Woman of Revelation 12

[simplejeff]

I have no worries nor even think about when (or if) the s0-called "rapture" will occur.

Among people who dwell on that,  and people who don't,   all people,  it won't make any difference for most of them - most all the world refuses to turn to God ,  refuses to repent of serving and worshiping demons. 

So the rapture, if and when and how?  It won't matter at all to the majority of earth dwellers(humans).   They will be seeking to hide from HIM in caves or anyplace to get away from the Glory of His Might,  for they are judged, lost, guilty.

[dhchristian]

Just now, simplejeff said:

I have no worries nor even think about when (or if) the s0-called "rapture" will occur.

Among people who dwell on that,  and people who don't,   all people,  it won't make any difference for most of them - most all the world refuses to turn to God ,  refuses to repent of serving and worshiping demons. 

So the rapture, if and when and how?  It won't matter at all to the majority of earth dwellers(humans).   They will be seeking to hide from HIM in caves or anyplace to get away from the Glory of His Might,  for they are judged, lost, guilty.

Amen. This thought, though true and tastes sweet to those of us who believe, turns to bitterness in the stomach thinking of the lost souls, does it not? 

And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey. (Rev 10:9)

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, dhchristian said:

I Hope my previous comment explains this. This is the Beauty and blessing of the book of Revelation, that we do not know. Look, I believed revelation unfolded exactly as you do, until I saw the flaws in that understanding, and the contradictions therein, Then he showed me the rapture in multiple places and the similarity of the seventh seal trumpet and vial, thus making them all one event described from a different perspective.

What you are saying is, God did not mean for us to know His intent in this book. I could not disagree more. You are very mistaken. It is a REVEALING - a SHOWING. God certainly expects us to know  and understand it!

You still have not shown any real flaws of contradictions. One might think there are, but not after they learn where John had parentheses.

You are also sadly mistaken on your theory of different perspectives.

Most people get lost looking at trees and never really see the forest. After God dictated the messages to the churches, He wanted to introduce John to the BOOK sealed with many seals. He chose to begin while the book was still with the Father, which, of course, caused Him to include some History, for it was 95 AD and the book was in the hand of the Father until Jesus ascended and took it from Him.

This book is one of the main themes of Revelation, for it is through the book being opened that Satan is dethroned from his place as god of this world.  It is impossible to take any seals and place them anywhere else in the book. They are sealing the book - that is their purpose. John sees in vision form as each seal is opened. OF COURSE they are opened SO THAT the book can be opened SO THAT Satan can be dethroned. After the final seal, #7 is opened, the BOOK is opened. John does not write this in black and white, but it should be understood: the open book begins with the trumpet judgments. It is the 7th trumpet that gets Satan dethroned. What really IS this book? It is the title deed or lease document to earth, but I think it includes not only the trumpet judgments but the entire 70th week of Daniel.

Once Earth is back to its rightful owner, then God can proceed with the vials and plagues, but He must have two witnesses: they show up just before the midpoint so they can witness what takes place on earth after each vial is poured out.

It is therefore simply IMPOSSIBLE that these are "all one event."

[iamlamad]

14 minutes ago, simplejeff said:

I have no worries nor even think about when (or if) the s0-called "rapture" will occur.

Among people who dwell on that,  and people who don't,   all people,  it won't make any difference for most of them - most all the world refuses to turn to God ,  refuses to repent of serving and worshiping demons. 

So the rapture, if and when and how?  It won't matter at all to the majority of earth dwellers(humans).   They will be seeking to hide from HIM in caves or anyplace to get away from the Glory of His Might,  for they are judged, lost, guilty.

The rapture is ASSURED to happen! It is the word of God! And it will certainly happen when Paul tells us it will happen: just before God's wrath begins at the 6th seal. It is no mistake that this great crowd, too large to number, is seen soon after that: it is the raptured church seen in heaven.

Who all will go in the rapture? I believe perhaps 50% of earth's population: first those "in Christ" but then all the babies and children under the age of accountability. No, no scripture tells us this, but none denies it either. God tells us that for Him this is harvest time! I believe He is going to "harvest" every human He possibly can. Next, I don't think our Father will have children on earth during the days of GT when He pours out His wrath.

Further, I think God EXPECTS US to believe in the rapture, prepare as if it will be today, be expecting it and be watching.

[iamlamad]

26 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

Jeff, I believe in the concept that "in essentials unity in non essentials liberty". As such, "When the rapture occurs" is a non essential. It may be more prudent to hold one view or the other, But if you disagree with mine, but we are still united on the essentials, we are Brothers or sister in Christ. I see WAY too many pre tribbers condemning those who do not think the rapture is pre trib, and vice versa to eternal damnation Just for this doctrine. What they are in fact doing is exposing the spiritual pride.

Let's compare some of those rapture scriptures in the book of revelation.

Rev 4:1, John ascends to heaven. Is this the rapture? comes after the church ages, and the church no longer mentioned in Revelation.

Rev 7:9ff The great multitude in heaven, are said to have come out of the great tribulation. Is this the rapture, between the sixth and seventh seal?

Rev 10:7,11:12 The mystery fulfilled, the two witnesses are resurrected and told to come up Hither.  This occurs between the sixth and seventh trump. Is this the rapture?

Rev 12:5 Speaks of the child being caught up to heaven. Is this the rapture?

Rev 14:14 You have the two angels reaping, The first one gathers to heaven the second one gathers for the winepress of the wrath of God. This occurs after the Mark of the beast. Is this the Rapture?

Rev 16:15 Jesus says he comes as a thief, and "blessed is he that watcheth". this occurs between the sixth and seventh vial. Is this the rapture?

Rev 19:7ff speaks of the Wedding of the Lamb to the Bride. This occurs after the Judgement of the Whore. And is followed by Jesus on the White Horse leading the saints to the final battle. Is this the rapture?

SEVEN TIMES, Rapture Language used throughout Revelation, Almost like there are seven different visions, and they all have the same basic outline. Plagues and tribulation, followed by separation and  rescue and redemption of the righteous, followed by the wrath of God. So One Believer is seeing one thing, and another something else and this is where they get their rapture timing from, so they are right to a certain extent, but do not have the entire picture understood. 

I agree, all who are born again are brothers and sisters in Christ. However, it is possible that brother and sister are separated at the rapture because one was expecting and watching and one was not. I hope this is not the case, but there are so many scriptures about watching. And then there is Hebrews 9: the last verse. He will appear to those who are EXPECTING Him. Is there a flip side to this verse? Perhaps then He WON'T appear to those who are not expecting Him.

Rev. 4:1 NOT the rapture: it is John caught up around 95 AD.

Rev. 7:9  This great crowd, too large to number, is OF COURSE the raptured church in heaven. The church will be BY FAR the largest group mentioned in Revelation. But 7:9 is not the rapture, it is the results of the rapture. They are already in heaven. John did not see the rapture so did not write it.  many people are thrown off by the two words together, "great tribulation." They fail to understand, any time saints are being martyred, it is great tribulation in the mind of God. Remember, Jesus had to add more words to describe the days of GT He spoke of: that there was never and would be never any other days such as those. This statement of Jesus proves there are OTHER days of GT.  All John is telling us is that at the time of the rapture, there is going to be martyrs around the world. It is in half the world today and it is growing as we approach the end.

Some people imagine this great crowd comes from the 144,000 preaching to the world. Sorry, but there is not one word written about that.

Did you notice that chapter 7 is between the 6th and 7th seal? Why did John break from his narrative of the seals and go into some kind of intermission for chapter 7?

Have you ever watched a play where between acts the curtain is closed? What is happening behind the curtain? They are rearranging the setting to fit the next act!  This is exactly what John is doing. Imagine the curtain closing after the 6th seal. God must rearrange the set to fit the next act: the 7th seal will start the 70th week of Daniel! The trumpets will most certainly come with God's wrath! Therefore, the setting must be changed: TWO EVENTS must take place before God's wrath begins: 1: the 144,000 MUST be sealed for their protection. 2: the church must be safely seen in heaven so God can pour out His wrath.

Rev. 10:7  Many people ponder about this mystery; but all we need do is SEE WHAT HAPPENS at the 7th trumpet. What do we read? Satan is dethroned! Thank God forever; after 6000 years of life on earth with Satan as the spiritual ruler or prince of this world, FINALLY God gets His planet back!  I found several times that ancient Jewish sages, maybe from the days of Moses, wrote that since God created in 6 days, and rested in the 7th, that MAN would rule the world for 6000 years and then GOD would rule for the 7th thousand years. I think the 6000 years will END, meaning, Adam's lease on earth will END at the 6000 years. The Jews think we are around year 5700 and some odd years, but there are men who have spent their lives studying Bible chronology, and at least one thinks we are VERY CLOSE to 6000 now.

The mystery that in chapter ten is that when the 7th trumpet is sounded, The kingdoms of the world are taken from Satan and given to Our Lord Jesus Christ. The Michael goes immediately to kick satan down from the heavenly realms. I guess we could say, Satan loses His wings.  He will then be confined to earth.

Rev. 11:12  Most people do not understand the timing of the two witnesses. That is because they MISS that 11:4 throught 11:13 is written as a parenthesis and NOT IN John's chronology.

Chronology:

11:1-2 perhaps just days before the midpoint

11:3  Exactly 3.5 days before the exact midpoint

11:14-15 Exact midpoint

12:6 Those in Judea flee seconds after the midpoint abomination.

Again John breaks between the 6th and 7th, but it is more difficult to see. John's midpoint "intermission" begins in chapter 10, but John opens the curtain so to speak, in 11:14 & 15 to sound the 7th trumpet, but then closes the curtain and is back into his midpoint intermission. HOWEVER, John keeps to his chronology inside the intermission.

Rev 12:5  NO! These 5 verses were to show John how the Dragon used King Herod to try and kill Jesus as a child! This is where Jesus spoke to me and said these 5 verses were a "history lesson" for John.

Rev. 14:14  This is a very highly symbolic PROPHECY of soon to come future events. it does not happen here. During the days of GT coming, many saints will die. This is the picture of the harvest of the saints. But at the battle of Armageddon, many millions will die. This will be the wine press.  It is NOT the rapture!

Rev. 16:15  NO, this is not the rapture! Jesus will VERY SOON come to Armageddon, but again, no one will know the Day nor the Hour.  This is a warning for those who have survive the first 5 plagues with the associated vials.

Rev. 19:7  The marriage and supper will take place IN HEAVEN before Jesus descends to Armageddon. Note carefully the church is already there. the Old Testament saints are already there.  It is NOT the rapture.

SEVEN TIMES, Rapture Language used throughout Revelation  This is imagination and lack of understanding.

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, simplejeff said:

Well observed, good appraisal, yes.

Spin being most and quite regular (considered "normal") on all internet and media news and forums, of course.

 

Imagining "spin" in this case is just a lack of understanding.

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, dhchristian said:

d 2 hours ago

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

God has spoken that Satan will get 42 months of authority for the Beast. Although the world will then belong to Jesus, He is GOING to give the Antichrist Beast his 42 months.

More Spin. Yes ultimately it is God that allows evil to exist, But the beast of revelation gets his authority from the dragon, and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. (Rev 13:2)

remember, right now, Satan is the god of this world. (2 cor. 4:4) Because of man's sin he holds this authority.

You don't believe God has given 42 months of authority to the Beast? Yes, OF COURSE Satan gives it to Him but Satan can only do what God ALLOWS Him to do.

I guess what you are saying is, you imagine John got timing mixed up and this 42 months MUST come before Jesus gets His planet back. Is this what you are thinking?

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, dhchristian said:

...

I Agree whole heartedly that the Greek verbs show no timing, hence the point of this debate. I agree the wrath of God is spoken of at the sixth to seventh seal. But then the book of the trumpets begins, and jumps back a bit. Now notice how the sun is darkened during the fifth trumpet, similar to how it is darkened during the sixth seal. Same event? Now notice the sixth trumpet while have you at rev. 9 Four angels (fallen angels) bound at the River Euphrates, and compare this to the Sixth vial (rev. 16:12) where river Euphrates is dried up.... If something is bound up below river, would the river not need to be dried up to release them? You see, when you start reading Revelation this way All of a sudden you start to have triangulation... (a maritime term, where if you know where two fixed points are you can find where you are.) Now John as a Fishermen would have understood triangulation. And as you begin to see this, then you will start to see the real sequence of events. 

There are some people (Good Christians) who see the rapture as happening in Rev. 4. There are others, (good Christians such as yourself) who see it happening at the sixth seal. There are good Christians who see the Rapture at the last trump, and concurrent with the rapture of the two witnesses Such as myself. There are some, Good Christians who see the rapture in revelation 14 with the Gatherings etc. This way of looking at revelation agrees with all of these views. They are all right to an extent, where they are wrong is that they fight amongst each other because they read revelation wrongly.

then the book of the trumpets begins, and jumps back a bit  Sorry, but this is just your theory and cannot possibly be proven by scripture.

Now notice how the sun is darkened during the fifth trumpet, similar to how it is darkened during the sixth seal. Same event?  OF COURSE NOT!  AT the 6th seal John is describing both the sun and moon during an eclipse! Both are VISIBLE. Did you just not notice that at the 5th trumpet is the the dark cloud of locusts that BLOCK the sun?  These are different events. John is marching  us THROUGH TIME as each trumpet is sounded. The first 6 trumpets take up the entire first 1260 days of the week. The 7th marks the midpoint.

Now notice the sixth trumpet while have you at rev. 9 Four angels (fallen angels) bound at the River Euphrates, and compare this to the Sixth vial (rev. 16:12) where river Euphrates is dried up  Sorry, but imagination again! It does not say the angels are UNDER the water! Anyway, angels could live under the water. I think the real meaning here is that since the beginning of time, these angels KNOW they have an appointment at a certain place at the Euphrates River and the exact moment in time they must be there. In other words, I doubt if these angels have been waiting there for the last 6000 years! This is simply a DIFFERENT EVENT than the vial. ALL trumpets will be finished and done will be the midpoint of the week. The vials come an unknown time into the last half of the week. What you suggest is not possible the way John wrote the book. You disregard timing.   Are these God's angels, or are they fallen angels? Is this 200 million army a real physical army, or it is an army of Angels? I personally think this is the parable of the tares taking place. I could be wrong.

when you start reading Revelation this way   Sorry, I don't read it this way; I try to understand John's timing and Chronology.

as you begin to see this, then you will start to see the real sequence of events   What you are saying is, you think your sequence is real and mine is not. OF COURSE I disagree.  I see you ignoring TIME.

There are some people (Good Christians) who see the rapture as happening in Rev. 4  True, but these Christians have no idea what good exegesis is. Those that do KNOW (without a shadow of doubt) that this is JOHN being called up to heaven so WE could have this book added to our Bible. Only with wild imagination and ignoring the actual words of scripture could anyone think this is the rapture. I guess, what most imagine is that John is HINTING this is the rapture. I disagree.

There are good Christians who see the Rapture at the last trump  Of course the rapture will be at the last trump: the very last trumpet of the church age and probably the last final trumpet blast at a given Feast of Trumpets. It cannot be at the 7th trumpet in Revelation. Again it would take great imagination to get from Satan losing his throne to a rapture.

concurrent with the rapture of the two witnesses Such as myself.   You fail to recognize 11:4 through 11:13 as a parenthesis. You fail to understand all 5 mentions of the 3 1/2 year period of time is for the LAST half of the week. You fail to understand that the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint. HOWEVER, you are free to believe as you do. I can only say you need more study.

[dhchristian]

26 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

but these Christians have no idea what good exegesis is.

Iamlamad,

Notice here you take away the evidence that these people use for seeing the rapture in John 4:1. THE CHURCH is no longer mentioned in revelation after this point. This is an astute observation using good exegesis. Just like the point I made regarding Israel only being mentioned twice in revelation, and both times with regard to the 144K. These are facts. You cannot spin the facts, try as you might. 

You also like to add your parenthesis a bit too much. If a passage does not fit your timeline, it must be a parenthesis. This is just a defensive way to say to yourself that I am not wrong, instead of challenging your preconceived notions. In Other words, trying to kind here, You have closed your mind, and are unteachable. This is a problematic attitude to have Biblically, and with regard to Revelation.

39 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

I see you ignoring TIME.

No, You yourself made the point that the verbs used in Greek do not dictate time. I Agree with this. There is a sequence to events, but there is also jump back (What you call parenthesis) and there is overlap. The way I Order revelation is exactly how Jesus did in Matthew 24, although the Olivet discourse did not get into the specifics by name. In Matthew 24 you have the seals, The Persecution, The Gospel of the kingdom preached and then the end begins (The final week) This commences with the A of D, and "immediately after the tribulation of those times" the rapture occurs, "the sun shall be darkened and the moon not give its light", which is the sixth seal as you rightly see. But that sixth seal is after the tribulation, and the "great tribulation, Such as was not since the beginning of the World". 

Here is the biggest mistake that is made, and that you make. I Understand why you make this mistake, because Daniel 9:27 has been mistakenly translated. The A of D is an act that is done at the beginning of the final week and lasts for 3.5 years. The Word translated as "Midst of the week" can also be translated as "for half of the week", and some versions do translate it the second way. Translating it the second way puts this perfectly in line with Matthew 24, Luke 21, 2 Thess. 2 Which have this revelation of the Antichrist/ Abomination as the first event when the end begins. This view also has a complimentary example with the Abomination committed by Antiochus Epiphanes during the intertestamental time period. He declared himself God and desecrated the temple, and there was a time of exactly 2300 days that the abominations continued, Exactly as Daniel prophesied, to the day. It is from these events we get the feast of Dedication from (Hanukkah). So, as you can see, I am not ignoring Time, I am using scripture to interpret scripture to arrive at my timing. All of a sudden, when you start doing this, things and events will begin to fit the big picture. This to me is Good Exegesis, Not the stuff they indoctrinate you with in theology 101. This does not come from a book written by man Or some movie playing in your church, But the Word of God, The LIVING WORD OF GOD, and much prayer, and being teachable.

You have a problem with being teachable , and the only solution is to Pray the prayer found in Psalm 25:4-5. You will discover something wonderful if you open your heart to Jesus and being taught by Him, The Bread of Life, and the water which quenches all thirst. Suddenly He will begin to open up the Word of God to you in ways you have never seen before, and the Word of God will begin to read you and sanctify you.

 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. (1 Cor 3:18) 

[dhchristian]

On 6/23/2019 at 11:22 PM, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

for the CHILD is not JESUS but another person, and as we can see you know not who this person is. 

Who is the Man child, if he is not Jesus? Using scripture to interpret scripture, We see the one who will be ruling over the nations with a Rod of Iron.

And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

And he (The overcomers of this church) shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (Rev 2:26-27)

Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. (1 John 3:1-2)

For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. (Romans 8:19)

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: (John 1:12)

And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. (Rev 12:5)

And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. (Rev 12:11)

And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. (Rev 12;17)

Who is it that is awarded thrones?

And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Matthew 19:28)

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (Rev 20:4)

To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. (Rev. 3:21)

And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.(Rev. 4:4)

Though not the Throne of God, The Sons of God, the overcomers, including the Apostle, the 24 Elders, Those Beheaded as Martyrs All receive thrones or seats. It is the overcomers of the seven churches that get these rewards, Apostles included, These are saints to use a single word to describe them all. And they will Judge. Not all believers are saints. (Eph 1:1)

Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? (1 Cor 6:2-3)

So WHO will rule with a rod of Iron? Not Jesus, Because he would have said "I" in rev. 2;27 instead he said "He".