Salvation and Sin

[Billiards Ball]

41 minutes ago, JohnKing67 said:

I will only say that if someone is going to claim to have the righteousness of Christ, then they should live like Christ lived.  Otherwise don't claim to have the righteousness of Christ.  Just say "I'm doing the best I can".  I mean, wouldn't you agree that Christ never sinned, and he had the righteousness of Christ his whole life.  So if we're going to claim to have the same righteousness when we get saved then we should have the same results that Jesus did from that point on.  Doesn't that seem the slightest bit logical or am I off here?

It's quite logical, as you wrote, but according to the Bible, Jesus NEVER EVER sinned. That's not what even born again humans do.

We could use the same standard to say, "The Jews had all of God's Law, so they should have lived perfectly without sin, too."

I have not, however, yet received the exact righteousness or likeness or etc. etc. of Jesus--at the Rapture, I will be transformed. Never again will I sin AFTER the Rapture. This is the only way to make sense of "I was saved, and I will be saved in the future, too."

Also, we don't imitate Christ to become perfectly righteous/forgiven/sinless, we are imputed or imparted this righteousness. Salvation is a GIFT, from Jesus to us, not a manufactured WORK. Be careful!

Also, if I take your doctrine literally, not figuratively, you are telling me that only hypocrites and unbelievers and the lost lack Christ's righteousness, yet you've told me that you personally sin, then repent. So you don't have the EXACT same righteousness as Christ, so you are not only lost, because you lack His righteousness, but you are trying to measure relative righteousness.

It's a demonic lie that God weighs our deeds and if we're better than others but not as bad as some, we make it to Heaven. As you know the gospels and letters teach, we must be PERFECTLY holy to make it to Heaven.

Also, the OT sacrifices did what? Covered sins, washed them, bled them. Jesus died to cover sin.

Further, I find that faith-based people always have more works than works-based people. For example, the average Roman Catholic "tithe" is near 2%, but evangelicals give 10% and more. And how many Roman Catholic lay people live overseas to bring the gospel and good works to strange peoples? Yet many thousands of faith only/eternal security people do so. I was saved from a Jewish background and know what it is to "prove my faith by my deeds," so I have no desire to join the RCC and work my way toward Heaven. It is FINISHED.

Thanks.

[JohnKing67]

7 minutes ago, Billiards Ball said:

It's quite logical, as you wrote, but according to the Bible, Jesus NEVER EVER sinned. That's not what even born again humans do.

True, but that's exactly my point.  Jesus never sinned because he had the righteousness of Christ from the day he was born.  Humans on the other hand have to attain that righteousness.  That's the only difference.  It doesn't make that righteousness any less effective once attained.  It just means we didn't have it our whole lives like Jesus did.

Edited September 27, 2018 by JohnKing67

[JohnKing67]

14 minutes ago, Billiards Ball said:

yet you've told me that you personally sin, then repent.

Umm, sorry, when did I say this because I don't remember it.  Are you saying I said I sin and repent repeatedly, because I'm pretty sure I didn't say this.

[Guest 1sheep]

7 minutes ago, JohnKing67 said:

True, but that's exactly my point.  Jesus never sinned because he had the righteousness of Christ from the day he was born.  Humans on the other hand have to attain that righteousness.  That's the only difference.  It doesn't make that righteousness any less effective once attained.  It just means we didn't have it our whole lives like Jesus did.

Hi JohnKing,

Jesus never sinned because he was fully man and fully God. HE was always intended to be the perfect sinless lamb as the propitiation for sin.

Which by the way: Jesus wasnt referred to as Jesus Christ(jesus the khristos or jesus the messiah or jesus annointed) until AFTER he was CRUCIFIED and RISEN. 

[JohnKing67]

1 minute ago, 1sheep said:

Hi JohnKing,

Jesus never sinned because he was fully man and fully God. HE was always intended to be the perfect sinless lamb as the propitiation for sin.

Which by the way: Jesus wasnt referred to as Jesus Christ(jesus the khristos or jesus the messiah or jesus annointed) until AFTER he was CRUCIFIED and RISEN. 

I understand.  What I said was in response to a few posters who claimed they have the righteousness of Christ yet say they sin daily.  I'm just saying that to me that not my definition nor what I think is the biblical definition of the righteousness of Christ.  What do you think 1sheep?  Am I wrong?

[Guest 1sheep]

7 minutes ago, JohnKing67 said:

I understand.  What I said was in response to a few posters who claimed they have the righteousness of Christ yet say they sin daily.  I'm just saying that to me that not my definition nor what I think is the biblical definition of the righteousness of Christ.  What do you think 1sheep?  Am I wrong?

1john 1:8-9 If we say we have no sin,we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If w

E confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness

They do have the righteousness Of Christ imputed upon them if they are reborn again in Christ. They are justified in Christ and in sanctification mode till death of their flesh which is when they will be glorified in Christ. Righteousness does not indicate perfection in we mere mortals. We are not deity. God is sinless and perfect and HOLY. Refer back to 1john1:8-9

Edited September 27, 2018 by 1sheep

[Guest 1sheep]

On 9/24/2018 at 4:19 PM, JohnKing67 said:

Thanks for the reply.  I don't happen to believe in the forgiveness of future sins.  I was taught that if you sin you have to start your first works over again.  Meaning you have to repent and be forgiven again.  I may not be knowledgeable enough in the Bible to completely defend that position but it's what I believe.  I'm still learning though.  

How about you start using scripture to back what you think. Where did yoy get the term " first works"? What denomination?

[JohnKing67]

15 minutes ago, maryjayne said:

this is where you said that we have to repent and be forgiven again. I am not sure what you mean by first works though.

 

Right,  but I don't remember saying that I was sinning and repenting repeatedly.  That's what Billiards Ball claimed I was saying, I think.  Not sure.

Edited September 27, 2018 by JohnKing67

[JohnKing67]

10 minutes ago, maryjayne said:

what are 'first works'?

I took you saying 'again' to mean 'repeatedly' as in 'again and again' ie more than once. The concept of being a human on earth, yet not sinning is a new one to me. 

No that's not what I meant.  I meant if we sin we have to repent and find forgiveness again.  I just don't agree that sin is unavoidable, and inevitable, and there's no way you can ever be free from sinning.

Edited September 28, 2018 by JohnKing67

[Billiards Ball]

58 minutes ago, JohnKing67 said:

True, but that's exactly my point.  Jesus never sinned because he had the righteousness of Christ from the day he was born.  Humans on the other hand have to attain that righteousness.  That's the only difference.  It doesn't make that righteousness any less effective once attained.  It just means we didn't have it our whole lives like Jesus did.

The righteousness that Jesus had was zero sin. If you are saying we receive the ability to have zero sin from the point we receive salvation, that does not align with everything I know (from the Bible and from experience) with new believers. Paul, for example, wouldn't have to sort believers into "milk and meat" and etc.