest them to teach something altogether different. It is just this type of foolishness that has led to so many sects, teaching all kinds of strange doctrines, among those who call themselves Christians.

The doctrine of the "partial rest". Really?

Or, the doctrine of "the apostasia means the rapture". You got to be kidding! There isn't a single example in all of Koine Greek literature where apostasia is used meaning a physical departure. In every known use of the word in the 6 centuries of Koine Greek, it always referred to a religious departure (falling away) or a political departure. There is no evidence that it was ever even once used to indicate a physical departure. However, you and many other pretribulationists are so desperate to find a pre-trib rapture in the Scriptures that you will seemingly stoop to any level to convince others that you are correct.

May the Lord have mercy and open the eyes of His people to recognize wresting of the Scriptures like this.

All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lord Jesus Christ

 

 

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12 hours ago, iamlamad said:

It seems posttribbers really don't understand Paul in EITHER 2 Thes. chapter 1, or chapter 2. Postribbers imagine that 1 Thes. 1:7-8 conclusively proves a post trib rapture. It does not. just as in chapter 2, a beginning reader may assume things Paul did not mean. As Peter said, Paul's writings are tough - hard to understand! 

Most people assume, when a believer arrives in heaven, their "rest" is complete. They never consider the martyrs of the church age, those seen in seal 5. They are in heaven, but they still LONG to see God's vengeance on the wicked. The truth is, there will be a partial rest when the pretrib raptured church arrives in heaven - but there will be complete rest after Jesus Christ comes in power and glory and ALL the wicked are destroyed. 

The amplified bible puts it, "dealing out [full and complete] vengeance..." When? When Jesus comes in power to destroy His enemies - of course post trib. And that is when all believers will receive their "full and complete" rest. God's enemies will all have been destroyed. So complete rest comes when complete destruction comes to the wicked. this would include that battle of Armageddon, but also the parable of the tares and the sheep and goat judgment. Paul is not talking about the rapture here. He is talking about how all believers will feel compete rest when all the wicked are gone.  The purpose of the rapture is NOT to save people from tribulation! It is to pull us out before God sends His wrath. 

I disagree. Paul's argument in chapter 2 is to show them that they are NOT in the day of the Lord, and to confirm to them what he had taught them while he was there - that the rapture would come FIRST. They thought they were in the DAY and had missed the rapture. Paul makes it very clear to them that they were NOT in the DAY and therefore had NOT missed the rapture.  After reading Paul's second letter, they understood that they would not even SEE the man of sin, for the departing would take place FIRST. It DOES make sense.  Maybe it is not the way you would have written it, but it is the way Paul wrote it. They were believing they were already in the DAY and Paul shows them clearly that they could not be...so they were relieved. 

Sorry, but I disagree with your theory of the end times.  All one need do is read what Daniel wrote about the 70 weeks: it was a prophecy for HIS PEOPLE, the Jews and Hebrews. The 70th week is not for the church. We don't need to be "completely crushed" to turn to Him: we already trust in Him. No, God's plan is to completely crush the power of the Jews and Hebrews - to wipe out their IDF completely - until they have ONLY HIM to trust. And that is when He will return in flaming fire. As for the church, we will return WITH HIM.  

Hi iamlamad....

I am not a post trib believer, just to make it clear.

As has been shown by scripture, 2 Thes 1:6-8 gives us the timing of the Rapture ( and Resurrection ). You cannot refute God's Word.

This scripture completely refutes any notion of a pre-tribulation rapture. 

You do however, explain things real well...." By the way, everything I write about 2 Thes. 2 is my own creation..............."

 

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11 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi iamlamad....

I am not a post trib believer, just to make it clear.

As has been shown by scripture, 2 Thes 1:6-8 gives us the timing of the Rapture ( and Resurrection ). You cannot refute God's Word.

This scripture completely refutes any notion of a pre-tribulation rapture. 

You do however, explain things real well...." By the way, everything I write about 2 Thes. 2 is my own creation..............."

 

You only imagine that is talking about the rapture, due to preconceived glasses. On the other hand, the entire church knows that 1 Thes. 4 & 5 are about the rapture. Sorry, but Paul did not contradict himself in his second letter! In his first letter he made it clear that the rapture would come FIRST and then time would go from the age of grace to the Day of the Lord. One MUST follow the other, so it is impossible that they be the same thing in different words. 

By "own creation" don't read into that what is not here. I did not copy from others. I studied and studied and studied and prayed in the spirit and asked God for the truth. What I write about that passes is from MY OWN study, not others. However, it does come straight from the scripture. I add nothing nor take away nothing.  You (or someone else) hinted that I just parrot what others have written and had not done my homework.  That was simply not true.  

This scripture completely refutes any notion of a pre-tribulation rapture. 

It is, of course, fiction.  What you should have said is that you cannot find any notion of a pretrib rapture. And you won't until you take off your preconceived glasses and just read what is there.  MILLIONS of believers have found a pretrib rapture in the scriptures.

My guess is, you have not found TWO coming signs in the sun and moon, imagining all scriptures of these signs are speaking of ONE instance. 

My guess is, you have not found TWO MORE comings of our Lord, either, imagining all scriptures about His coming are about ONE event. 

All I can say is, you may not be ready when He comes pretrib FOR His church, for He is coming for those who are EXPECTING Him.  If therefore you are left behind, it will not be because I did not tell you the truth! 

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2 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

I'm sorry Iamlamad, but I have to laugh at your attempts to take two rather self-explanatory statements of Paul and wrest them to teach something altogether different. It is just this type of foolishness that has led to so many sects, teaching all kinds of strange doctrines, among those who call themselves Christians.

The doctrine of the "partial rest". Really?

Or, the doctrine of "the apostasia means the rapture". You got to be kidding! There isn't a single example in all of Koine Greek literature where apostasia is used meaning a physical departure. In every known use of the word in the 6 centuries of Koine Greek, it always referred to a religious departure (falling away) or a political departure. There is no evidence that it was ever even once used to indicate a physical departure. However, you and many other pretribulationists are so desperate to find a pre-trib rapture in the Scriptures that you will seemingly stoop to any level to convince others that you are correct.

May the Lord have mercy and open the eyes of His people to recognize wresting of the Scriptures like this.

All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lord Jesus Christ

 

 

No, I am not kidding. Since you don't believe, lets agree to ask Paul when we get there. 

What you imagine is "wresting" the scriptures is really understanding the INTENT of the Author, the Holy Spirit. 

You wish to accuse me, but you have never once attempted to answer my question: in 2 thes. 2:3. last half of the verse: IS THE MAN OF SIN REVEALED?

A yes or no answer would be great.

Can you give a reasonable answer as to WHY those martyrs in seal 5 are not in complete rest, but are really wanting to see God avenge their blood?  You do understand, they are in heaven, right?  Perhaps if you were martyred, you too would wish to see your blood avenged by the God that said vengeance is His. 

Edited by iamlamad

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1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

No, I am not kidding. Since you don't believe, lets agree to ask Paul when we get there. 

What you imagine is "wresting" the scriptures is really understanding the INTENT of the Author, the Holy Spirit. 

You wish to accuse me, but you have never once attempted to answer my question: in 2 thes. 2:3. last half of the verse: IS THE MAN OF SIN REVEALED?

A yes or no answer would be great.

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

2Th 2:1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Let me state this as simply as possible: Paul tells the Thessalonians that they need not fear that the persecution that they were facing is the unprecedented persecution (great tribulation) that precedes the coming of Christ. He tells them that the day of Christ is not at hand (near in time). Paul then mentions two conditions which must be met before the day of Christ can be near in time. He says the day of Christ which is the coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto Him shall not come until the apostasia (falling away or departure from the faith that Jesus said would take place ["many shall be offended" Matt 24:9-10] in association with the unprecedented persecution and great deception of the "great tribulation") and the revelation of the man of sin which happens when he sits in the rebuilt temple and demands to be worshipped as God initiating the unprecedented persecution of the elect (Matt 24:15).

No, Iamlamad, the man of sin has not been revealed yet. There presently is no temple for him in which to sit and shew himself to be God. Daniel tells us that this takes place in the midst of the week.

Praise Jesus

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