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Heb 13:8

The context of 1 Thess 5:1

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1 hour ago, Da Puppers said:

It seems to me that if you are going to say that:

*[[Mat 24:31]] KJV* And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall GATHER TOGETHER his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Is not about the rapture,  but is about a separate event of  gathering together [episunago], then 2 Thess 2 must also be about the timing of the gathering together [not the rapture].  

*[[2Th 2:1]] KJV* Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our GATHERING TOGETHER  unto him,

Therefore,  2 Thess 2 cannot be used to say that it has anything to do with the  timing  of the rapture, relative to the falling away or the revelation of the man of sin.   Paul is referring to the timing of "that [one]  day", not those days, meaning "the coming" & "our gathering".  If the word "our" includes the church, then the timing of "our" gathering,  must coincide with "our" rapture.

Blessings

The PuP 

I agree, 2 Thess 2 is also in reference to the second coming at the end of 70th week.

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On 7/3/2018 at 11:04 PM, Heb 13:8 said:

If they are in peace and repent prior to the 70th week, then I see a contradiction with the beasts of the earth.

 

No one said they were in Peace, you are reading the prophecy wrong. Prophesies have "STAGES". Take the Daniel 11 prophecy, some people think that Antiochus Epiphanes is still the KOTN in verses 36-45 because they cant understand the different stages of the prophecy. Likewise, the prophesies stating Israel will have peace no doubt stretch into the 1000 year reign, but that doesn't mean they will not go through the Tribulation period to get there. All Prophetic uttering's do not cover the same details. Most of those Ezekiel Prophesies fail to cover the Troubles we are told Israel must go through. This is why multiple passages have to be used, line upon line, here a little there a little.

Malachi 4:5-6 tells us that Israel repents BEFORE the DOTL. Whereas many of those Ezekiel passages just tel the big picture but do not get into the minutia. Once again, how does Israel know to Flee Judea if they have not already repented? Its just common sense, ADDED to Malachi 4:5-6. We see in Zechariah Israel repents BEFORE chapter 14. We see in Daniel 12 that the AoD happens BEFORE Jerusalem is Conquered at the 1260, thus Jesus tells the Jews to Flee before they get Conquered in full. 

The 1/3 are tried by the fire.......Well how can this be true if Jesus SAVES THEM at the end? Its not true, they are PURIFIED by the Blood and they BELIEVE the Lambs Holy Word and Flee Judea. Thus they are tried by fire, via TRUSTING THE LAMB Jesus. 

REMEMBER.......CHAPTERS & VERSES WERE ADDED !!

Zechariah 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

Verses 1 & 2 is the Anti-Christ Conquering Jerusalem (FIRST SEAL) and verses 3 and 4 is Jesus Conquering the Anti-Christ and his Wicked Minions at Armageddon. Both happen AFTER Zechariah 13:9 where Israel has already repented and are being tried by fire.

3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

They REPENT DURING the 70th Week, just before the First Seal is opened and are thus protected for 1260 days, just like Rev. ch. 12 says.

On 7/3/2018 at 11:04 PM, Heb 13:8 said:

Eze 34:25 “ ‘I will make a covenant of peace with them and rid the land of savage beasts so that they may live in the wilderness and sleep in the forests in safety.

Hos 2:18 In that day I will make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field, the birds in the sky and the creatures that move along the ground. Bow and sword and battle I will abolish from the land, so that all may lie down in safety.

Rev 6:7-9 When the Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, “Come!” 8I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.

If they were repenting prior to the seals then why are they re-building the third temple for the antichrist?

No one is building a Temple for an Anti-Christ, that is just not reality brother. Why do you suppose this is reality? I think Israel starts rebuilding the Temple for the God they have always known, at the 1335, which is 75 days before the Anti-Christ comes forth the Two-witnesses show up and turn Israel back unto God.....In other words (Zechariah 12:10) Israel finally SEE Jesus is their Messiah and REPENT, 45 days before the 1290 (AoD) and 75 days before the 1260 Event which is the DOTL, or Gods Wrath, in which Jesus releases the Ant-Christ to go forth Conquering the World/Jerusalem. 

At the 1290 the False Prophet makes an Image of the Beast and places it in the Temple before the Anti-Christ even Conquers Jerusalem. When the 1/3 of Israeli Jews start worshiping Jesus in the Temple what is going to happen? THINK INTERNAL CIVIL WAR !! You have a lot of Jews who DETEST any Jew who turns to Christianity, so this False Prophet is going to be of that ilk, I think he will be the High Priest and he will be as Jason the Hellenized High Priest of Antiochus Epohphanes fame who tried to Hellenize Jerusalem in his day, he even bribed Antiochus to get the job and had his own brother Onias III Killed. 

The Anti-Christ is never accepted as the King of Israel. He might be accepted by some, but not Israel, the 1/3 who are Israel will flee Judea. I don't think hes accepted by anyone but a few higher ups, just like Jason and some accepted Antiochus, but the Maccabean Revolt took care of that eventually. 

On 7/3/2018 at 11:04 PM, Heb 13:8 said:

So them "showing up" is them prophesying more than 1260 days? 😲

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No, they start their Ministry 75 days before the Anti-Christ Conquers Jerusalem to become the Beast, thus they DIE 75 Days before he dies. But Rev. 11 shows us Jesus taking back control of this world, even after the Two-witnesses die, at the 7th Vial. 

Rev. 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

The Two-Witnesses die at the 2nd Woe. The 7th Angel Sounding is the 3rd Woe (ALL 7 Vials are the 3rd Woe). They Prophesy 1260 days, but PRAYERS they prayed bring down the 3rd Woe so the UNDERSTANDING is extended until the end when Jesus Returns and retakes control of the earth. 

On 7/3/2018 at 11:04 PM, Heb 13:8 said:

No, the word "for" is a conjuction describing what precedes it, which is the Gospel, the elect, the patriarchs.

HELPS Word-studies
1063 gár (a conjunction) – for. While "for" is usually the best translation of 1063 (gár), its sense is shaped by the preceding statement – the "A" statement which precedes the 1063 (gár) statement in the "A-B" unit.

Quibbling word meanings here change nothing brother. Israel were called and that calling like all of Gods callings are without repentance, BUT.......God chose to Blind Israel IN PART (Meaning some Jews would SEE, like Paul, Peter and today's Messianic Jews) until the Time of the Gentile CALLING is completed by the Rapture, then God will take the blindness away and Israel will SEE AGAIN. 

On 7/3/2018 at 11:04 PM, Heb 13:8 said:

Then why is Israel the subject of those passages. As for the rest of mankind, their sins are atoned for at the cross, Rom 10:9.

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Because Paul is WARNING THE Romans not to get the big head thinking as the Jews did, read Romans chapters 9-11, they all three go together. Hes trying to teach the Romans a LESSON !!

Hes writing to the Romans and says this:

Romans 9:2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. 3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. 

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

Now God did not HATE ESAU, this word is liken unto Jesus telling us we must HATE our parents, its a Misnomer. It means he LOVED Esau less. Likewise Jesus tells us we must love Jesus MORE than our own parents, but hes not ever telling us to hate our parents, BUT.......this is very important, this is about the ELDER (Israel) serving the YOUNGER (CHURCH) if you understand it in full. 

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. 26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? (WHY).....Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Paul is TEACHING THE ROMANS the Mistake Israel made, they sought Righteousness via the LAW and not by FAITH !! He is telling the Romans God deals with people in His own way, the ELDER (ESAU/Israel) will serve the YOUNGER (Jacob/Church). Do not do as the Israelis did KEEP THE FAITH !!

 

Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. 2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

Paul is TRYING TO TEACH THE Romans here, we all must come unto God BY FAITH !! Don't forget why the Jews lost their MANTLE as Gods people. Its nothing you did SPECIAL as all. 

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. 19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. 20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. 21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Paul again is showing the Romans how this was FORETOLD in scriptures !! God stated He would FORSAKE Israel (Ezekiel 37 amongst many passages) and chose another peoples. (Gentile Church).

 

Romans 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. 

Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. 7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. 15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

 

LESSON FOR ROMANS HERE !!  WARNING TO THE GENTILE CHURCH HERE !!

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Paul warns the Romans NOT TO BOAST as if God cut off Israel and preferred them, God cut of Israel because of their UNBELIEF and Paul warns them if you stop believing God will also CUT YOU OFF !! Don't be PROUD or HIGH MINDED.

 

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.  24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

So Israel will be grafted back in.........When they BELIEVE AGAIN !! And that happens BEFORE the DOTL at the 1260 Event.

 

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Paul is WARNING THE ROMANS that Israel were Blinded until the Gentiles time is come full, but if you stray you will also become BLINDED. But in the end, ALL ISRAEL will be saved, not every Jew, but Israel as a Nation will turn back unto God. As per the COVENANT you keep referring to, that Covenant was Christ Jesus' Blood that was shed 2000 years ago, but its not SEALED until Israel accept Jesus as their Messiah. Jesus' blood does not cover our sons until we accept it and REPENT, the same applies to Israel as a Nation. The Covenant will not be SEALED until they accept Christ as their Messiah.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

God is going to use the Church to REACH Israel, that is our END TIMES JOB, they see our Love towards them, they don't accept until AFTER we have been Raptured however. God is going to have Mercy on Israel in the END TIMES. 

Paul is JUXTAPOSING Israel's failings with the Churches coming mission, teaching the Romans LESSONS. 

On 7/3/2018 at 11:04 PM, Heb 13:8 said:

No, the law and Jesus shed blood are polar opposite. We are now in the better covenant for those who believe, Heb 8:6, Heb 11:39-40. God bless.

Read Galatians chapter 3, the LAW was ADDED 430 years AFTER the PROMISE to ABRAHAM !! The Promise was ALWAYS the SEED (Jesus). The Law was added after Abraham's DEATH.

God Bless.

 

 

 

Edited by Revelation Man

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6 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

It seems to me that if you are going to say that:

*[[Mat 24:31]] KJV* And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall GATHER TOGETHER his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Is not about the rapture,  but is about a separate event of  gathering together [episunago], then 2 Thess 2 must also be about the timing of the gathering together [not the rapture].  

*[[2Th 2:1]] KJV* Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our GATHERING TOGETHER  unto him,

Therefore,  2 Thess 2 cannot be used to say that it has anything to do with the  timing  of the rapture, relative to the falling away or the revelation of the man of sin.   Paul is referring to the timing of "that [one]  day", not those days, meaning "the coming" & "our gathering".  If the word "our" includes the church, then the timing of "our" gathering,  must coincide with "our" rapture.

Blessings

The PuP 

Its clearly the Departing of the Church. 

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7 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

No one said they were in Peace, you are reading the prophecy wrong.

RM, you had stated that they find peace after they repent, and you said they repent prior to the 70th week. Correct?

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the prophesies stating Israel will have peace no doubt stretch into the 1000 year reign, but that doesn't mean they will not go through the Tribulation period to get there.

Malachi 4:5-6 tells us that Israel repents BEFORE the DOTL.

How is fleeing into the mountains to avoid the antichrist peaceful? If they've repented then why are they re-building the third temple for the antichrist?

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Once again, how does Israel know to Flee Judea if they have not already repented?
 

They've read Dan 9. Did Israel repent after they listened to God in Exod 14. No, they instead worshiped a golden calf in Exod 32.

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The 1/3 are tried by the fire.......Well how can this be true if Jesus SAVES THEM at the end?

Because the end is the end.

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No one is building a Temple for an Anti-Christ, that is just not reality brother. Why do you suppose this is reality?

2 Thess 2:4, Rev 11:1-2 ( naos )

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Israel were called and that calling like all of Gods callings are without repentance

Rom 11:28-29 is referring to the calling of the elect, not Israel.

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until the Tim of the Gentile CALLING is completed by the Rapture, then God will take the blindness away and they will SEE AGAIN.

Do you believe that not every believer will be a martyr in the 70th week?

Rom 11:25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in (eiserchomai),

eiserchomai: to go in (to), enter
Original Word: εἰσέρχομαι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: eiserchomai
Phonetic Spelling: (ice-er'-khom-ahee)
Short Definition: I go in, come in, enter
Definition: I go in, come in, enter.
HELPS Word-studies

1525 eisérxomai (from 1519 /eis, "into, unto" and 2064/erxomai, "come") – properly, come into, go (enter) into; (figuratively) to enter into for an important purpose – for the believer, doing so to experience the result of the Lord's eternal blessing.

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So Israel will be grafted back in.........When they BELIEVE AGAIN !! And that happens BEFORE the DOTL at the 1260 Event.

It seems to me that Israel is being delivered from the dragon in the latter 3.5 years.

Rom 11:26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: "The deliverer (rhuomai) will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.

Rev 12:14-16 The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach. 15Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. 16But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.

rhuomai: to draw to oneself, i.e. deliver
Original Word: ῥύομαι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: rhuomai
Phonetic Spelling: (rhoo'-om-ahee)
Short Definition: I rescue
Definition: I rescue, deliver (from danger or destruction).

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Read Galatians chapter 3, the LAW was ADDED 430 years AFTER the PROMISE to ABRAHAM !! The Promise was ALWAYS the SEED (Jesus). The Law was added after Abraham's DEATH.

The law doesn't keep a believer saved, the blood of Christ does.

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28 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

Its clearly the Departing of the Church. 

No, Matt 24:31 and 2 Thess 2 are referring to the second coming, not rapture.

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10 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:

Well, the rapture and the second coming are seven years apart. Matt 24:31 is not a harpazo, it's an episunagó.

You all (rapturist)say that,why is it you never take in account that those days were cut short?Fact is the time is cut to 5 months,ie,the time of the locust.

Bottom line,ain't no rapture...

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13 minutes ago, n2thelight said:

You all (rapturist)say that,why is it you never take in account that those days were cut short?Fact is the time is cut to 5 months,ie,the time of the locust.

Bottom line,ain't no rapture...

Cut short is referring to not going longer than the latter 3.5 years. Rapture is in 1 Thess 4:17, Rev 12:5.

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10 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:

Well, the rapture and the second coming are seven years apart. Matt 24:31 is not a harpazo, it's an episunagó.

Why would you need signs of His 2nd coming if you knew it it was 7 years after this rapture?

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41 minutes ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

"Rapture is in 1 Thess 4:17"

 

You are correct

and also Rev 12:5

32 minutes ago, n2thelight said:

Why would you need signs of His 2nd coming if you knew it it was 7 years after this rapture?

We don't.

1 Cor 1:22-23 Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 

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