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R. Hartono

The 2nd coming of Christ : No secret at all

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Rev 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. 16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue ARMAGEDDON.

Kings of the world and their armies will be gathered at Armageddon battle by the "frog" spirit, so as to battle against Jesus and His army/saints.

THEREFORE THE 2ND COMING OF CHRIST WILL BE NO SECRET AT ALL.

HOWEVER THE DAY OF THE RAPTURE OF THE WISE VIRGINS IS NOT KNOWN TO US

Matt 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

THIS IS THE PROOF of THE PRETRIBULATION RAPTURE WHEN GOD TAKES ONE AND LEAVE ANOTHER ONE. WE WILL NOT BE LIVING IN THE TRIBULATION IF WE ARE TAKEN. ITS THE ONE WHO IS LEFT SHALL FACE IT.

 

 

 

 

Edited by R. Hartono

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On 11/17/2018 at 9:39 PM, R. Hartono said:

HOWEVER THE DAY OF THE RAPTURE OF THE WISE VIRGINS IS NOT KNOWN TO US

Correct. But lets look at the whole story.  These 10 were waiting for the groom. Everything was prepared and all that was left is the APPEARANCE of the groom. This means the 10 were in the midst of the time/space moment when conditions existed prior to and during the APPEARING of the groom. 

The cry went out to everyone to, "Come out to meet Him!". This means everyone could see him. In way does this mean that the 5 wise could see Him and the other 5 could not. All 10 could see his physical form. The real problem was the 5 foolish were now burdened with the cares of life and were unable to emerge to meet the Groom. 

This does not imply that the 5 wise met the Groom in secret in a special, invisible, non-appearance.

On 11/17/2018 at 9:39 PM, R. Hartono said:

Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

This is true and I fully agree. But it's only the day and the hour that are unknown. It's it bit like waiting for the birth of a child. You know it's going to be around 9 months from conception. You can see the mother is ready, but no one knows if the birth will begin on any particular day nor at what time of day. 

What I'm pointing out are the conditions moments prior to the 'day and hour' all must exist, in co-existence with us, in multiple time/space moments, right up to birth at some unknown 'day and hour'.

 

On 11/17/2018 at 9:39 PM, R. Hartono said:

Matt 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Then. Then? What's before 'then'? Only 'then' can we know 'now'. The antecedent for Matt 24:40-41 is, 

“Immediately after the distress of those days “‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.

30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 

40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left." So we see that just like a woman with child and soon to give birth certain conditions will exist. In the case of "...that day or hour no one knows..." the sun will have gone out, the moon, the stars are fallen, heaven is shaken, and the whole earth mourns, just prior to "one taken and the other left". In other words "one taken and the other left" can only occur  AFTER  the signs and conditions of Matt 24:30-31

 

On 11/17/2018 at 9:39 PM, R. Hartono said:

THIS IS THE PROOF of THE PRETRIBULATION RAPTURE WHEN GOD TAKES ONE AND LEAVE ANOTHER ONE. WE WILL NOT BE LIVING IN THE TRIBULATION IF WE ARE TAKEN. ITS THE ONE WHO IS LEFT SHALL FACE IT.

The leap is taken! This is only true if one ignores Matt 24:30-39. 

Matt 24:32-35 proves the "one taken and the other left" is only going to occur after the signs and conditions of 30-31.  

 "Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door." Matt 24:33

Huh? SEE all these things? Pretrib says we should see no signs. But here we have Jesus, our Lord and Savior, by whose name we are called, and whom we profess to love and trust and believe, refuting the bedrock tenet of Pretrib Doctrine, imminency. 

What 'things' will we see? 

We will 'see' trumps sound.

We will see horse and rider ravage the earth.

We will see the A of D.

We will see "great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.".

Only then will we see "the sun will be darkened,   and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky,    and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’".

And only after this, " Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.".

No pretrib rapture is possible.

 

 

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On 11/17/2018 at 8:39 PM, R. Hartono said:

Rev 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. 16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue ARMAGEDDON.

Kings of the world and their armies will be gathered at Armageddon battle by the "frog" spirit, so as to battle against Jesus and His army/saints.

THEREFORE THE 2ND COMING OF CHRIST WILL BE NO SECRET AT ALL.

HOWEVER THE DAY OF THE RAPTURE OF THE WISE VIRGINS IS NOT KNOWN TO US

Matt 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

THIS IS THE PROOF of THE PRETRIBULATION RAPTURE WHEN GOD TAKES ONE AND LEAVE ANOTHER ONE. WE WILL NOT BE LIVING IN THE TRIBULATION IF WE ARE TAKEN. ITS THE ONE WHO IS LEFT SHALL FACE IT.

 

 

 

 

Hi RH,

“Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age”……Matt 24:19-20

In this prophetic passage, Jesus is   promising Christians that He will be with them until the end of the age.

“Tell us, when will these thing occur and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?.....Matt 24:3

Jesus responds with two references:

“you will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end”…Matt 24:7

“ This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come”…..Matt 24:8

Jesus is very clear. He will be with us, the church, until the end. This clearly shows that Christians will be present in the Tribulation.

“ The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so it will be at the end of the age”….Matt 13:39-40

Jesus is clear that at the end of the age, the unrepentant will be burned with fire. This event occurs on the Day of the Lord with fire falling at the first trumpet judgment. Jesus promises to be with His Church until that time. Therefore His Church is present on the earth until the trumpet judgments begin.

So what about…..” but of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone”….Matt 24:36

The end of the Tribulation period is believed by most to occur a set number of days (1260)  after the Abomination of Desolation. After that horrible event, the end of the Tribulation will be a known day and thus cannot qualify for the Rapture which must be an unknown day.                                                                                    

But Jesus tells us that for the sake of Christians, and only Christians, those days will be cut short, so they won’t be present the entire 1260 days:

Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short”…..Matt 24:22

Most Christians mistranslate the verse  in Matt 24:36 as saying…”no one knows the day or the hour”

But the Bible actually states…”of that day and hour no one knows”    Linguistically, it must refer back to the last day that Jesus mentioned. It cannot refer to a pretribulation rapture under any circumstance. It must refer back to Matt 24:31, the last day that Jesus mentioned:

“Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other”…..Matt 24:30-31

Also….”Therefore, be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming”….Matt 24:42

             “The Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will”….Matt 24:44

So, Matt 24:30-31 is not the physical Second Coming as pretrib believes, and it has nothing to do with the end of the Tribulation.

IT IS THE PRE-WRATH RAPTURE, AND THAT IS WHY IT WILL OCCUR ON AN UNKNOWN DAY!

 

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10 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

even to the end of the age”……Matt 24:19-20 In this prophetic passage, Jesus is   promising Christians that He will be with them until the end of the age

Apostle John saw two groups of people in heaven :

FIRST GROUP : The great multitude before the Throne, THEY ARE NOT SOULS but living people who escape the END OF THE AGE /7 years tribulation.

Rev 7: 9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands 14.....these are they which came out of great tribulation 16... They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more.

SECOND GROUP : SOULS under the Altar, waiting for their fellows to be killed until the END OF THE AGE / 7 years tribulation.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

 

 

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4 minutes ago, R. Hartono said:

FIRST GROUP : The great multitude before the Throne, THEY ARE NOT SOULS but living people who escape the END OF THE AGE /7 years tribulation.

Rev 7: 9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands 14.....these are they which came out of great tribulation 16... They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more.

Just wondering if there's a specific reason you choose to place Revelation 7 prior to Revelation 6 Chronologically, particularly when we are told explicitly:

Rev 7:14  And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Come out of is fairly definitive statement that speaks to the fact that they were in it, unless of course there is some way to come out of something one isn't in?

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15 hours ago, Diaste said:

 " Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.".

No pretrib rapture is possible.

What goodness is it for Jesus to take one and leave another one ? 

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10 minutes ago, Steve_S said:

Just wondering if there's a specific reason you choose to place Revelation 7 prior to Revelation 6 Chronologically, particularly when we are told explicitly:

Rev 7:14  And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Come out of is fairly definitive statement that speaks to the fact that they were in it, unless of course there is some way to come out of something one isn't in?

May be it will be better if the verses will be written like this : "These are the ones who come out of the beheading in the great tribulation and washed their robes........".

Because apostle John saw two groups of people in heaven :

FIRST GROUP : The great multitude before the Throne, THEY ARE NOT SOULS but living people who escape the beheading.

Rev 7: 9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands 14.....these are they which came out of great tribulation 16... They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more.

 

SECOND GROUP : SOULS under the Altar, they are martyrs waiting for their fellows. THESE DON'T ESCAPE THE BEHEADING.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

THOSE SOULS MUST WAIT UNTIL THEIR FELLOWS/TRIBULATION SAINTS ARE ALSO MARTYRED IN THE 7 YEARS TRIBULATION OF THE WORLD.

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

So we will belong to one of these 3 groups of people in the grief tribulation :

-Those who are raptured alive to heaven as the 1st group

-To be martyred in the tribulation if refuse to worship the beast and their souls to be gathered under the Altar

-To worship the beast like the rest of the world in the grief tribulation.

ARE YOU THE KIND OF BRIDEGROOM WHO WILL LET YOUR BRIDE BEING BEATEN BLACK AND BLUE FIRST BY WICKED PEOPLE ?

 

Edited by R. Hartono

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1 minute ago, R. Hartono said:

May be it will be better if the verses will be written like this : "These are the ones who escape the beheading  of the great tribulation and washed their robes........".

It wasn't written like that though. The verse doesn't say that. The verse says that they come out of the tribulation. To come out of something you have to be in it.

Rev 7:14  And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

I've never heard of anyone or anything coming out of something it isn't in. It's certainly easier to say "the bible should say this," but it doesn't say that at all.

3 minutes ago, R. Hartono said:

ARE YOU THE KIND OF BRIDEGROOM WHO WILL LET YOUR BRIDE BEING BEATEN BLACK AND BLUE FIRST BY WICKED PEOPLE ?

Those people in Revelation 6 are killed, what of them?

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3 minutes ago, Steve_S said:

Those people in Revelation 6 are killed, what of them?

Here is the Bride of Christ taken to the Feast of the Lamb :

Rev 7: 9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands 14.....these are they which came out of great tribulation 16... They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more.

If you are left behind you will gamble your head at the tip of butchering knife and God will let it happen because the rapture has taken place and you are left behind, there's no wedding for you.

 

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Just now, R. Hartono said:

Here is the Bride of Christ taken to the Feast of the Lamb :

Rev 7: 9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands 14.....these are they which came out of great tribulation 16... They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more.

If you are left behind you will gamble your head at the tip of butchering knife and God will let it happen because the rapture has taken place and you are left behind, there's no wedding for you.

 

I'm still going to have to ask how one comes out of something that they aren't in. If these are people who are raptured before the tribulation, how do they come out of it?

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