Jump to content
n2thelight

Mark of the beast

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, SelahSong said:

In the case of Lot, God graciously allowed him to escape while those in the city, living in sin, were destroyed with fire and brimstone (removed) and taken away.

Notice that in the days of Noah, people were eating, drinking, having weddings, etc., while Noah was obediently preparing the ark, as God had instructed. Then the flood came and swept away those who were unprepared and were taken away (removed).  Noah and his family were "left behind" to carry on God's plan.  

In closing, God leaves the righteous to carry on His plan and the unrighteous are destroyed (removed and taken away) and will not escape His wrath.  The righteous will remain faithfully working in the field until the Second Coming of our Messiah.

 

--Selah--  

 

 

Amen.

  • “Blessed are the gentle, for they shall inherit the earth."  Matthew 5:5
  • Loved it! 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, Littlelambseativy said:

You seem to forget...I will not be here, I will be in heaven. I will be part of the Bride being wed to my Lord and enjoying the Wedding feast. You may stay here and go through the tribulation an experience the Wrath of God. You will not see or find me here.

I understand. Nevertheless, remember what i said.

Blessings.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just remember what God asked Job....Does God need you to fulfill His plan? Is He not capable without humans? As He asked Job, “Where were you when I laid he foundations of the earth....?”

Join us at that Wedding celebration in Heaven...it won’t be the same without you.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Last Daze said:

If you're serious about understanding the intent of the above passage, do a word study on those two verbs.

An excellent idea :).

This underlying Greek word here for "worships" or "worship" (προσκυνέω - probably best transliterated proskyneo or something along those lines) is actually used in multiple tenses throughout the scriptures.

4 hours ago, Last Daze said:

The tense of those verbs indicates an activity that is taking place in the present.

What tense specifically? There is no specific tense attached to proskyneo to my knowledge. As noted above, it is used, unmodified, in more than once tense and for the purposes of this short word study...

Past - Matthew 2:11, 8:2, 9:18, 14:33, 18:26, etc...

In fact, it is used in the past tense as often or more often than it is used in the present tense.

The problem really isn't with the word or the translation of it. The texts says what it says. I'm a firm believer that one can get a general understanding of the the message a passage is trying to get across by simply reading the passage. This passage says folks that worship the beast and receive his mark will not be going to heaven. This is not a theological statement, it is a prophetic statement. There is no theological argument here, only a one of prophecy. As far as I'm concerned, whether or not one can be saved after taking the mark is a meaningless hypothetical, because we know for an absolute fact that none will. Here's another prophecy:

2Th 2:9  The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 
2Th 2:10  and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 
2Th 2:11  And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie
2Th 2:12  that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness

These two things are quite clearly connected.

What's the lie? The claim of the man of sin to be God (2:4).

Who gets sent strong delusion? Those who did not receive the love of the truth.

What happens to them? They are condemned for it.

So here's the real question. Will those who have been sent a "strong delusion" directly from God Himself (as a result of their rejection of His truth) repent and turn towards Him? That would be quite a strong willed person!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Littlelambseativy said:

Just remember what God asked Job....Does God need you to fulfill His plan? Is He not capable without humans? As He asked Job, “Where were you when I laid he foundations of the earth....?”

Join us at that Wedding celebration in Heaven...it won’t be the same without you.

 

You are absolutely right, Littlelamb. God does not need humans.  ....But,He created us for His pleasure and desires fellowship with us, and He calls us to be a royal priesthood and lovingly tells us, "Draw nigh to Me and I will draw nigh to you."....and He calls us to be His ambassadors:

2 Corinthians 5:20 New King James Version (NKJV)

20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God. 

--Selah--

 

  • This is Worthy 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/7/2018 at 8:58 AM, n2thelight said:

Does taking the mark condemn one forever?

Unless those deceived by Satan repent, the answer is yes.  They will be condemned forever.  

Revelation 13:

15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.


It's important to know that the mark of the beast is DECEPTION, being DECEIVED... and many will be deceived, thinking that Satan is the Christ.  Satan will be pretending to be Jesus and acting as a Savior (not killing people or chopping people's heads off).  The mark is in (not on) their hands or in (not on) their foreheads (minds). They will be worshipping Satan and doing his work.  

Satan comes in peacefully and prosperously at the 6th seal, 6th trump and 6th vial, and in order to have money and so forth, one will have to worship Satan and his one-world system. One will have to choose.  Will you love God or will you love Satan. Many who were deceived will repent and will be redeemed at this time ( the 144,000). 

Revelation 14:9-13 King James Version (KJV)

And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

--Selah--

  • Thumbs Up 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, SelahSong said:

In the case of Lot, God graciously allowed him to escape while those in the city, living in sin, were destroyed with fire and brimstone (removed) and taken away.

Notice that in the days of Noah, people were eating, drinking, having weddings, etc., while Noah was obediently preparing the ark, as God had instructed. Then the flood came and swept away those who were unprepared and were taken away (removed).  Noah and his family were "left behind" to carry on God's plan.  

In closing, God leaves the righteous to carry on His plan and the unrighteous are destroyed (removed and taken away) and will not escape His wrath.  The righteous will remain faithfully working in the field until the Second Coming of our Messiah.

 

--Selah--  

 

 

How many are in your family? Only 8 on the whole planet were spared in the Noah flood. Your analogy doesn't hold water this time. This time only 144,002 are left behind. And P.S. if you're not a male virgin Jew, it ain't you.

Edited by Abdicate

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/10/2019 at 12:01 PM, Steve_S said:

An excellent idea :).

This underlying Greek word here for "worships" or "worship" (προσκυνέω - probably best transliterated proskyneo or something along those lines) is actually used in multiple tenses throughout the scriptures.

What tense specifically? There is no specific tense attached to proskyneo to my knowledge. As noted above, it is used, unmodified, in more than once tense and for the purposes of this short word study...

You're correct. The idea is paying homage. That's ongoing, not a one off. It's idolatry. I know that can be forgiven as there is only one sin that's unforgivable, and it's not idolatry.

Quote

 

The problem really isn't with the word or the translation of it. The texts says what it says. I'm a firm believer that one can get a general understanding of the the message a passage is trying to get across by simply reading the passage. This passage says folks that worship the beast and receive his mark will not be going to heaven. This is not a theological statement, it is a prophetic statement. There is no theological argument here, only a one of prophecy. As far as I'm concerned, whether or not one can be saved after taking the mark is a meaningless hypothetical, because we know for an absolute fact that none will. Here's another prophecy:

While this is mostly correct, how could we know for an absolute fact the destiny of everyone? Let me point out some biblical fact that should modify the current conclusion:

6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

At the hour of judgement a messenger is calling for repentance. This could be explained away if this message coincided with instituting mark of the beast. It appears as though it comes after the 144,000 are already with the Lamb before the throne, making this message come after GT as the 144,000 are no longer on earth, and though it's not specified, the gathering of the elect has occurred as well.

Verse 8 says Babylon is fallen. Now whether that means the fall of Babylon is assured, or it happened, or it's in the abstract is up for debate I suppose. I'm thinking it's the physical fall, so again late GT.

Verse 9-11 we know well enough and I'll just post a critical concept concerning 'receive';

2983 lambánō (from the primitive root, lab-, meaning "actively  lay hold of to take or receive," see NAS dictionary) – properly, to lay hold by aggressively (actively) accepting what is available (offered). 2983 /lambánō ("accept with initiative") emphasizes the volition (assertiveness) of the receiver.

This is an activity based on the emotional condition of the taker. This isn't 'receiving' at all, it's an active, willing act of taking with aggressive undertones. This could never be renounced by the taker at any time? On a daily basis, one would assume, the mark would be utilized, it's a lifeline to food and water that's why the verb here denotes activity, which would be ongoing. 

So in both cases of 'worship' and 'receive' it's up to the individual to pay homage and take, probably daily, for sure weekly. Not a single person could ever see the error of their way and repent and be forgiven of these personal actions? And then there's this;

"Blessed [are] the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them."

Why would this be mentioned here? And 'blessed...from henceforth'? So others died in the Lord before this. Why this special blessing? Followers of the Way would already know this. I think coupled with verse 6 we are seeing a chance to repent before final destiny after the gathering of the elect.

Rev 16

9 "...and they repented not to give him glory."

10 "...and repented not of their deeds."

This is said after two plagues are poured out. If repentance was off the table why mention it here during the pouring out of the wrath of God? 

“Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” - Romans 10

"The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord. And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."    - Acts 2

After the day of the Lord begins? Not that it matters when scripture says 'everyone who calls on the Lord will be saved' with no restriction on time or circumstance. This isn't the same as Matt 7. Here it's an appeal, in Matt 7 Jesus is saying, "Not everyone who invokes my name..." 

 

Quote

2Th 2:9  The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 
2Th 2:10  and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 
2Th 2:11  And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie
2Th 2:12  that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness

These two things are quite clearly connected.

Hmm...I don't see a connection. The deception and delusion is 'among those who perish' and we do not know who that might be. And the condemnation here is for those who did not receive the LOVE of the truth, and those who did not BELIEVE the truth. I'm not of the opinion that idolatry and paying homage to the wrong authority necessarily equates to never receiving the love of the truth or a resolve to believe not. An example would be;

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. -Matt 7

These are professing believers thinking they were doing the work of the Lord. I'm betting these are the focus of 1 Thess 2:9-12. Them that believe not, the unsaved who have never professed the Lord, may or may not find themselves in such a condition. A Muslim who has been taught from birth the Bible is unreliable may not receive the love of the truth until some dire circumstance occurs, like the sun going dark, the moon turning to blood, and the stars falling from heaven. In my opinion there would yet be a chance to accept with goodwill the agape of the truth.

At the point of wrath maybe not, maybe it really is all over and the time for repentance has come and gone. Rev 14 is the final chance to turn from unrighteousness and "Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters."

To wrap this up;

No one is advocating taking the mark or worshiping the image to alleviate immense pressure from the battle for the souls of mankind when we have knowledge of the consequences. That would be seen as rebellion and turning away from the one who Saves. No one is saying Rev 14:9-11 is incorrect, or superseded, it will happen as spoken. The gist is one is able to turn from the path of unrighteousness and renounce personal behavior and belief right up to some unspecified moment (when wrath begins?) and appeal to the Lord for salvation.

Here's how I feel about the whole situation;

If there is even the slightest chance in the grimmest of moments at the last tick of time, no matter previous behavior or thought, a person, a soul, must be saved. Love would so dictate being given every chance of salvation, the consequence too dire. We all realize the destiny for those who refuse salvation is eternal torture? It's smoke and flame and torment, with no relief, FOREVER!

The God I know will do everything He can, till the final nanosecond, to justify every possible soul, and receive them to Himself to keep them from eternal misery. So when an individual makes the personal choice to renounce their ways and appeals to the Lord, they will be saved.

 

 

Edited by Diaste
  • Thumbs Up 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, Steve_S said:

The problem really isn't with the word or the translation of it. The texts says what it says. I'm a firm believer that one can get a general understanding of the the message a passage is trying to get across by simply reading the passage. This passage says folks that worship the beast and receive his mark will not be going to heaven. This is not a theological statement, it is a prophetic statement. There is no theological argument here, only a one of prophecy.

When a simple reading of a passage leads to an understanding that contradicts something that's been stated by Jesus, something's wrong.  Worshiping the image and taking the mark is committing the sin of idolatry which, according to Jesus, is a forgivable sin.  When someone reads Rev 14:9-11 and comes to the conclusion that idolatry is unforgivable, that most certainly warrants a closer look.

19 hours ago, Steve_S said:

This underlying Greek word here for "worships" or "worship" (προσκυνέω - probably best transliterated proskyneo or something along those lines) is actually used in multiple tenses throughout the scriptures.

That may be true of the root in general but the passage in question uses a specific tense, transliterated as proskunountes.  According to the source I use, this is the present, active form of the verb.  The same applies to "receives" which is transliterated as lambanei.  Here is a link to the NT Greek source I use.

This is significant because it contradicts the idea that the past action of taking the mark seals one's fate.  The idea that's being conveyed in Rev 14:9-11 is that those who receive the mark and worship the image are the objects of God's wrath, and that if they continue in that sin, they will be lost forever.  Being able to repent of the mark and image harmonizes with what Jesus taught and is consistent with the Greek text.  The only unforgivable sin is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's clear the message is being lost by the words used by "Christians."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×