The Pretrib Rapture: An Entitlement for the Privileged Few?

[Last Daze]

4 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

So are all elders or seniors as you say, all are blameless, the husband of one wife, with obedient children.  This is what differentiates between one who is qualified to help lead the flock, and one who is not able to lead the flock, no matter what their age.  So your definition does not make the grade.

Have a great life Marv.

[Marilyn C]

18 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Hi Marilyn,

I'm not sure if this is a bump in the road necessarily but I think we need to come to a common understanding concerning the difference between judgment and wrath before proceeding.  I'll describe how I understand the terms and you can agree / disagree.

• Judgment - a determination that has been made which may or may not involves consequences.  God's judgments are ultimate and reflect His view on a matter and are always true and righteous.  God's judgments are not exclusively for the ungodly.  The letters to the seven churches in Revelation 2 & 3 contain judgments.  Some of those judgments involve corrective discipline and consequences.  1 Peter 4:17 tells us that judgment begins with the household of God.  There is also judgment of the ungodly.
• Wrath - simply put is anger.  What causes God to become angry is persistent rebellion against His righteous judgments.  Those who agree with His judgments and repent of their rebellion are forgiven.  Those who persist in rejecting His judgments cause Him to become angry and become the objects of His wrath.

I wanted to make that distinction because too often the two terms, along with "tribulation" are erroneously seen as the same thing.  They are all different words and need to be rightly divided.

Hi Last Daze,

Yes, I agree that it`s probably not a bump in the road, but a side road where you pull off to have a look out. So let`s see what we can see.

So as we know the OT prophets were given God`s purposes then we can see some of this there.

`Is this not laid up in store with me, sealed up among my treasures? Vengeance is mine, and recompense......

For l lift my hand to heaven, and say, “As I live forever if I whet my glittering sword, and my hand takes hold on judgment, I will render vengeance to my enemies, and repay those who hate me.....

Rejoice, O Gentiles with His people, for He will avenge the blood of His servants, and render vengeance to His adversaries; He will provide atonement for His land and His people.” (Deut. 32: 34 & 35,  40 & 41,  & 43)

Direct Statements.

1. God has laid up and sealed His vengeance & recompense.

2.God`s (right) hand executes judgment upon His enemies.

3.(Some) Gentiles will rejoice as God provides atonement for His people, & land of Israel.

 

This scripture, (in Deut) I believe refers to Ps. 110.

The Lord, (God the Father) said to my lord, (Christ), “ Sit at my right hand till I make your enemies your footstool……

The Lord, is  at your right hand, He shall execute kings in the day of His wrath, He shall judge among the nations,…` (Ps. 110: 1 & 5)

 

Marilyn.

 

(BTW we will get to the 24 elders further along this track.)

 

[Dennis1209]

2 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

(BTW we will get to the 24 elders further along this track.)

There is indeed a great variance of who or what these 24 elders represent. The two most popular top opinions I see are:

[1] The 12 Apostles + the twelve tribe leaders of Israel.

[2] A representation of the raptured church.

I personally lean heavily to number two. 

 

[Mike Mclees]

• No where in scripture does it ever say there is privileged saints who don't suffer and unprivileged saints who must suffer  antichrist persecution and Gods wrath for seven years because the were not found worthy of the pre saints.  seriously

Who are these privileged few. What gave them such a privilege.  It sounds arrogant and high minded. No proud mad will enter the kingdom

Edited August 4, 2018 by Mike Mclees

[Mike Mclees]

On ‎8‎/‎2‎/‎2018 at 9:35 PM, Marilyn C said:

Hi fellas,

I thought I`d just make a comment here upon the elders having crowns. We know that crowns means royal authority and only the Lord Jesus Christ can confer that on any one as He is Lord of Lords and King of Kings. We also need to realise that the Lord has many crowns and the one in question in Rev 4 & 5 refers to His crown in the Highest position of the created order. He was always a king, - king of heaven, king of glory, king of the ages, king of Judah, king of Israel, etc.

regards, Marilyn.

We must understand this all in the spirit.  If he has a crown for me it really belongs to Him. The only reward I want is for Him to say to me "well done thow good and faithful servant inter in to the kingdom." 

[Marilyn C]

Hi Last Daze,

 

The new throne, (authority, rulership) set in the angelic realm.

 

`...behold a throne set in heaven, and .....like jasper and a sardius stone in appearance;....` (Rev. 4: 2 & 3)

 

Direct Statements.

 

1.A new authority is set up in the angelic realm.

2.The rulership is a king. (throne)

3. The rulership involves a priest also. (Jasper and sardius precious stones represent the first and last gems on the high priest`s breastplate.)

4.The rulership is a priest upon His throne - a kingpriest.

 

 

 

Whose authority.

 

The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one in unity, equality and unanimity, (one mindness) Then, in function we see a hierarchy to fulfil their purposes.

Godhead  - At the source there is the provision by the whole Godhead,

 

Father - with the initial movement of the Father;

Son - the administration of the Son;

Holy Spirit - and the direct agency of the Holy Spirit.

 

 

`...in the midst of the throne and the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent into all the earth. Then He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.` (Rev. 5: 6 & 7)

 

Direct Statements.

 

1.The Father, the Son, & Holy Spirit, the Godhead are all involved with this `new` rulership.

2.The Father initiates - giving the scroll to His Son.

3.The Son administers - took the scroll, (& executes the judgments).

4.The Holy Spirit is the direct agency - seven (fold) spirit of God sent out.

 

 Marilyn.

[Last Daze]

On 8/4/2018 at 3:58 AM, Marilyn C said:

Hi Last Daze,

Yes, I agree that it`s probably not a bump in the road, but a side road where you pull off to have a look out. So let`s see what we can see.

So as we know the OT prophets were given God`s purposes then we can see some of this there.

`Is this not laid up in store with me, sealed up among my treasures? Vengeance is mine, and recompense......

For l lift my hand to heaven, and say, “As I live forever if I whet my glittering sword, and my hand takes hold on judgment, I will render vengeance to my enemies, and repay those who hate me.....

Rejoice, O Gentiles with His people, for He will avenge the blood of His servants, and render vengeance to His adversaries; He will provide atonement for His land and His people.” (Deut. 32: 34 & 35,  40 & 41,  & 43)

 

Hi Marilyn,

My point in clarifying the difference between judgment and wrath is to show that not all  judgment is hell fire and brimstone.  There is a group that erroneously identifies "tribulation", "judgment", and "wrath" as synonyms.  They do so because that kind of terminology confusion serves to further a narrative that they prefer, not because it's factual.  It's important that the distinction between the terms be understood.

Did you want to include these verses in Deuteronomy 32 or are you just poking fun at my methodology?

[Last Daze]

On 8/5/2018 at 3:25 AM, Marilyn C said:

Hi Last Daze,

 

The new throne, (authority, rulership) set in the angelic realm.

 

`...behold a throne set in heaven, and .....like jasper and a sardius stone in appearance;....` (Rev. 4: 2 & 3)

 

Direct Statements.

 

1.A new authority is set up in the angelic realm.

2.The rulership is a king. (throne)

3. The rulership involves a priest also. (Jasper and sardius precious stones represent the first and last gems on the high priest`s breastplate.)

4.The rulership is a priest upon His throne - a kingpriest.

 

 

 

Whose authority.

 

The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one in unity, equality and unanimity, (one mindness) Then, in function we see a hierarchy to fulfil their purposes.

Godhead  - At the source there is the provision by the whole Godhead,

 

Father - with the initial movement of the Father;

Son - the administration of the Son;

Holy Spirit - and the direct agency of the Holy Spirit.

 

 

`...in the midst of the throne and the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent into all the earth. Then He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.` (Rev. 5: 6 & 7)

 

Direct Statements.

 

1.The Father, the Son, & Holy Spirit, the Godhead are all involved with this `new` rulership.

2.The Father initiates - giving the scroll to His Son.

3.The Son administers - took the scroll, (& executes the judgments).

4.The Holy Spirit is the direct agency - seven (fold) spirit of God sent out.

 

 Marilyn.

Hi Marilyn,

In reading Rev 4, I don't get the sense that the throne being depicted is a new  throne.

We know from reading Revelation that the seals lead to the return of Jesus who will exercise dominion over the nations.  I agree that the scroll represents all authority in heaven and on earth which was given to Jesus after He overcame sin and death.  He was found worthy to take the scroll.  The opening of the seals describes how things will unfold before He returns.  Care must be taken to identify tribulation, judgment, and wrath in their respective contexts in order to get a clear picture.

[Marilyn C]

18 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Hi Marilyn,

My point in clarifying the difference between judgment and wrath is to show that not all  judgment is hell fire and brimstone.  There is a group that erroneously identifies "tribulation", "judgment", and "wrath" as synonyms.  They do so because that kind of terminology confusion serves to further a narrative that they prefer, not because it's factual.  It's important that the distinction between the terms be understood.

Did you want to include these verses in Deuteronomy 32 or are you just poking fun at my methodology?

Hi Last Daze,

My sincere apologies for any misunderstanding, and I don`t understand why you would see that. 

Marilyn.

 

[Marilyn C]

18 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Hi Marilyn,

In reading Rev 4, I don't get the sense that the throne being depicted is a new  throne.

We know from reading Revelation that the seals lead to the return of Jesus who will exercise dominion over the nations.  I agree that the scroll represents all authority in heaven and on earth which was given to Jesus after He overcame sin and death.  He was found worthy to take the scroll.  The opening of the seals describes how things will unfold before He returns.  Care must be taken to identify tribulation, judgment, and wrath in their respective contexts in order to get a clear picture.

Hi Last Daze,

 

So would you care to do your Direct Statements from those scriptures, please?

Marilyn.