salvation for the lost

May 24, 2005

Where, out of curiosity, Does it say that death is the deadline? I thought Jesus said if we endure till the end.

Gerioke, Jesus is talking about those who endure to end of the tribulation.

There is no offer of salvation after death. If there is another chance after death, then again, there is no reason to preach the gospel now.

Salvation is received by faith. After death, one will not need faith to know that Jesus is real. Salvation is nowhere offered to those who are passed on. You have to make your decision on this side of the grave.

2 Peter 3:9 tells us that God is not willing that any should perish, but that all would come to repentance. Notice that God did not say that everyone WILL come to repentance. Notice also that God did not say that NO ONE will perish. It is His will that no one dies in sin, but they will.

If there was no danger of perishing eternally, then 2 Peter 3:9 would not have said that.

It is important to realize that God has both a perfect and permissive Will. His perfect Will hates murder, but His premissive Will allows murderers to walk the earth. God's perfect Will is that all men be saved, but His permissive Will allows men and women to reject Him and spend eternity in Hell.

May 24, 2005

Done, Shiloh. Oops.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks

Gerioke · May 24, 2005

I will speak no more of the subject

stevehut · May 24, 2005

I will speak no more of the subject

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think u just did.

OneAccord · May 24, 2005

Universalism is the belief that God does not send people to hell, and the idea that everyone will be saved.

May 25, 2005

Universalism definitely teaches that there will be a judgement, each man will be judged according to his works, BUT the judgement and punishment will be for the purpose of eventual correction rather than eternal damnation.

It is taught that "fire" and (some equate it to "God's wrath") in the Bible represents a divine purification and is used to purify, as in the dross from the silver, not to destroy or torture endlessly.

Universalism is wrong on that point since the "purification" occurs on this side of the grave. It is called "Sanctification." Nowhere is any spoken of in scripture of having been purified after death and then being granted eternal life. It denies the sufficiency of the blood of Christ, and it provides another means of salvation outside of Christ, which the Bible explicitly denies to exist.

Purification/Sanctification is a post-Salvation process. God saves us and then he cleans us up. God always works on us from the inside out. He does not purify us to make us ready to enter heaven. He justifies us by faith through the death of Christ on the cross and then sanctifies us and helps us through the Holy Spirit to remove the old ways and habits we had before salvation.

It is taught that salvation does not stop at the grave, that Hebrews 9:27 is not the definitive verse on this as there are other verses that allude to the contrary (Jesus preaching the gospel to the spirits in hell in 1 Peter 3, for example).

The problem is that the "preaching" is ASSUMED to be the preaching of the gospel, as if Jesus was trying to save those who had previously died, and that is an incorrect assumption, and nothing from the text can be shown to support such an assumption. Jesus preached to those accross the chasm from Abrahams' bosom. What he preached is not told us. Nowhere does it say, that anyone across the chasm were saved. Those in Abraham's bosom went to heaven with Jesus. Those on the other side remained, and do remain to this day awaiting the final sentence of death.

I am not wishing to engage in a debate or discussion, just wanted to clarify the nuts and bolts of what universalism teaches, as there is much misinformation and misunderstanding about this doctrine, which, by the way, is a belief system that existed back with the early fathers (most notably Origen),

The early church fathers were so rife with error, that quoting them as supporting this nonsense only reenforces the illegitiamacy of such a doctrine.

OneAccord · May 25, 2005

Universalism is wrong on that point since the "purification" occurs on this side of the grave. It is called "Sanctification."

stevehut · May 25, 2005

The early church fathers were so rife with error, that quoting them as supporting this nonsense only reenforces the illegitiamacy of such a doctrine.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the Church Fathers. Some of them were personal students of the Apostles, or students of their students. Of course, they are not prophets. But they are, after all, the guys to assembled the Bible for us. It's certainly worth the effort to listen to them.

May 25, 2005

A lot of Christians die far from perfect. What happens between the moment of death and our entry into heaven if there is no further purification? Seems there will be a lot of wretched souls straggling into heaven if there is no further purification.

When a Christian dies he dies with a spirit that has been born of God. He has an eternal spirit that lives on and the born again Spirit is sinless. That is the part of a Christian that lives on. He has no capacity to sin in the afterlife and therefore no no need to be purified. Sin cannot enter heaven, and therefore temptation does not exist there either.

The person who dies without Christ, dies under law. There is no redemption for such people. Again, there is NO hope outside of Christ. There is no "purification" fire that can make a person righteous. Only the blood of Jesus can do that. There is no degree of punishment or judgement that offers any means of salvation.

The righteousness required to enter heaven is only acquired by choice. A choice made freely from the heart to follow Christ. It does not come about after a person is punished, beat down, and "purified." It does not come from some outer source of coersion that amounts to torture.

1 Peter 4:6
For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to {the} {will of} God.

1 Peter 3:9 was talking about a different issue. He was talking about those already in hell awaiting judgement. 1Pet 4:6 is talking about the gospel being preached to those dead in sin. Note that it has been preached to those who ARE dead not to those who WERE dead. It the Greek does not refer those in the grave, but those spiritually dead without Christ. According to Peter, it is being preached to them that they might live in the Spirit (become born again).

If the early church fathers were so rife with error, how can you be so sure that your particular doctrine is the right one???

I cannot say, that I am 100% correct in every area, but I know major false teachings when I see them; those that are blatantly unScriptural such as Universalism. Somethings just stand out, and you have to blind not to see the error in such teachings. Any competent exegesis can easily reveal the extreme error in unversalism.

angels4u · May 26, 2005

1 Peter 4:6
For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to {the} {will of} God.

When you're dead you're dead, you either go to heaven or hell, the gospel has been preached to the unbeliever who was dead because he or she didn't believe the gospel, nothing can save him or her anymore after he dies. He has to make a choice when he's alive.

Angels