Those Days Will Be Shortened

[childoftheking]

7 minutes ago, choir loft said:

JESUS said the day and the hour of His return weren't known because of mathematical reasons, not spiritual ones and not ones favored by ignorant Protestants of the post-modern church.

At the heart of the issue is the Year of Jubilee, the calculation of which is unknown and unknowable.  THIS is why Jesus said the day and hour weren't known.

MOSES passed down the Law from God, which included a day of rest called shabbat - or sabbath in English.   Shabbat was to be observed from sundown on Friday until sundown on Saturday.  Shabbat was every 7th day.

MOSES also established the Law that every seventh year was to be a shabbat/sabbath year or sabbatical year.   Every seventh year in a week of years was to be a year of rest for the land.  Certain other requirements were to be observed as well.  Seven years was defined as a week of years, therefore the seventh year in the week of years was a sabbatical year.

MOSES also established the Law that every seven sabbatical years was to be observed as the YEAR OF JUBILEE.   (7 x 7 + 1 = 50)

During the Year of Jubilee all debts were to be erased and all servants and slaves were to be set free.  Any real estate deals were to revert to the original owner.  In other words, God intended an entire reset of society was to take place every fifty years.

Unfortunately Moses died before the 50th year was to be observed.  Joshua, who assumed leadership, never insisted the Year of Jubilee be observed.  Over time the Hebrews lost track of the date for the beginning of the calendar calculation.  By the Babylonian capitivity, no trace of the origins of sabbatical year or Year of Jubilee remained.   By Jesus' time it was totally unknown.  

IT GETS BETTER.....

Calendar calculations about the End Times are generally made by ignorant Protestant Christians who forget that the Hebrew calendar is lunar, not solar.  The solar calendar we currently use wasn't adopted until the 16th century.   All ancient cultures used a lunar calendar.  For instance, Islamic calendars continue to be lunar.   Add to this the fact that Jewish calendars use BOTH lunar and solar dates and you may begin to appreciate the mathematical problem.

AND BETTER......

Not all Jewish holidays and ceremonies begin at sundown on Friday and end at sundown on Saturday.   Some begin at noon. 

THIS IS WHY...

Jesus' disciples asked Our Lord for the day and the hour, according to Jewish tradition and according to the Law of Moses.   Jesus knew what the people were talking about when they asked for day and hour of His second coming.  It's a matter of calculation, not hypothetical assumptions.

It's about mathematics and God isn't revealing the formula.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

Amen, Yeshua will be a part of the First Fruits!!

 

And that definitely associates with the JUBILEE indeed!!

 

Very well written and presented!!

[gordon7777]

God does not care much about mathematics, as we see what the Lord cares about, by what He had to do to give us a lively living hope, and that is also nothing to do with this whole world, we look up at what is eternal instead, and besides the kingdom of Heaven is within us. God did also come to take a people from the Gentiles, and the people of the Hebrews are the examples, of Abraham Isaac and Jacob, through faith, and trusting in the Lord more than ourselves shows what is beyond mathematics or anything in this world offers or any persons opinions:

Acts 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Philippians 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

Mathematics or God restoring the kingdom to Israel which God had put in His power and it was not for them to know the times or the seasons. God does what He wills, it is not of mans concern. Also for Israel to be restored 2000 years later just showed in the answer it was not for a long time. 

Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 

But speaking about the proper kingdom. We did not need Apostle Paul to write to us about that. The follower of Christ already knows all he needs to know. There is no specific time, because it comes unknown. For that day to also not overtake us as a thief, we need to be sober and of the day, with faith and love and hope against hope. Not to be enriched in mathematics, that is not in this Gospel. But enriched in His knowledge, which is His righteousness, to be blameless without fault, without divisions,(as these are a sign of all peoples failure and being deceived)

Romans 4:18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.

Proverbs 13:12 Hope deferred maketh the heart sick: but when the desire cometh, it is a tree of life.

Romans 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

1 Thessalonians 5:5 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

1 Corinthians 1:5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;
6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.
10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

2 Peter 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Revelation 14:5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

Philippians 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

Isaiah 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Psalm 22:31 They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.

1 John 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, childoftheking said:

If you had Common Sense, you would not be fooled like you are!!

You are assuming I am fooled. When you are left behind, you will know who is fooled.

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, childoftheking said:

 

If you had Common Sense, you would not be fooled like you are!!

If you would believe Luke 21:36, you would know God has made a way of escape, to escape the days of GT on the earth. But no, you want to remain behind and face the Beast. Do you imagine you will outfox him? After all, you have been to seminary! It is written that you will be overcome.  That is the only scripture that one can have faith in during those says of great tribulation.  I really hope this works out for you.

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, childoftheking said:

 

We all will be LEFT BEHIND!!

 

Glad to see in order to spread your lie you have used sites promoting your lie!!

 

The Early Church Fathers on Post Tribulation Rapture

 

The Early Church

In this section I wish to show evidence of post-tribulationism in the early church. From what we can gather, they expected to see and be persecuted by the antichrist before the Lord came back, and they expected to go through the Tribulation. They also applied passages which speak of the Tribulation to the church while pre-tribulationists would say that these are for the Jews or for the “tribulational saints” who will be on earth during that time.

The Didache (possibly before A.D. 100)

The author of this work substituted “church” for “elect” where Jesus spoke of gathering together his elect after the Tribulation (Matt. 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27).

So let Thy Church be gathered together from the ends of the earth into Thy kingdom [chapter 9].

Remember, Lord, Thy Church, to deliver it from all evil and to make it perfect in Thy love, and gather it from the four winds, sanctified for Thy kingdom which Thou hast prepared for it [chapter 10].[1]

Barnabas (A.D. 100)

The final stumbling-block approaches . . . [here the author begins to describe the beast, or antichrist]. We take earnest heed in these last days; for the whole [past] time of your faith will profit you nothing, unless now in this wicked time we also withstand coming sources of danger, as becometh the sons of God. That the Black One may find no means of entrance [The Epistle of Barnabas, chapter 4].[2]

Justin Martyr (A.D. 110-165)

The man of apostasy, who speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians . . . [Dialogue with Trypho, chapter 110][3]

Irenaeus (A.D. 120-202)

Tradition says that Irenaeus was a disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of John the apostle.

And they [the ten kings] shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the Church to flight. After that they shall be destroyed by the coming of our Lord [Against Heresies 5.26.1].

But he [John] indicates the number of the name now [the mark of the Beast], that when this man comes we may avoid him, being aware who he is [Against Heresies 5.30.4].

For all these and other words were unquestionably spoken in reference to the resurrection of the just, which takes place after the coming of Antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule; in [the times of] which [resurrection] the righteous shall reign in the earth [Against Heresies 5.35.1].[4]

Tertullian (A.D. 145-220)

He equates Paul’s description of the rapture of the church in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 with Daniel’s description of the second coming.

For we shall, according to the apostle, be caught up into the clouds to meet the Lord [even the Son of man, who shall come in the clouds, according to Daniel] and so shall we ever be with the Lord [Against Marcion 3.25].

And that the beast Antichrist with his false prophet may wage war on the Church of God . . . Since, then, the Scriptures both indicate the stages of the last times, and concentrate the harvest of the Christian hope in the very end of the world [On the Resurrection of the flesh, chapter 25].

Now the privilege of this favor [to be clothed with immortality] awaits those who shall at the coming of the Lord be found in the flesh, and who shall, owing to the oppressions of the time of Antichrist, deserve by an instantaneous death, which is accomplished by a sudden change, to become qualified to join the rising saints; as he writes to the Thessalonians: [He goes on to quote 1 Thess. 4:15-17, On the Resurrection of the Flesh, chapter 41][5]

Hermas (A.D. 160)

Happy are ye who endure the great tribulation that is coming on, and happy they who shall not deny their own life [The Shepherd of Hermas, Vision 2:2].

Now some have seen a pre-tribulation rapture in the following passage:

Go, therefore, and tell the elect of the Lord His mighty deeds, and say to them that this beast is a type of the great tribulation that is coming. If then ye prepare yourselves, and repent with all your heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for you to escape it, if your heart be pure and spotless, and ye spend the rest of the days of your life in serving the Lord blamelessly [Vision 4:2].

However, if we keep reading we see that the way of escape is by protection through the Tribulation:

For as gold is tested by fire, and thus becomes useful, so are you tested who dwell in it. Those, therefore, who continue steadfast, and are put through the fire, will be purified by means of it. For as gold casts away its dross, so also will ye cast away all sadness and straitness, and will be made pure so as to fit into the building of the tower. But the white part is the age that is to come, in which the elect of God will dwell, since those elected by God to eternal life will be spotless and pure. Wherefore cease not speaking these things into the ears of the saints. This then is the type of the great tribulation that is to come. If ye wish it, it will be nothing [Vision 4:3].[6]

However, this is not a doctrinal work but is the record of a vision which Hermas experienced. Here a woman is telling him these things which he is in turn recording. This entire book is riddled with very strange teachings.

Hippolytus (170-236)

Now, concerning the tribulation of the persecution which is to fall upon the Church from the adversary, John also speaks thus: “And I saw a great and wondrous sign in heaven . . .” That refers to the one thousand two hundred and threescore days [the half of the week] during which the tyrant is to reign and persecute the Church [Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, chapters 60-61].[7]

Cyprian (A.D. 200-258)

With the exhortation of His fore-seeing word, instructing, and teaching, and preparing, and strengthening the people of His Church for all endurance of things to come, He predicted and said that wars, and famines, and earthquakes, and pestilences would arise in each place . . . as the Lord Himself promises, saying, “But when ye see all these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is at hand” [Treatise 7.2].

The day of affliction has begun to hang over our heads, and the end of the world and the time of Antichrist to draw near, so that we must all stand prepared for the battle . . . A severer and a fiercer fight is now threatening [Epistle 55:1].[8]

Victorinus (third or fourth century)

Victorinus wrote the first known commentary on the book of Revelation. Notice how he expects the church to see these events in his comments on 7:2:

He speaks of Elias the prophet, who is the precursor of the times of Antichrist, for the restoration and establishment of the churches from the great and intolerable persecution [Commentary on the Apocalypse of John 7:2].[9]

Augustine (354-430)

But he who reads this passage[Daniel 12], even half asleep, cannot fail to see that the kingdom of Antichrist shall fiercely, though for a short time, assail the Church before the last judgment of God shall introduce the eternal reign of the saints [The City of God, Chapter 23].[10]

There is no need to go back in time;  our current generation has many leading Pastors, leaders of ministries, or authors who believe in a posttrib rapture or some other false doctrine on the rapture.

Richard F. Ames, Herbert W. Armstrong, Garner Ted Armstrong, Mark Armstrong, Doug Batchelor, Irvin Baxter, Jr., Marian G. Berry, Shawn Boonstra, John Bradshaw, William Marrion Branham, Harold Camping, David Chilton, Andrew Corbett,  Fred R. Coulter, Ronald L. Dart, Gary DeMar, Frank DiMora, David Dolan, Scot A. Dryer, Gerald Flurry, Charlene Fortsch, Kenneth Gentry, Robert Gundry, Douglas Hamp, Hendrik (Hank) Hanegraaff, Jonathan Hansen, Robert C. Harris, Stan Johnson, Monte Judah, Dennis Avi Lipkin, James Lloyd, Dave MacPherson, Walter Martin, E. Lonnie Melashenko, Roderick C. Meredith, Bob Mitchell, Arnold Murray, David C. Pack, Garrett (Gary) P. Parrish, David Pawson, Herb Peters, Richard H. Perry, Jacob Prasch, Don K. Preston, Joel Richardson, John Ritenbaugh, Pat Robertson, Michael Rood, Marvin J. Rosenthal, Walid Shoebat, R.C. Sproul, Kevin R. Swift, Paul Thigpen, Robert Van Kampen, Walter J. Veith, Tim Warner, Ronald Weinland,  Charles Wheeling, Rick Wiles, David Wilkerson, Steve Wohlberg...

The list could go on: these people have been or are leaders of ministries, or have written books. Some have gone to Prewrath, some to preterism, some to Post-trib. ONe thing certain, they are NOT pretrib. I have read some of their books. You may recognize some of these people.

The real point is, what does the scriptures teach? I say they teach a pretrib rapture. Anyone who goes to Matthew 24 to find Paul's rapture is already lost in understanding scripture.  Tell me, what other scripture does posttrib have besides Matthew 24?

Edited May 8, 2019 by iamlamad

[childoftheking]

51 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

If you would believe Luke 21:36, you would know God has made a way of escape, to escape the days of GT on the earth. But no, you want to remain behind and face the Beast. Do you imagine you will outfox him? After all, you have been to seminary! It is written that you will be overcome.  That is the only scripture that one can have faith in during those says of great tribulation.  I really hope this works out for you.

 

 

You really have a good imagination and understand how to S...T...R...E...T...C...H the Truth!!

 

34And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

 

This HAS NOTHING to do with a Tribulation at all!!

This about falling into snares, being a drunk, caring about this life ... you know, having our minds on things of this world instead of having our minds upon God.

 

And you turn this one verse as a foundational point for Pre-Trib hahahahahahahahaha

 

Amazing, and you have accused me over and over of putting scripture out of place to create a viewpoint.   But at the same, you have taken one scripture about escaping the snares and traps of this world,and created a literal mythical platform for Pre-Trib.

 

You are as wishy washy as it gets!!

Edited May 8, 2019 by childoftheking

[iamlamad]

9 minutes ago, childoftheking said:

You really have a good imagination and understand how to S...T...R...E...T...C...H the Truth!!

34And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

This HAS NOTHING to do with a Tribulation at all!!

This about falling into snares, being a drunk, caring about this life ... you know, having our minds on things of this world instead of having our minds upon God.

And you turn this one verse as a foundational point for Pre-Trib hahahahahahahahaha

Amazing, and you have accused me over and over of putting scripture out of place to create a viewpoint.   But at the same, you have taken one scripture about escaping the snares and traps of this world,and created a literal mythical platform for Pre-Trib.

You are as wishy washy as it gets!!

Its really very simple: the vast majority of believers today are going to escape in the pretrib rapture. They will be EXPECTING His coming.  For those not expecting His coming, they will probably be left behind, and be a part of the remnant John wrote of in chapter 12 of Revelation.

Just WHAT will those who are caught up pretrib escape? Luke wrote, "all these things."

All what things? Luke's is only one view of the Olivet Discourse. For all the things we can escape, we need to read Matthew 24 and Mark 13. just one thing those who are are part of the pretrib rapture will be Matthew 24:15: the abomination event, and the days of GT that follow. 

Again, if you wish to remain behind and tribulate, that is between you and God. The truth is, all but the remnant of Rev. 12 are going out before God's wrath begins, which will be before the entire 70th week.

Edited May 8, 2019 by iamlamad

[childoftheking]

7 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Its really very simple: the vast majority of believers today are going to escape in the pretrib rapture. They will be EXPECTING His coming.  For those not expecting His coming, they will probably be left behind, and be a part of the remnant John wrote of in chapter 12 of Revelation.

Just WHAT will those who are caught up pretrib escape? Luke wrote, "all these things."

All what things? Luke's is only one view of the Olivet Discourse. For all the things we can escape, we need to read Matthew 24 and Mark 13. just one thing those who are are part of the pretrib rapture will be Matthew 24:15: the abomination event, and the days of GT that follow. 

Again, if you wish to remain behind and tribulate, that is between you and God. The truth is, all but the remnant of Rev. 12 are going out before God's wrath begins, which will be before the entire 70th week.

3 Reasons Why There Cannot Be A Pre-Tribulation Rapture

• Over the years since I have been a Christian I have had many people try to persuade me that the Bible clearly teaches a Pre-Tribulational Rapture.

For those that don’t know what that means, I’ll offer a brief explanation. Among Christians that hold that the Bible accurately records the past and has predicted and continues to predict the future (I happen to be one of those). There are a majority of believers that hold to the idea that at some point in the future Jesus is going to return to the Earth to judge the world and establish His rule over the Earth for a thousand years. In addition to this belief there is also another belief that prior to His return, God is going to bring terrible judgment upon the world in a similar way that He judged the Egyptians during the time of Moses in the book of Exodus. This period of  judgement is believed to last for a total of 7 years before Jesus actually returns, and this 7 year period is often referred to as the Tribulation or Great Tribulation. The Pre-Tribulation Rapture is a belief that prior to this Tribulation, true Christians that are alive at that time will be unpredictably and instantaneously caught up from the Earth by God, their bodies transformed into immortal bodies and that during the 7 years of judgement and suffering on Earth, Christians will be in Heaven being spiritually married to Jesus and will be enjoying a 7 year feast.

It is the teaching that Christians will not be present during the Tribulation that I take issue with. When dealing with this subject I will be appealing to the Bible to make my case. Some of the examples will be parallel to other stories or types from scripture and others are declarative statements on the subject. All will demonstrate the the idea of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture is built upon weak presuppositions that can easily be refuted.

Reason 1:

One of the main arguments that I have heard to support the Pre-Tribulation Rapture is that a loving God would not allow His children to suffer through such a difficult time.

This argument is foolish. There are numerous examples in both the Old and New Testaments of people that suffered to the glory of God as testimony to those who have gone before and those who will come after us. I think of Job who through no fault of his own suffered terribly while his “friends” rather than showing him sympathy falsely said that Job was suffering for the wrongs he had committed. But in the end he was vindicated and God blessed him greatly. Job did not know it but it was actually God who was vindicated and Satan was defeated.

The book of Hebrews gives a list of heroes from the Old Testament that describes how they endured suffering by faith. These were given as examples to us.

But lets move to the New Testament. Did the Father love Jesus? Of  course He did, but Jesus was crucified and then raised to glory. John the Baptist, beheaded. Steven, stoned to death. The Apostles, stoned, imprisoned, tortured, destitute, murdered.

The early Church was persecuted beyond measure. Parents were made to watch their children be murdered right in front them unless they renounced their faith in Jesus. They were covered in pitch, tied to poles and set on fire to entertain the Roman rulers. They were fed alive to lions and bears in front of cheering crowds. They hid in burial tunnels beneath the city of Rome.

And history is replete with these examples to this very day. If you are raised a Muslim in a Muslim country and become a Christian, often you will be put to death. The Communists have murdered countless Christians because they dare to believe that God is greater than the State.

So let me ask you, does God not love those who have suffered for His Name? That is a rhetorical question. Of course He does. So to say that God will exempt Christians from suffering because we are His Bride is not consistent with the rest of the Bible. Instead we should say as Job did, “Though He slay me, yet will I hope in Him”

Reason 2:

Exodus: A parallel to the coming of God’s Judgement and Deliverance. Moses himself said that God was going to send someone after him that was like him, speaking of Jesus. Pharaoh held God’s people in slavery for generations but the time came when God said enough, I will judge those who oppressed My People. He sent Moses to stand before Pharaoh telling him to repent, and each time Pharaoh ultimately refused. So God sent terrible plagues on the land of Egypt, very similar to the plagues mentioned in the book of Revelation. In Exodus God made a distinction between His people and the people of Egypt when it came to how the plagues affected them, but still they remained in Egypt as God’s judgement rained down.

It was after the plagues and judgments that God caught up His people and took them out of Egypt, but only those who were covered by the blood of the Passover lamb. When Pharaoh pursued them God Himself took Pharaoh and his army and drowned them in the depths of the sea. In the same way, the book of Revelation states that after God’s judgement and deliverance he binds Satan for a thousand years casting him into the abyss. Sound familiar? It was after that that God literally dwelt in the midst of his people. In the same way when we are caught up to be with God we shall always be with Him. These are the things Paul said we should comfort one another with. When do we need comfort? When we are suffering.

 Reason 3:

The Bible explicitly states that the dead in Christ will be resurrected. After this resurrection we are told that we will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air, what we refer to as the rapture. But when does the resurrection take place? The scripture clearly answers this question. At the last trumpet. In other words after the plagues. I have dealt with this topic in depth in other posts.

Why Am I Writing This?

It’s not because I want to pick a fight. Pre-Tribulationism is a potentially dangerous false teaching. Why? Because it exempts us from suffering and at the same time teaches that a God of love will not allow His children to suffer. As we draw nearer to the return of Jesus our faith must be able to withstand whatever may come because we are told that many will fall away from the faith. Jesus even said “When the Son of Man returns will He find faith on the Earth?” May He not say that of us. Consider our brethren in lands hostile to the Gospel and pray that we will have the fortitude to stand with them when our time of testing comes. Amen.

Edited May 9, 2019 by childoftheking

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, childoftheking said:

3 Reasons Why There Cannot Be A Pre-Tribulation Rapture

• Over the years since I have been a Christian I have had many people try to persuade me that the Bible clearly teaches a Pre-Tribulational Rapture.

For those that don’t know what that means, I’ll offer a brief explanation. Among Christians that hold that the Bible accurately records the past and has predicted and continues to predict the future (I happen to be one of those). There are a majority of believers that hold to the idea that at some point in the future Jesus is going to return to the Earth to judge the world and establish His rule over the Earth for a thousand years. In addition to this belief there is also another belief that prior to His return, God is going to bring terrible judgment upon the world in a similar way that He judged the Egyptians during the time of Moses in the book of Exodus. This period of  judgement is believed to last for a total of 7 years before Jesus actually returns, and this 7 year period is often referred to as the Tribulation or Great Tribulation. The Pre-Tribulation Rapture is a belief that prior to this Tribulation, true Christians that are alive at that time will be unpredictably and instantaneously caught up from the Earth by God, their bodies transformed into immortal bodies and that during the 7 years of judgement and suffering on Earth, Christians will be in Heaven being spiritually married to Jesus and will be enjoying a 7 year feast.

It is the teaching that Christians will not be present during the Tribulation that I take issue with. When dealing with this subject I will be appealing to the Bible to make my case. Some of the examples will be parallel to other stories or types from scripture and others are declarative statements on the subject. All will demonstrate the the idea of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture is built upon weak presuppositions that can easily be refuted.

Reason 1:

One of the main arguments that I have heard to support the Pre-Tribulation Rapture is that a loving God would not allow His children to suffer through such a difficult time.

This argument is foolish. There are numerous examples in both the Old and New Testaments of people that suffered to the glory of God as testimony to those who have gone before and those who will come after us. I think of Job who through no fault of his own suffered terribly while his “friends” rather than showing him sympathy falsely said that Job was suffering for the wrongs he had committed. But in the end he was vindicated and God blessed him greatly. Job did not know it but it was actually God who was vindicated and Satan was defeated.

The book of Hebrews gives a list of heroes from the Old Testament that describes how they endured suffering by faith. These were given as examples to us.

But lets move to the New Testament. Did the Father love Jesus? Of  course He did, but Jesus was crucified and then raised to glory. John the Baptist, beheaded. Steven, stoned to death. The Apostles, stoned, imprisoned, tortured, destitute, murdered.

The early Church was persecuted beyond measure. Parents were made to watch their children be murdered right in front them unless they renounced their faith in Jesus. They were covered in pitch, tied to poles and set on fire to entertain the Roman rulers. They were fed alive to lions and bears in front of cheering crowds. They hid in burial tunnels beneath the city of Rome.

And history is replete with these examples to this very day. If you are raised a Muslim in a Muslim country and become a Christian, often you will be put to death. The Communists have murdered countless Christians because they dare to believe that God is greater than the State.

So let me ask you, does God not love those who have suffered for His Name? That is a rhetorical question. Of course He does. So to say that God will exempt Christians from suffering because we are His Bride is not consistent with the rest of the Bible. Instead we should say as Job did, “Though He slay me, yet will I hope in Him”

Reason 2:

Exodus: A parallel to the coming of God’s Judgement and Deliverance. Moses himself said that God was going to send someone after him that was like him, speaking of Jesus. Pharaoh held God’s people in slavery for generations but the time came when God said enough, I will judge those who oppressed My People. He sent Moses to stand before Pharaoh telling him to repent, and each time Pharaoh ultimately refused. So God sent terrible plagues on the land of Egypt, very similar to the plagues mentioned in the book of Revelation. In Exodus God made a distinction between His people and the people of Egypt when it came to how the plagues affected them, but still they remained in Egypt as God’s judgement rained down.

It was after the plagues and judgments that God caught up His people and took them out of Egypt, but only those who were covered by the blood of the Passover lamb. When Pharaoh pursued them God Himself took Pharaoh and his army and drowned them in the depths of the sea. In the same way, the book of Revelation states that after God’s judgement and deliverance he binds Satan for a thousand years casting him into the abyss. Sound familiar? It was after that that God literally dwelt in the midst of his people. In the same way when we are caught up to be with God we shall always be with Him. These are the things Paul said we should comfort one another with. When do we need comfort? When we are suffering.

 Reason 3:

The Bible explicitly states that the dead in Christ will be resurrected. After this resurrection we are told that we will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air, what we refer to as the rapture. But when does the resurrection take place? The scripture clearly answers this question. At the last trumpet. In other words after the plagues. I have dealt with this topic in depth in other posts.

Why Am I Writing This?

It’s not because I want to pick a fight. Pre-Tribulationism is a potentially dangerous false teaching. Why? Because it exempts us from suffering and at the same time teaches that a God of love will not allow His children to suffer. As we draw nearer to the return of Jesus our faith must be able to withstand whatever may come because we are told that many will fall away from the faith. Jesus even said “When the Son of Man returns will He find faith on the Earth?” May He not say that of us. Consider our brethren in lands hostile to the Gospel and pray that we will have the fortitude to stand with them when our time of testing comes. Amen.

Scott Pruitt is mistaken just as all posttribbers are. But let's examine his reasons.

1. This argument is bogus because it is based on human reasoning, NOT scripture.

2. Reason 2 is bogus because it expects some event in the Old Testament to be an exact type of the rapture scenario: there is no scripture stating this  - it is only human reasoning.

3. "At the last trumpet. In other words after the plagues."  Where or how does he come up with this? There is no scripture even hinting that the last trumpet Paul spoke of is "after the plagues." 

Question: is God going to send angels to gather all trumpets and remove the very memory of trumpets from all people, then prevent anyone from thinking of the name "trumpet"  so that never again can a "trumpet" be sounded? There is no such scripture. Common sense would tell us, Paul's "last trump" is the last of a SERIES. He did not say last trump ever, or last trump ever to be sounded - yet that is what this argument assumes. The very word "last" hints strongly that there is a first. Indeed, the phrase "no man knows the day nor the hour" has been associated with the fast of trumpets since that feast began. It required TWO eye witnesses to SEE the sliver of a new moon and then report it to the High Priest. No one knew if it would be a cloudy day, or if it would be a big enough sliver to be seen. Therefore without much doubt, Paul's "last trump" was referring to the last long trumpet blast at the feast of trumpets. 

The thing is, what do the scriptures teach? John SAW the raptured church in the vision IN HEAVEN before he started the 70th week. What more proof do we need? Yet we do have another proof: Paul Himself shows us his rapture will come just before wrath. Paul also teaches us (for those that can understand his argument) that the departure or departing of the church must come FIRST - the church taken out of the way - and then the man of sin can be revealed. For those that are left behind, and SEE the revealing of the man of sin, they will then KNOW that the day of the Lord has come.

[childoftheking]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Scott Pruitt is mistaken just as all posttribbers are. But let's examine his reasons.

1. This argument is bogus because it is based on human reasoning, NOT scripture.

2. Reason 2 is bogus because it expects some event in the Old Testament to be an exact type of the rapture scenario: there is no scripture stating this  - it is only human reasoning.

3. "At the last trumpet. In other words after the plagues."  Where or how does he come up with this? There is no scripture even hinting that the last trumpet Paul spoke of is "after the plagues." 

Question: is God going to send angels to gather all trumpets and remove the very memory of trumpets from all people, then prevent anyone from thinking of the name "trumpet"  so that never again can a "trumpet" be sounded? There is no such scripture. Common sense would tell us, Paul's "last trump" is the last of a SERIES. He did not say last trump ever, or last trump ever to be sounded - yet that is what this argument assumes. The very word "last" hints strongly that there is a first. Indeed, the phrase "no man knows the day nor the hour" has been associated with the fast of trumpets since that feast began. It required TWO eye witnesses to SEE the sliver of a new moon and then report it to the High Priest. No one knew if it would be a cloudy day, or if it would be a big enough sliver to be seen. Therefore without much doubt, Paul's "last trump" was referring to the last long trumpet blast at the feast of trumpets. 

The thing is, what do the scriptures teach? John SAW the raptured church in the vision IN HEAVEN before he started the 70th week. What more proof do we need? Yet we do have another proof: Paul Himself shows us his rapture will come just before wrath. Paul also teaches us (for those that can understand his argument) that the departure or departing of the church must come FIRST - the church taken out of the way - and then the man of sin can be revealed. For those that are left behind, and SEE the revealing of the man of sin, they will then KNOW that the day of the Lord has come.

 

Everyone is mistaken because of your claim God spoke to you!!

 

No one is buying it all.   The same Holy Spirit in all of us, is also in you.   The problem however, is none of us feel the Holy Spirit quickening when you claim God spoke to you (except those who have been suckered and bought your lies).   And God always allows other believers to be confirmed concerning when He instructs someone.   God did not speak to you, and knowing how false of a doctrine Pre-Trib is, it's rather obvious who did speak to you.   And when I put forth that question to the Holy Spirit, I get my confirmation!!

 

Go preach to someone else, I have no time to entertain Satan!!

Edited May 9, 2019 by childoftheking