The Trinity

[Gerioke]

I don't know but if I could hear what God was trying to say to me, I would be as happy as a dumb donkey. I guess the grass is always greener in your neighbors yard

[Fisher of Men]

Paul said: great is the mystery of godliness, God was manifest in the flesh.

The fact that so much discussion is made concerning the godhead is proof that "God was manifest in the flesh" is in fact a great mystery.

We don't see the word Trinity but we do see the word "godhead".

There are different versions of "trinity". Most all of them use the word "persons" to describe the titles of Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

This 3 persons concept is a choice of analogy to describe the great mystery. I don't go along with that analogy because 3 people cannot be one person.

One being can have 3 personalities but that makes that person schitzo.

So let's find an analogy that we can relate to realistically.

Remember it's a GREAT mystery, this thing of God manifest in the flesh.

The biblical analogy is that Jesus is the Word and the Word was God. John 1

Let's think about this:

Is my word a separate person to myself? Or is it an expression of my one self, my one being?

Let's take another biblical analogy:

My right arm.

Is my right arm a separate person to myself? Or is it a part of my one self that can be used to extend and perform a purpose?

In Isaiah 53 Jesus is prophesied of using the analogy of being God's right arm.

Why can't we accept that as a great mystery without having to resort to the non biblical concept that God is three separate persons?

Col. 2:9 says all the fullness of the godhead dwells in Jesus bodily. That means that the Father and the Holy Ghost dwell in Jesus the Son.

Father, Son and Holy Ghost are titles of the same one being: God.

I suggest that we abandon non biblical simplistic explanations that turn the one God into 3 separate persons and accept and humble ourselves to the fact that Jesus being God manifest in the flesh is a GREAT mystery as Paul declares it to be.

The Word was always with God and the Word was God. (John 1).

What biblical evidence do we have that the Word was in a form of a separate person prior to Jesus being born? Couldn't the Word have been a part of the one God as your word is part of you and is not a separate person?

When Jesus was born, then was fulfilled "God with us".

God is a Spirit.

God is Holy.

Hence God is the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit Came upon Mary and she became with child.

Is Jesus the Son of the Father or of the Holy Spirit?

Can you see that the Father and the Holy Spirit are one in the same?

It's a great mystery.

Jesus is the everlasting Father (Isaiah 9:6) because he is the Word of the Father and like you, your word is part of, and is what makes you the one being that you are.

In Isaiah and other places where God directly addresses himself we NEVER see him using the words "us" or "we". If God were in fact 3 persons we should see numerous uses of those words especially when he addresses himself.

The creation narrative of Gen. 1 is not God directly addressing himself but rather a narrative of how he created all physical things. Gen. 11 also is not where God is directly addressing himself. These 2 places where we see the use of the word "us" need to be looked at in a different light. It is not necessary to desperately use them to shore up an unsubstantiated scripture-denying explanation of the godhead.

Our explanation cannot deny that Jesus is Creator and Everlasting Father.

The Word is Creator and Everlasting Father. The Father is a Spirit and Holy.

Great is the mystery.

Let's accept it. Not fight it.

The Lord your God is one Lord.

1 John 5:7

[JesusisGod2]

Interesting response Fisher of men,

But its just not as simple as you have tried to portray it.

John 17:11

"I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are.

Here Jesus asks of the Father to keep us in His name that we may be one even as they are one

We are made up of many individual persons and yet we are one in Christ, the same applies to the Godhead, 3 individuals, one in thought, action, purpose, etc.

Paul throughout the Epistles addresses both The Father and Jesus as well as the Holy Spirit, and in individual manner.

Romans 1:7

to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. [/COLOR]

Romans 15:6

so that with one accord you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ

1 Corinthians 1:3

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Cor 15

23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,

24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.

2 Corinthians 1:3

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort,

2 Corinthians 11:31

The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, He who is blessed forever, knows that I am not lying.

Galatians 1:1

Paul, an apostle not sent from men nor through the agency of man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised Him from the dead),

Its just not as simple as you portray it to be.

I suggest that we abandon non biblical simplistic explanations that turn the one God into 3 separate persons and accept and humble ourselves to the fact that Jesus being God manifest in the flesh is a GREAT mystery as Paul declares it to be.

What is so "non biblical" see God as three individuals and yet understand them to be one? I understand that the title of "trinity" is found no where in the bible, however, it does show three individuals of the Godhead.

Acts 7:55 But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God;

We see here God the Father, God the Son & God the Holy Spirit pictured here in the stoning of Stephen.

There are different versions of "trinity". Most all of them use the word "persons" to describe the titles of Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

This 3 persons concept is a choice of analogy to describe the great mystery. I don't go along with that analogy because 3 people cannot be one person.

No where in the scriptures does it say that God is one person, it says that the Lord thy God is One, and I don't believe that anyone who believes in the "trinity" claims three individuals to be one person. We believe three individuals to be One God.

The creation narrative of Gen. 1 is not God directly addressing himself but rather a narrative of how he created all physical things.

The very first mention of God "Elohim" allows for the trinity, the form of the word is plural and would explain the let Us and We, mentioned in Genesis.

Your teaching sounds Apostolic.

In Jesus

kevin

[jc49]

This section provides a quick overview of the verses showing our God is "three in one" )

Verses saying Jesus is God:

Heb. 1:8

God the Father called the Son "God."

Isa. 9:6

The "child" is called the "Mighty God."

Mt. 1:23,

Is. 7:14

Jesus is called Immanuel, which means "God with us."

John. 1:1

Jesus (the "Word") is called "God."

1 Tim. 3:16

Paul said Jesus was God "manifested in the flesh."

Col. 2:8.9

Paul said Jesus was the "fullness of the Godhead bodily.

John. 20:28

Thomas said to Jesus, "

[JesusisGod2]

Hi Jc,

Great post, I haven"t had time to look up all the references of scripture you gave, but I thought it was very good.

Have you studied Hebrew? Just curiuos.

In the very beginning during creation God diplays Himself in plural form Elohim.

How is the weather in good ole Austraila? My brother in law is from there and now lives in Puerto Rico.

God bless and G'day

Kevin

[jc49]

Hi Jc,

Great post, I haven"t had time to look up all the references of scripture you gave, but I thought it was very good.

Have you studied Hebrew? Just curiuos.

In the very beginning during creation God diplays Himself in plural form Elohim.

How is the weather in good ole Austraila? My brother in law is from there and now lives in Puerto Rico.

God bless and G'day

Kevin

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Kevin,thanks..

well brother,I must say that the Jesus only sect is really a sad story..I have had only bad experiences with them..sorry..but it is the truth...I remember that when He saved me 33 years ago,the Holy Spirit revelead to my spirit instantenously The Father,drove me to Jesus and filled me with the baptism of the Spirit,so I just praise Him cause this trinitarian "issue" by His grace has never been an issue to me..later,studying the Scriptures the Lord showed me His triune nature and essence and it makes sense to me!

btw,I am italian and also an aiustralian citizen now,but my english is not very good...I am in queensland subtropical weather..here it is 6 months of humidity,I mean hot and sticky,I am near Brisbane,in Noosa,but 2 years ago we were in Far North Queensland and it was really tropical to the max...

At the moment we are entering winter and it is a bit of freaky weather,thunderstorm and stuff,yesterday in Brisbane a sudden hail storm made a lot of damage...btw...I am a bit sick of australia,I have been everywhere...there is a lot of desert and it is an harsh country...but GOD IS HERE TOO and that is what is kool

I like your posts too ,we in line with Him,praise the Lord...see ya!

Maranatha

[JesusisGod2]

Hi JC,

Praise the Lord!!!

I have heard that Autraila has some pretty harsh country.

I attend a "Jesus only" church and we most definitely have some disagreements. And I must admit it is sometimes hard to attend, I also see many good things as well, although I feel God is now calling me to move on.

We believe in a lot of the same things, such as the power of the Holy Spirit, The gifts of the Spirit, etc.. but there are definite issues that I am really troubled in my heart over. And yet there is a lot of good I see as well.

Because we differ on certain doctrine I am sometimes made to feel "second rate" and even to the point where it causes one to doubt their salvation,and this is where I must draw the line, for whatever is not of faith is sin.

They also seem to believe in replacement theology, do you get this opinion when you have spoken with them?

Don't get me wrong, I have been fed there, but I Don't get out of it what I once did. I do not understand why some want to take away the simplicity of the gospel!

I have this felling in my heart or should I say drive to move on start attending a Messianic fellowship, but the closes one is about an hour and then some. But I feel this is where I will be heading. Ever been to one? I cant help but feel God has something there for me.

May God richly bless you in your pursuit of Him. By The way, your english is great, you should hear my Italian

In Jesus

Kevin

[Fisher of Men]

Making Him 3 persons is simplifying something that is not simple.

The Lord your God is one Lord.

Jesus is Lord yet you say there are 2 more persons. Are they one Lord or 2 more Lords?

"Persons" is where the error lies. Offices is closer but then I'll be accused of modalism which is a way that trinitarians can slander those who don't like "persons".

What connotation of persons? 3 separate individual beings? That's simplistic to the point of a form of polytheism.

NT says Jesus is creator. The Spirit of Christ is the Holy Ghost.

In Isaiah Jesus is called the everlasting Father.

Find an explanation for the godhead that fits this and then we can agree.

Individual separate "persons" does not fit.

If we can't fully explain it, let's not pretend we can by some 3 distinct individual separate persons explanation.

Let's just agree with Paul that it is a great mystery and agree with all the relevant scripture.

"Us" in Genesis has other considerations other than the non monotheistic theory of "persons".

Persons as in positions or offices, for a lack of a better word for a mystery we cannot adequately explain, is better fitting to the relevant verses than persons as in distinct separate "persons".

Edited May 20, 2005 by Fisher of Men

[Guest Bro David™]

Making Him 3 persons is simplifying something that is not simple.

The Lord your God is one Lord.

[yomotalking]

Amen, Bro David!

I agree with the Trinity as well.

What were the disciples baptized in, (in Acts) if it wasn't the Holy Spirit???

Yomo