God's sovereign choice

[George]

3 minutes ago, Butero said:

By the way, if that other scripture applies about God being righteous, you all are guilty of going contrary to it for allowing for God to use evil spirits or evil in general to bring about his will.  

God allows ... to bring forth his plan of restoration.  Look at Job ... God allowed ... in order to bring a greater glory for Job.   Again, because the very basic premise that God "created" iniquity ... is against the very nature of a Holy, Perfect, and Righteous God!  Just because you can't comprehend "Free Will" ... you're espousing to God ... evil.  Don't you see how ludicrous that is?

[Guest Butero]

17 minutes ago, George said:

Can you prove that God created Lucifer with iniquity?  To say so, is AGAINST the very NATURE of God!   It's not rocket science ... it's simple.   And because your reasoning on this very basic issue ... it's warps the rest of the reasoning you're espousing.  God created everything ... and in creation He said from the beginning .. it is GOOD!

I noticed you did not answer any of my questions.  

What is your answer to where evil originated?  It is a great mystery.  That is it.  Then there is the other fall back of free will, but that doesn't explain where evil originated.  If God did not create Lucifer with the iniquity as part of him at the start, that means iniquity can be produced out of thin air, which means that anyone or anything in heaven could become evil at any time.  Michael the archangel could become evil if that were true, but I don't believe it is.  So what is your answer for how evil could be discovered in an angel that didn't have evil to begin with?  What made him become evil in a perfect environment?  Why would God create an angel he knew would go bad?  

When God spoke of creating everything good, that didn't include angels.  They already existed.  By the way, the Bible states that there are numerous sins that will keep a person from inheriting the Kingdom of God.  I have pointed this out time and again.  Those who hold to OSAS say that nothing they do can keep them from making it to heaven, which means they deny scripture.  The Bible says no drunkard shall inherit the Kingdom of Heaven, but they say a saved drunkard shall inherit the Kingdom of God.  Does that show they don't believe in the inerrancy of scripture?  How about the unpardonable sin of speaking against the Holy Ghost?  Anyone not mute could do that, including a Christian.  When people say the unpardonable sin is unbelief, which contradicts scripture, does that mean they reject inerrancy of scripture?  

[George]

1 minute ago, Butero said:

I noticed you did not answer any of my questions.  

There's no need go further ... when the very premise of YOUR QUESTIONING comes from a flawed point of origin.  We have to establish the very first basic fact.  When I'm talking to an atheist ... and I start with the premise of intelligent designer ... if they can't accept "intelligent designer" ... I don't go any further because without that VERY BASIC understanding ... there's no where to go.  I won't continue down a thought process ... when the very initial premise is un-scriptural and against the very nature of God.

[Guest Butero]

12 minutes ago, maryjayne said:

nope. God permits the evil spirits to exercise free will, and they choose to bring about evil. God then uses the consequences of that evil for ultimate good. A very different concept from what are suggesting. God does not use the evil spirits themselves, He brings good from evil.

And on the subject of spiritual qualifications, a reminder that the Pharisees knew the scripture inside out and were teachers of it. It counted for nothing in the eyes of Jesus.

When you are going to attempt to be a teacher, it kind of helps to know the scriptures.  2 Chronicles 18:18-22

Again he said, Therefore hear the word of the LORD; I saw the LORD sitting upon his throne, and all the host of heaven standing on his right hand and on his left.  And the LORD said, Who shall entice Ahab king of Israel, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?  And one spake saying after this manner, and another saying after that manner.  Then there came out a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will entice him.  And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith?  And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.  And the LORD said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so.  Now therefore, behold the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee.  

 

[Guest Butero]

17 minutes ago, maryjayne said:

what, specifically, is the difference?

The difference is outward behavior verses reality.  It is like the difference in obeying for appearance sake or out of fear as opposed to from the heart.  

[Guest Butero]

6 minutes ago, George said:

There's no need go further ... when the very premise of YOUR QUESTIONING comes from a flawed point of origin.  We have to establish the very first basic fact.  When I'm talking to an atheist ... and I start with the premise of intelligent designer ... if they can't accept "intelligent designer" ... I don't go any further because without that VERY BASIC understanding ... there's no where to go.  I won't continue down a thought process ... when the very initial premise is un-scriptural and against the very nature of God.

I don't believe it is unscriptural or against the nature of God, but I see no need to continue arguing over it either.  

[George]

1 minute ago, Butero said:

I don't believe it is unscriptural or against the nature of God, but I see no need to continue arguing over it either.  

I'm reading through this thread that you had with Shiloh and your reasoning that God "created iniquity" really does warp your entire theological process.  Because your argument from the beginning is flawed ... it shapes your misunderstandings ... and thus leads you to incorrect conclusions.

 

[Guest Butero]

1 minute ago, George said:

I'm reading through this thread that you had with Shiloh and your reasoning that God "created iniquity" really does warp your entire theological process.  Because your argument from the beginning is flawed ... it shapes your misunderstandings ... and thus leads you to incorrect conclusions.

 

That is a matter of opinion.  I have told this story, but it bears repeating.  I have watched over and over again all the debates over OSAS, and how one side will take all the scriptures that supports their claims and use them, while ignoring the other side, and if they are pressured to answer, they will give very weak and timid replies.  I was on the job one day going down the highway, and I asked the Lord to reconcile the scriptures for me, as he said the Holy Spirit will be our teacher and guide us into all truth.   The answer I got was sudden and unexpected, predestination and election.  That was the key to understanding it all.  I know this was not me simply reconciling it myself because I had rejected that notion long before.  I used to work with Calvinists, and I rejected the idea based on human reasoning and what I thought to be basic fairness.  When this was revealed to me, I knew it fit.  When I looked into the Bible, I could see it was true.  I would also point out that I have watched as those for and against OSAS battle it out and they can't really reconcile all the scriptures, but I can.  

One thing that also helped shape my views was not just reading the Bible, but listening to it in large chunks at a time while going down the road.  You get a different perspective doing that than simply reading a few chapters a day.  Go through an entire book at a single sitting and it changes the meaning.  

[George]

1 minute ago, Butero said:

That is a matter of opinion.  I have told this story, but it bears repeating.  I have watched over and over again all the debates over OSAS, and how one side will take all the scriptures that supports their claims and use them, while ignoring the other side, and if they are pressured to answer, they will give very weak and timid replies. 

Since we're not talking about OSAS ... why do you bring this up?   The very PREMISE of who God is ... His Holiness, His Righteousness, His Love -- all his attributes which are PERFECT -- suddenly gets thrown out the window when you BELIEVE that GOD CREATED INIQUITY!   

And from this flawed starting point ... warps your entire theological understanding ... I continue to press you on this point, because it's BASIC -- elementary almost ... you want to get to the deeper things of God ... it must begin from a proper understanding of WHO GOD IS!  Otherwise ... it's all skewed ... 

If I build a house on a SLANTED foundation ... the house will be SLANTED!  This very basic foundational point ... has caused a slanted view of the rest of your understandings ... this is why it's important!

[Guest Butero]

3 minutes ago, maryjayne said:

 

a lying spirit (fallen angel) came up with a suggestion, which God gave him permission to carry out. That is all this passage speaks of. Just as God gave satan permission to test Job. God remained in control.  

When you are going to attempt to be a teacher, it kind of helps to know the scriptures, and read around the context. This passage of scripture is part of a larger story, which i just happened to be reading the other day.

God told him to do it. "Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail, go out, and do even so."  He had lying spirits in the meeting with him, and not only agreed to let him do it, he sent him out on the mission.