Salvation and Sin

[turtletwo]

Sometimes words that are being translated into English don't come out as clearly as would be optimal. This can cause confusion. Perhaps that is part of the issue here. I have heard several Bible teachers say what comes out as being 'perfect' in our language actually means (in the original) mature or complete.

For example, in Matthew 5:48 “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” The word we have as perfect comes from the Greek word "Teleios"

The Vines Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words defines it as “signifies having reached its end (telos), finished, complete, perfect.”

The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon    (Strong's) 

Definitions include:

brought to its end, finished

wanting nothing necessary to completeness

full grown, adult, of full age, mature

In Summary: 

Perfect does not always translate as 'sinless'

 

 

 

 

Edited September 26, 2018 by turtletwo
formatting

[John_Leung]

On 9/18/2018 at 10:04 PM, JohnKing67 said:

And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Do you believe that this verse teaches that redemption means no more sin?  How do you interpret this verse?

Not "no more sin" but to make the choice of not to sin anymore, at least no more adultery, in this case. 

We'd still stumble and sin as believers, but we know that sinning is wrong, against our conscience, and disrespects God, so we are to turn to Him immediately when do stumble so He can help us.  It's also a love response--a notion to show taht you still ove and respect Him even when you stumble.  

[JohnKing67]

On ‎9‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 2:18 PM, maryjayne said:

so very true. We are complete in God, on earth, the way were were created to be, not sinless

I don't quite understand this view because the first man and woman were created to be sinless, and when they sinned they lost the Garden of Eden and damaged their relationship with God. Did God's attitude toward sin change from the OT to the NT?

Edited September 27, 2018 by JohnKing67

[JohnKing67]

20 hours ago, John_Leung said:

Not "no more sin" but to make the choice of not to sin anymore, at least no more adultery, in this case. 

But can we assume it's adultery only? And can we assume it only means to make a choice not to sin instead of actually not sinning?

Edited September 27, 2018 by JohnKing67

[JohnKing67]

1 minute ago, maryjayne said:

I am talking about our spiritual relationship with God through the Blood of Jesus, which puts us back to the relationship Mankind had with God in the Garden before the fall. I hope i understand that bit correctly.

ok, so you would say God's attitude towards sin has changed then since Jesus's death/resurrection.   Sin not approved of in the Old Testament.  Sin ok in the New Testament.  I just want to understand what you're saying?

[JohnKing67]

2 minutes ago, maryjayne said:

 

No way is sin Ok ever. it is inevitable due to our human fallen state, hence the provision for forgiveness to maintain a complete (perfect) relationship with God once we are born again.

So our relationship with God is in a constant state of change then because we will always sin and have to ask for forgiveness?  Do you ever get tired of asking him to forgive you?   I use to be in the habit of constantly asking God to forgive me and I got very tired of it.  I felt like a failure for constantly asking to be forgiven.

[JohnKing67]

Just now, maryjayne said:

In the lords prayer we are asked to pray for forgiveness. Why would I tire of doing the minute things required for me to be close to God and able to kneel at his throne?

I see.  I've gotta run for now.  Thanks for the reply.

[John_Leung]

2 hours ago, JohnKing67 said:

But can we assume it's adultery only? And can we assume it only means to make a choice not to sin instead of actually not sinning?

The Bible doesn't say what else, if any, the woman did, so no need to assume ot speculate.  When you make a choice not to sin, you are not sinning.  He told her to go and sin no more, but we have free will to do whatever we want, just that we're to bear our consequences afterwards and that we'd risk dishonoring Him.  Will you be tempted and go on to sin? Only you'd know and only you can prevent yourself from sinning by making the choice not to.   

[JohnKing67]

On ‎9‎/‎25‎/‎2018 at 4:04 PM, Billiards Ball said:

John, the concept that "don't worry, I'll be sure to never sin" is also unbiblical, both pride and against 1 Cor 10, "Be careful, lest you think you stand, and fall."

You have a different gospel than me. I'm not sure you are a Christian. Please be cautious, pray and read.

I will only say that if someone is going to claim to have the righteousness of Christ, then they should live like Christ lived.  Otherwise don't claim to have the righteousness of Christ.  Just say "I'm doing the best I can".  I mean, wouldn't you agree that Christ never sinned, and he had the righteousness of Christ his whole life.  So if we're going to claim to have the same righteousness when we get saved then we should have the same results that Jesus did from that point on.  Doesn't that seem the slightest bit logical or am I off here?

Edited September 27, 2018 by JohnKing67

[JohnKing67]

40 minutes ago, John_Leung said:

The Bible doesn't say what else, if any, the woman did, so no need to assume ot speculate.  When you make a choice not to sin, you are not sinning.  He told her to go and sin no more, but we have free will to do whatever we want, just that we're to bear our consequences afterwards and that we'd risk dishonoring Him.  Will you be tempted and go on to sin? Only you'd know and only you can prevent yourself from sinning by making the choice not to.   

I agree.  When you say there's no need to assume or speculate, then I have to believe "go and sin no more" means what it says, literally.  Of course the choice was up to her.

Edited September 27, 2018 by JohnKing67