The Trinity

[EricH]

I guess I would want to understand forst what you meant by "I don't believe in the Trinity". Could you please explain further

[JesusisGod2]

I'm going to toss this question out for discussion and possible condemnation.  If I do not believe in the Trinity, but have accepted Jesus Christ in my life and that he died on the cross and rose from the dead to cleanse us from sin, believe that I am born again of God's holy spirit, and do everything that I can to live the way God wants me to live, but I do not believe in the Trinity, Am I going to heaven or not?

I have reasons to ask this and I will explain them as things progress (or digress, depending on how it goes).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hello Hmh,

I attend an Apostolic Pentecostal church where they believe in "Jesus Only".

I myself believe in the "Trinity" of the Godhead. We leave our disagreement with God and depend on Him to change our way of thinking to one or the other, so far that has not happened. there are other views we disagree over as well, but not to the point of breaking fellowship.

On the other hand there is so much we do agree on such as salvation through Christ, The power of prayer, the ressurection, love for those who come in the name of The Lord, etc...

This church is filled with the Spirit and Christ is worshipped here, truth is spoken here, God is worshipped and praised and offered sacrifices of thanksgiving here. The Holy Spirit convicts, edifies, loves, and directs our attention on Jesus. God is either there or there is a pretty good imposter

I have been to some "Trinity" churches who say they believe in the Holy Spirit and yet deny His power. They sit alll quiet afraid to sneeze and yet will go horse rooting for their favorite football team.

And have been to some on fire Pentecostal, "Trinity" believeing churches as well. I love celebrating the victory Christ has won on the cross Thank you Jesus!!!!

This to me is something that is not an important issue to seperate over. Jesus Himself said that those who believe in the Father, will be led to the Son. God has bestowed all honor to the Son.

I do not believe that one is unsaved if they do not believe in the "Trinity" as long as one believes in Jesus.

Paul states this in Romans 10:

8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,

9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Now I will again state that I myself believe in the "trinity" and see evidence in scripture that indicate as such.

Are you an Apostolic Pentecostal by the way?

In Jesus

Kevin

[sheya joie]

I too would like to know what exactly you mean by not believing in the trinity. It's rather hard to know how to answer when the question is worded somewhat vaguely.

I will mention one thing. I noticed lately this verse:

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Jesus HIMself was speaking here. HE could have simply said 'in the name of Jesus Christ' as Peter did about ten days later at Pentecost (Acts 2:38). Or HE could have said in the name of the 'Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.' (Isaiah 9:6) Indeed, HE could have chosen many titles for us to use, for Scripture uses many titles to speak of the LORD and HIS attributes.

But HE chose to mention these three titles - these three, neither more nor less. Why? To me, it looks like HE was referring to the 'trinity.'

What do you think?

[JesusisGod2]

I too would like to know what exactly you mean by not believing in the trinity.  It's rather hard to know how to answer when the question is worded somewhat vaguely.

I will mention one thing.  I noticed lately this verse:

Mat 28:19  Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Jesus HIMself was speaking here.  HE could have simply said 'in the name of Jesus Christ' as Peter did about ten days later at Pentecost (Acts 2:38).  Or HE could have said in the name of the 'Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.' (Isaiah 9:6)  Indeed, HE could have chosen many titles for us to use, for Scripture uses many titles to speak of the LORD and HIS attributes. 

But HE chose to mention these three titles - these three, neither more nor less.  Why?  To me, it looks like HE was referring to the 'trinity.'

What do you think?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Sheya,,,

Actually you are correct the Father, Son, Holy Spirit are titles and yet Jesus said be baptized in the Name of. (I dont want to get onto the topic of baptism here, but do want to point out the power in the Name of Jesus.)

The deciples seemed to understand this, if you look through the book of acts you see that they wre all baptized in the Name of Jesus , not one plkace does it show that they were baptized in the titles of Father, Son, And Holy Spirit.

Jesus appears to be the Name of the Father, Son, & Holy Spirt:

John 17:11

"I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are. NASB

Notice Jesus ask the Father to keep us in His (The Fathers) Name, The Name which The Father has given the Son, that Name being Jesus.

Acts 2:38

Peter said to them, " Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 3:16

"And on the basis of faith in His name, it is the name of Jesus which has strengthened this man whom you see and know; and the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect health in the presence of you all.

Acts 8:15 who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.

16 For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

17 Then they began laying their hands on them, and they were receiving the Holy Spirit.

Acts 10:48

And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.

Acts 19:5

When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

I appreciate what you said above, but He really wasnt pointing to the title as much as the emphasis is on the Name,

Be baptized in the Name of the Father Son, And Holy Spirit.

Jesus HIMself was speaking here. HE could have simply said 'in the name of Jesus Christ' as

In actuality, this isexactly what He was saying and the deciples seemd to understand it in this light as well.

I dont want to get too far off topic here, I just wanted to point out that the whole of the Godhead is realized and seen in Jesus Christ.

John 1:17

For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.

Romans 8:1

Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

The Godhead is not a simple thing to understand as some would lead one to believe, However, I tend to agree with you on the "trinity"

There is God The Father, God The Son, god The Holy Spirit and yet They are One.

[jc49]

I'm going to toss this question out for discussion and possible condemnation.  If I do not believe in the Trinity, but have accepted Jesus Christ in my life and that he died on the cross and rose from the dead to cleanse us from sin, believe that I am born again of God's holy spirit, and do everything that I can to live the way God wants me to live, but I do not believe in the Trinity, Am I going to heaven or not?

I have reasons to ask this and I will explain them as things progress (or digress, depending on how it goes).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I say wahat I say in love and respect of you..ok?

it is true that the term trinity doesn't appear in the Bible...but an accurate study from genesis to revelation will show that God presents Himself in three distinct "persons",namely The Father,The Son,The Holy Ghost..in fact in Gen 1:3

:In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

We see God,The Father creating,The Spirit moving and Jesus The Word speaking light into existence....

Now with the help of the Holy Spirit we can examine ALL the 66 books and we will see always the same pattern of 3,sometimes very evident,sometimes hidden in the actions of the Godhead.

For example in the famous:

Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." Deuteronomy 6:4-5

We note : The Lord( the Father) our God (the Son) is one Lord ( The Spirit)..it is amazing that in this verse He didn't say Hear o Israel God is one,but The Lord our God is one Lord... do you see how God UNDERLINES,stresses HIS COMPOUND UNITY? in other words a unity composed by three persons?

and the fact that He hints to the human trinity or triune essence ( Spirit,Soul,Body) asking us to love Him with the heart ( a biblical term for spirit) the soul ( that is the soul ) and the might ( the body).

or in Numbers 6, the Aaronic blessing:

Speak unto Aaron and unto his sons, saying, On this wise ye shall bless the children of Israel, saying unto them,

24 The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

25 The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

26 The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

27 And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel, and I will bless them.

Do you see THE LORD,THE LORD,THE LORD....yes,HE IS ONE IN THREE and THREE IN ONE! Hallelujah!!!

Now,to be saved one MUST BELIEVE that JESUS is GOD

Romans 10:

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved

Do you see?

believe confessing JESUS as LORD and that GOD( THE FATHER) raised Him from the dead and Paul says that that THE HOLY SPIRIT ROSE CHRIST from the dead!

So,if you or anyone else doesn't believe in THE FATHER and the HOLY SPIRIT,well,sorry brother it is a pretty sad story....

I am not here to preach a waterd down gospel neither a consolation prize gospel,believing in Jesus excluding the Father and the Holy Spirit is believing in an

another Jesus, and another gospel..in fact the Jesus only cult is heretical to the core...

that Jesus without The Father and The Holy Spirit is a figment of the imagination,ia a fictious Jesus,no more no less that the Jesus of the Jws or LDS or..well I stop here.

The Lord Jesus, in the days of HIS FLESH ( I say this because HE IS ETERNAL,meaning that BEFORE THE INCARNATION HE WAS or better IS in eternity in the GOD HEAD) prayed to THE FATHER,moved in the POWER of THE HOLY SPIRIT and declared to be GOD HIMSELF!!!

JESUS,praise HIS HOLY NAME,was not schizophrenic nor paranoid,praying to a non existing Father neither was a lunatic ( moon struck demon possessed) talking to His fellow jews about THE FATHER and THE SPIRIT and they GOT MAD at HIM ,because they couldn't accept that GOD ) from them wrongly understood to be ONE PERSON) had a SON.....so how do we explain Psalm 2?

King James Version

Psalms 1.

The Book of Psalms

Return to Index

Chapter 2

1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?

Acts 4:25

2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,

Acts 4:26

3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the LORD shall have them in derision.

5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Acts 13:33 Heb 1:5, 5:5

8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Rev 2:27

10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.

11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.

12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

Do you see THE FATHER TALKING OF HIS SON and THE HOLY SPIRIT SEALING THE DECLARATION?

No,brother,I firmly dissent with you about JESUS ONLY HERESY,and in the love of THE LORD I encourage you to humbly seek HIS FACE about the matter and do a serious prayerful study and as He did with me ( I didn't go Bible school etc..) HE will teach you HIS WORD to rightly divide it and understand that belief in HIS TRIUNE NATURE IS AN INTEGRAL PART of KNOWING GOD.....and GETTING SAVED according HIS WORD and not ancient ( and unfortunatekly persistent) heresies...

SHALOM

[JesusisGod2]

hmh,

You out there?

[other one]

This is something I posted some time ago that addresses my belief in the trinity

QUOTE

Exod 24 10Then Moses went up with Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, and they saw the God of Israel; and under His feet (15) there appeared to be a pavement of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself. Yet He did not stretch out His hand against the nobles of the sons of Israel; and they saw God, and they ate and drank.

QUOTE

John 6:45 "It is written in the prophets, ' AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

46 Not that any man has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father.

Moses and friends saw the God of Israel and were not harmed.

Jesus says that no man has seen the father except He that came from Him.

So it seems to me that the Father that Jesus speaks of, is not what that the Nation of Israel interfaced with in the old testament.

Looking further:

QUOTE

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life and the life was the light of men.

QUOTE

John 1:9 There was the true light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. He was in the world and the world was made through Him and the world did not know Him.

John 8:57-59

57 The Jews therefore said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" 58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."

NASB

It seems to me to be saying that Jesus was what the Nation of Israel interfaced with in the old testament days. Jesus in this form was with the Father from the beginning.

It seems to me that the people of the old testament days were not aware of the Father except for what they saw through the Jesus in the form he existed in before he became flesh.

Further:

QUOTE

Philippians 2:5+ Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with god a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

It appears to me that Jesus as the word was that which the Father worked through to manifest Himself to the people of the old testament times. Jesus did not regard himself to want to be the equal to the Father so He took the form of a human to further the works of the Father on earth.

Jesus was deity by being in the form of God, but it was the Father that did the work through Him when he was the Word. It appears that the only thing that has changed is Jesus is now flesh working the same way only as a man. The Father exercises His will through Jesus, now in the fleshly body.

QUOTE

John 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in me does His works. Believe Me that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me;

QUOTE

John 17:20 Jesus prayed " I do not ask in behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their work: that they may all be one; even as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be in Us; that the world may believe that Thou didst send Me"

It seems to me that Jesus just extended the conduit from Him to us for the Father to do His work through Jesus to us so we could know the Father as the Father knows us. Thus we now can do the work of the Father. I believe this is the path and workings of the Holy Spirit. I fear discussing the workings of The Spirit for none of this in more than my personal beliefs, and to get something wrong concerning the Spirit could be a grave mistake.

I will just say that I believe that the Holy Spirit is the spirit from The Father.

QUOTE

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. For since by a man came death, by a man also come the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive.. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, then comes the end, when He delivers up the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put al His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection, it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection, to Him. And when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, That God may be all in all.

Jesus, before His ascension told the Apostles that all power and authority had been given to Him. After he has subdued everything Jesus will also be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him........ The Father.

I don't see the Son always being equal with the Father, either when He was the word nor in the flesh. He will also be subject to the Father after He does the job of bringing the kingdom into it's full power over all and giving it to the Father.

1 Cor 8:5-6

5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

NASB

[hmh]

Sorry I did not get back to this sooner but here I am.

The reason for the question is this, knowing that the Trinity is not mentioned ver batem in the Bible, and understanding through history that the term "Trinity" was coined by the RCC, I had questioned the accuracy of the Trinity. Also, probably through wrong teaching (oh I'm sure of that), that the verses used to prove the Trinity were improperly interpreted (ie- John 10:30- I and my Father are one, John 1:1 for starters) and that even sections of verses are not in the original text (1 John 2:23-... [but] he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also). In my early days I could not really grasp the idea of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, but I never gave it too much thought, I simply looked at it as something that one day would be explained and it would finally sink into my thick head. All of this and feeling that these people who taught me truly loved God and Jesus Christ, but do not believe in the Trinity. I've read what has been posted here, and I do see them in a different light now. I know for myself that God has spoken directly to me twice before (when I first accepted Christ, I heard one night while I was in bed a voice telling me "I will always be with you" and when my daughter was born "She will outlive you." Now the second time so may wonder what was going on, and for me it gave me a sense of peace knowing that I will never have to worry about seeing my daughter die in my lifetime (a fear I had). So knowing this that at least somewhere God knows that I do want to live my life like he wants me too, even though I'm one of the biggest morons around. Do I believe in the Trinity? I'm a lot closer now than I was 17 years ago, and I do admit I have to jump the barrier that was pounded in my head back then. I will come around, and I know that God will at the right moment smack me in the back of the head and then it will all make sense. Just bear with me, because I'm not the brightest bulb in the chandelier.

[Gerioke]

Sorry I did not get back to this sooner but here I am.

The reason for the question is this, knowing that the Trinity is not mentioned ver batem in the Bible, and understanding through history that the term "Trinity" was coined by the RCC, I had questioned the accuracy of the Trinity.  Also, probably through wrong teaching (oh I'm sure of that), that the verses used to prove the Trinity were improperly interpreted (ie- John 10:30- I and my Father are one, John 1:1 for starters) and that even sections of verses are not in the original text (1 John 2:23-... [but] he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also).  In my early days I could not really grasp the idea of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, but I never gave it too much thought, I simply looked at it as something that one day would be explained and it would finally sink into my thick head.  All of this and feeling that these people who taught me truly loved God and Jesus Christ, but do not believe in the Trinity.  I've read what has been posted here, and I do see them in a different light now.  I know for myself that God has spoken directly to me twice before (when I first accepted Christ, I heard one night while I was in bed a voice telling me "I will always be with you" and when my daughter was born "She will outlive you."  Now the second time so may wonder what was going on, and for me it gave me a sense of peace knowing that I will never have to worry about seeing my daughter die in my lifetime (a fear I had).  So knowing this that at least somewhere God knows that I do want to live my life like he wants me too, even though I'm one of the biggest morons around.  Do I believe in the Trinity?  I'm a lot closer now than I was 17 years ago, and I do admit I have to jump the barrier that was pounded in my head back then.  I will come around, and I know that God will at the right moment smack me in the back of the head and then it will all make sense.  Just bear with me, because I'm not the brightest bulb in the chandelier.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Seems to me that you have a good relationship with God. What more do you want?

[hmh]

There are three things I want:

1. To live for God

2. To quit acting like a dumb donkey

3. To learn what God's Word really says and not what others think it says.

Am I asking too much?