Limited Atonement - is it Biblical?

[EricH]

Theologians that agree with me on unlimited atonement?  Or you mean in general?  In general, I'm basically fundamental evangelical dispensational.  But even among that group some of my perspectives are only held by a small remnant... Every now and then I run across a like-mind.

I was thinking specifically of the unlimited atonement, but also your views on what is applicable to us today from the Gospels and OT. What is interesting from an historical perspective, is that dispensationalism was relatively late on the scene.

What makes you think I believe that?  I believe the punishment for sin has always been eternal death/separation from God.  I said, precisely, that Adam was delivered from the judgement of eternal death that he brought upon himself... This was mercy based on the Cross.

Maybe I have misunderstood you. But you seem to be saying that the only way God could have not "laid down the smack" for Adam and Eve with physical death, is if the crucifixion had taken place and was retroactive. If that is true, it would seem to me that you see physical death as in intergal part of the sentence. I guess my question for you would be given that you believe Adam was rescued from eternal death, were all in the OT so delivered, or was there a pre-requisite for inclusion? What tells you Adam was so delivered?

In your opinion, how could God be just and withhold judgement at the same time apart from the Sacrifice of the Cross?

I don't think He is witholding the judgment He prescribed. Namely separation from God. All humans are born under that sentence sentence. Jesus said we have been judged already. Paul said we were formerly dead in our sin. All have been since Adam. So God is not witholding anything. Sentence has been passed. It is up to Him on the timing of when it is declared final. That does not diminish His justice in any way. There was no timing restriction imposed by Him on when the full weight would be realized. Only that it (death) would immediately occur.

So, you believe Adam and Eve are in hell right now suffering eternal separation from God?  If not, then they did not suffer the punishment of eternal death as God said they would.

That is a good question that I was thinking about Sunday night. I believe the minute they commited the sin they were under the sentence of separation and their bodies subject to decay. Whether Christ'd death was effective for their sin would depend if they were obedient to the covenant they were under governing the promise(subsequent to the sentence). Christ's atonement was effective for all those who entered the promisary covenant in the way God described in the administrative covenant governing them. In other words, the fall rendered the relationship broken. A subsequent covenant would correct the relationship, by governing the way people entered into the covenant of promise. Just like today. We are under the new covenant (administrative covenant), which governs the same promise. Not all who are born will be rescued from the sentence. Only those who enter by the current administrative covenant governing the promise.

Ok.  What study tools do you use?

I use Bible works 4.0 for my lexical work. If I had to pick a systematic theology that I am most comfortable with, it would be Wayne Grudem's. I would characterize my self as a Evangelical Covenant Theologian. I have several commentaries on each book of the bible that I consult on a regular basis. My practical theology was most impacted by a group called the Navigators. My hermeneutic was impacted by my classes at Trinity Divinity School

The good news about this discussion is that you and I agree on the final result. The question is at what point election takes place. I believe that election is prior to atonement (Christ only atones for the elect.) You believe that election takes place after the atonement (Christ atoned for all, but only the elect will be saved.)

At the end of the day, we both believe only the elect will be saved, and were pre-chosen by God. When I am thinking throug an issue like this I like to read through all the pertinent passages and study the applicable language structures. Once I have formed an opinion, I consult theologies and commentaries to see if I have missed anything. I do respect the fact that your theological system is so well thought out and internally consistent.

[Trust & Obey]

I've just started looking into this topic and was wondering what everyone's take on it was.I don't want to start a debate or anything,but if anyone wants to give me their view and back it up with Scripture it would be much appreciated. Thankyou. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Jesus' sacrifice atoned for the sins of all who would put their trust in Him. His death isn't only for a select few, but rather it is for "the whole world." But, one must appropriate this gift in order to be a beneficiary of the gift.

So, no, limited atonement isn't a biblical concept.

I could buy pizza for everyone in my office and leave all of it in the conference room. I could announce that "all who hunger may come and freely eat." But, only those who get up take action will actually get their belly filled. So, even though the pizza was "for everybody," not everybody will enjoy it because they did not appropriate the gift for themselves.

[truthnluv]

I was thinking specifically of the unlimited atonement, but also your views on what is applicable to us today from the Gospels and OT. What is interesting from an historical perspective, is that dispensationalism was relatively late on the scene.

The statement that dispensationalism was late on the scene is extremely misleading. Ever since Constantine declared Rome to be Christian there has been rampant error and ignorance of the truth. This began shortly after the apostles died and lasted more than 1000 years until the reformation. And even then things didn't become perfect... There is still rampant error and ignorance of the truth.

By your standards salvation by grace through faith alone is late on the scene. Reading the Bible for yourself is late on the scene. Confessing your sins directly to God is late on the scene. Etc. For the most part, most truth has been inaccesible until "recently".

Maybe I have misunderstood you. But you seem to be saying that the only way God could have not "laid down the smack" for Adam and Eve with physical death, is if the crucifixion had taken place and was retroactive. If that is true, it would seem to me that you see physical death as in intergal part

Edited June 4, 2005 by truthnluv

[EricH]

I echo your prayer as well. I was going to qualify my statements on the order of things. When I was speaking of election happening before or after the atonement I wasn't speaking temporally, but more logically. I just couldn't figure out how to phrase it with out using the term after or before.

Agree with you totally that God's election is part of His eternal decrees. What I should have said is that form me God elected those whom He atoned. For you He atoned all and elected a few. Maybe that is more accurate

[EricH]

The statement that dispensationalism was late on the scene is extremely misleading.  Ever since Constantine declared Rome to be Christian there has been rampant error and ignorance of the truth.  This began shortly after the apostles died and lasted more than 1000 years until the reformation.  And even then things didn't become perfect... There is still rampant error and ignorance of the truth.

By your standards salvation by grace through faith alone is late on the scene.  Reading the Bible for yourself is late on the scene.  Confessing your sins directly to God is late on the scene.  Etc.  For the most part, most truth has been inaccesible  until "recently".

I thought about this after I typed it and realized the statement didn't prove anything. My implication is that if something is recent it must be wrong. That was fallacious on my part. I apologize

I'm saying that whatever the punishment for sin was, nobody would have been able to escape from that punishment without the Cross.

I agree totally. I just don't agree that instant physical death was ever a part of that punishment. Being subject to decay is. That has not been removed

The moment God removes that judgement from someone He is, in effect, withholding it.  Would you agree with that?

They are two different terms (witholding and removing). Witholding implies to me a delay. Removing means to set it aside completely.

Ok, but with believers the full weight of the punishment never occurs.  This is because Christ has already tasted death for every man.

Agree with half of what you said. Believers will never feel the full weight. Because Christ has already tasted death for them. Unbelievers will feel the full wieght

[truthnluv]

I thought about this after I typed it and realized the statement didn't prove anything. My implication is that if something is recent it must be wrong. That was fallacious on my part. I apologize

No problem.

I agree totally. I just don't agree that instant physical death was ever a part of that punishment. Being subject to decay is. That has not been removed

Oh, I don't think that. I believe the actual phrase in the Greek is, "The day that you eat of it dying ye shall die". Correct me if I'm wrong.

They are two different terms (witholding and removing). Witholding implies to me a delay. Removing means to set it aside completely.

I'd be willing to go along with either word. I was thinking of withholding in a permanent sense, but either word is fine with me.

Agree with half of what you said. Believers will never feel the full weight. Because Christ has already tasted death for them. Unbelievers will feel the full wieght

But they're getting alot of perks in the meantime. What's up with that(smile)?

It reminds me of Abraham's words to the rich man in hell... He told him that he had a wonderful life full of pleasure while on earth, therefore, he had recieved his consolation... Unbelievers are enjoying lots of consolation prizes on their way to hell... lots of mercy and grace.

Do you think that would be possible without the Cross?

Truthnluv

[visionary]

You can not talk about atonement, unless you understand it in it proper setting.

There is only one piece of furniture that you will find in the Holy of Holies. In holy of holies, where is centered the symbolic service of atonement and intercession. It is the foreshadow of our future, Yeshua ministering as our High Priest before the mercy seat.

Exodus 25:17 And thou shalt make a mercy seat of pure gold: two cubits and a half shall be the length thereof, and a cubit and a half the breadth thereof. 18 And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat. 19 And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: even of the mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof 20 And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be. 21 And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee. 22 And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.

The ministry of Yeshua before He returns is conducted in the Most Holy Place before the mercy seat. This final ministry forms the connecting link that helps you understand Revelation. The final ministry reveals the relationship between heaven and earthly events in the last days. It can be better understood in the light of the Fall feasts. Through the spiritual feasts that He has prepared for His children, God tells us how He will work out the final details of our salvation. Our God is a merciful, loving, longsuffering God who wishes all His Children to come home. God is the King of Kings and God of all the kingdoms, who has created us for His purpose. Our creator is calling us home.

Isaiah 37:16 O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, that dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth: thou hast made heaven and earth.

Ezekiel saw the throne of God and described it this way.

Ezekiel 10:1Then I looked, and, behold, in the firmament that was above the head of the cherubims there appeared over them as it were a sapphire stone, as the appearance of the likeness of a throne.

This was where the ark of the covenant that housed the tables of stone, upon which God Himself had inscribed the Ten Commandments is found in the heavenly sanctuary. You may have heard it called the ark of God's testament, or the ark of the covenant.

Edited June 4, 2005 by visionary

[visionary]

God never does "limited" not even in His atonement.

Yom Kippur

26 The LORD said to Moses, 27 "The tenth day of this seventh month is the Yom Kippur. Hold a sacred assembly and deny yourselves, and present an offering made to the LORD by fire. 28 Do no work on that day, because it is the Yom Kippur, when atonement is made for you before the LORD your God. 29 Anyone who does not deny himself on that day must be cut off from his people. 30 I will destroy from among his people anyone who does any work on that day. 31 You shall do no work at all. This is to be a lasting ordinance for the generations to come, wherever you live. 32 It is a sabbath of rest for you, and you must deny yourselves. From the evening of the ninth day of the month until the following evening you are to observe your sabbath."

[book_wirm]

God never does "limited" not even in His atonement.

26 The LORD said to Moses, 27 "The tenth day of this seventh month is the Yom Kippur. Hold a sacred assembly and deny yourselves, and present an offering made to the LORD by fire. 28 Do no work on that day, because it is the Yom Kippur, when atonement is made for you before the LORD your God. 29 Anyone who does not deny himself on that day must be cut off from his people. 30 I will destroy from among his people anyone who does any work on that day. 31 You shall do no work at all. This is to be a lasting ordinance for the generations to come, wherever you live. 32 It is a sabbath of rest for you, and you must deny yourselves. From the evening of the ninth day of the month until the following evening you are to observe your sabbath."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I guess I'm not entirely sure what your point is here...I see in this that atonement was made for a limited group, unless you think this Yom Kippur was also effective and intended for the Gentile nations. Why then is Christ's death expected to be for any others than His people?

In Christ,

Eric