Why Pretrib Logic Fails

[iamlamad]

Just now, Godismyloveforever said:

All kinds of things concerning the rapture will fail for those who either think the rapture and second coming are the same event, or who know they are two different events, yet still continue to mix end times signs with rapture. 

Please expand on this.

[iamlamad]

42 minutes ago, luigi said:

I agree with you that the Lords Wrath is not the tribulation. The tribulation in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, in which there are wars, pestilences and other calamities on earth is not the Lord's wrath. Everyone is on the earth through this tribulation (beginning of sorrows), before the faithful are caught up.

 

42 minutes ago, luigi said:

I agree with you that the Lords Wrath is not the tribulation. The tribulation in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, in which there are wars, pestilences and other calamities on earth is not the Lord's wrath. Everyone is on the earth through this tribulation (beginning of sorrows), before the faithful are caught up.

Agreed: it is the church age: the "beginning of sorrows."

[iamlamad]

54 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. (Rev 11:18)

The Word "Come" here is present tense, not past tense as you imagine. this is the seventh trumpet. Please look this up. The Wrath of the Lamb is distinct from and diverse from the Wrath of God... Yes, Jesus is God, but there is a distinct reason for the difference in terms given to John. You should study this further. One speaks of the day of Christ the other speaks of the day of the LORD. Both happen after the wrath of Satan.

Sorry, but you are talking about an English word translated from a Greek Aorist tense verb. Of the Aorist tense Strong's wrote" not inflected to show tense." In other words, there is no timing information in that Greek word. There is no English verb that would be an exact English translation for ALL English verbs have timing information. In fact, in every case where John wrote, "is come" in Revelation, it is an Aorist verb.  All John is saying is, God's wrath started at the 6th seal (We can believe John remembers that he wrote the DAy of God's wrath started then) and has continued up to this time, and will continue on through the vials. 

I will agree, God's wrath (FAther God) is written to come for the entire 70th week, starting at the 6th seal as the DAY of His wrath, and continuing on through the vials of His wrath at the end of the week. And for sure Jesus the SON has anger when He descends to Armageddon - although I can't recall a specific verse that tells us this. "Day of Christ"  - at least in the KJV - is not used in Revelation.  

No, both do NOT happen after the wrath of Satan. The Day of the Lord, or the Day of His wrath, will begin at the 6th seal, before the 70th week begins - showing us that the entire 70th week will come with His wrath. Try following John's chronology! 

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

Only compounds the error. You're close, but no cigar.

Please point out this "error." I doubt it exists.

[dhchristian]

6 hours ago, iamlamad said:

"Day of Christ"  - at least in the KJV - is not used in Revelation.  

No, it is used in 2 Thess. 2. 

Ask yourself, who is Satan going to pour his wrath out upon, Using the house divided rule that Jesus spoke of. You presume Satan is a bafoon, who does not know his left hand from his right hand, and that is the only way your logic here works. Just think about this before you respond In light of Jude 1:8-10 as well. 

God bless

 

[iamlamad]

30 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

No, it is used in 2 Thess. 2. 

Ask yourself, who is Satan going to pour his wrath out upon, Using the house divided rule that Jesus spoke of. You presume Satan is a bafoon, who does not know his left hand from his right hand, and that is the only way your logic here works. Just think about this before you respond In light of Jude 1:8-10 as well. 

God bless

 

Sorry, but no one knows if Paul wrote "day of Christ" or "Day of the Lord" in 2 Thes. 2. Some Greek texts use each. Since Paul used "Day of the Lord" in his first letter, I think a good guess would be to use "Day of the Lord" in his second letter. Anyway it fits the context. 

I assume Satan hates the Jews and hates those that love Jesus perhaps a little more than he hates all humans. In Rev. 12 John tells us she will go after the Jews that flee, but failing there will turn and go after all who love Jesus. 

Did you ever stop to think that back in Moses time is FAR different than now, after Satan was conquered. We have authority over the devil. 

Maybe I am not understanding you here. Can you enlighten me?

[Diaste]

17 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Please point out this "error." I doubt it exists.

The error is in thinking the land and nation of Israel is equivalent to practicing Jewry. It is not. The land of Israel, the very ground, has importance to God in that He chose this plot of land to establish His kingdom, in the borders of that designated piece of ground. Every person on earth is either a believer or a nonbeliever in Christ and there is no other segregation.

Your take is that practicing Jewry has some special regard of punishment reserved beyond that of others. There is no basis for this in scripture.

You mistake the metaphor of the olive tree and seem to fall just short of the understanding of the identity of the seed of Abraham.

Many, like you, create groups which in the eyes of God do not exist: The church, practicing Jewry, tribulation saints, raptured saints, etc.

In twisted conceptions of the people of God you would have the Jews beaten exceeding all others, while the raptured saints watch in glee from the grandstand witnessing their own brothers and sisters tortured and murdered for 7 years.

There is no Jew or Greek. All will partake in the blessing and the cursing.

An oft ignored truth:

"For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who disobey the gospel of God?"

 

[luigi]

23 hours ago, iamlamad said:

 

Agreed: it is the church age: the "beginning of sorrows."

If by church age you mean the saints experiencing tribuation during the abomination of desolations reign as depicted in Mark 13, Luke 21, and Matthew 24, then yes I agree.

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

The error is in thinking the land and nation of Israel is equivalent to practicing Jewry. It is not. The land of Israel, the very ground, has importance to God in that He chose this plot of land to establish His kingdom, in the borders of that designated piece of ground. Every person on earth is either a believer or a nonbeliever in Christ and there is no other segregation.

Your take is that practicing Jewry has some special regard of punishment reserved beyond that of others. There is no basis for this in scripture.

You mistake the metaphor of the olive tree and seem to fall just short of the understanding of the identity of the seed of Abraham.

Many, like you, create groups which in the eyes of God do not exist: The church, practicing Jewry, tribulation saints, raptured saints, etc.

In twisted conceptions of the people of God you would have the Jews beaten exceeding all others, while the raptured saints watch in glee from the grandstand witnessing their own brothers and sisters tortured and murdered for 7 years.

There is no Jew or Greek. All will partake in the blessing and the cursing.

An oft ignored truth:

"For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who disobey the gospel of God?"

Your take is that practicing Jewry has some special regard of punishment reserved beyond that of others. There is no basis for this in scripture.

Diaste, I did not say it, Daniel said it: 

⁷ Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished.

 

God Himself called them "the Holy People."  Are you going to believe what God said, or have your own theory?  Do you imagine the 70th week of Daniel was MY plan? It is GOD'S plan. It is also God's plan that every one of the judgments written in Revelation happen as written.  Don't try to second guess God and His plans for the Jews! You would write them off because they have rejected their own Messiah.  We should be thanking GOD they rejected Him, so that God would turn to the Gentiles. 

 

Romans 11:25

For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

 

Are you being wise in your own opinion? Or do you truly believe this?  Don't ever say "there is no Jew or Greek." God HIMSELF has called mentioned both in this verse. 

 

Romans 1:16

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.

 

Romans 2:9

Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

 

Romans 2:10

But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

 

Romans 3:29

Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

 

Don't fight against the word of God: He separates them in His word. The Jew and the Gentile become one ONLY in the realm of the Spirit when they are born again. But in the flesh, they are still Jew and Gentile. 

 

Every person on earth is either a believer or a nonbeliever in Christ and there is no other segregation.  The first part of this is truth, the second part is not. Of the nonbelievers in Christ, there are Gentiles and there are Jews, and of the Jews, God made promises He will not forget. He is going to bring 1/3 of them through the fire of purification: as Daniel wrote, totally shatter their power (they trust in their IDF) until they have NO OTHER CHOICE but to call upon God. Not my idea, Daniel wrote it. 

 

Many, like you, create groups which in the eyes of God do not exist: The church, practicing Jewry, tribulation saints, raptured saints, etc.  I only choose to believe what the bible teaches. I did not make up these groups. They are all found in scripture. The difference: I choose to believe what is written. (Note, not written in so many words, as you have written; but these groups are certainly written.) 

 

"For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who disobey the gospel of God?"

 

Wow! do you not realize you said it yourself in this verse: those that disobey the gospel will be WORSE punishment. 

 

I have decided: the error is on your side of this discussion. 

[iamlamad]

8 minutes ago, luigi said:

If by church age you mean the saints experiencing tribuation during the abomination of desolations reign as depicted in Mark 13, Luke 21, and Matthew 24, then yes I agree.

No! That is not at all what the bible teaches! Did you just overlook the words of Jesus in Mat. 24:6? He said "the end is not yet. In other words, He is talking church age, because the things like earthquakes, pestilences, famines, etc are church age events. They align with seals 2 through 4.  

If we look at the large group, too large to number, in Rev. 7: they came out of great tribulation. Here God is calling the entire church age "great tribulation."  John wrote this in chapter 7 before he (and the Holy Spirit) have event begun the 70th week, much less arrived at the second half (chapter 12) where the days of Great tribulation Jesus spoke of will begin. 

The church has no appointments set with any days of God's wrath - and His wrath will be felt for the entire 70th week.  Not my idea, it is what is written.