Evidence VS. Proof

[enoob57]

10 minutes ago, Vince said:

Ok, but that is not good enough reasons for me to believe.  I have studied the bible for 20 years myself and find it to be illogical, contradicting and in many places immoral.  I also find it comforting in places and find good moral teachings.  To use the bible as evidence that god wrote the bible is circular and not reasonable for belief that it was written by god in my opinion.

To interdict that the reasoning from the Bible as God's Word from God Whom has never began nor ever ends could somehow be circular in reason is to place authority to one who has began and has end … a short story of incomplete source!

[JustPassingThru]

28 minutes ago, Vince said:

No person can know god exists,

Sure we can, ...how do I know God exists, ...He has changed me from the inside out, I'm not the same man I used to be after I believed the gospel message and prayed that simple prayer of faith to receive Jesus into my heart, ...don't believe me, no evidence?

Just ask the people that knew me before I was converted, regenerated, born again ...the American jurisprudence system uses witnesses to determine the truth, ...just ask the people I have hurt, cheated, betrayed their trust if I'm a changed man, ...if it's sufficient for a court of law... 

However, I doubt this will be enough for you to believe, ...because you are relying on asking other people if God exists instead of asking Him yourself!

Also, I know you know God exists by the simple fact of what you have written, ...no one can argue any point without first knowing the truth, ...prove it for us, tell us what you can't see, touch, handle doesn't exist, example, gravity, radio waves, atomic matter, you can't see, touch, handle them, you can argue they don't exist, ...but you know they do exist.

So, the real question here is, "Why are you so mad at God?" You have mistakenly accused Him for what someone else has done to you, ...but that's okay, He loves you, He is waiting with open arms to receive you back, He doesn't hold any resentment against you, He just wants you to return to Him before it's too late, time is short, very short, ...do it today, ...today could be your day of Salvation.

Lord bless

[Walk Softly]

4 minutes ago, Vince said:

Just to clarify, I am not saying the Bible is not the word of god. I am saying that there is not sufficient evidence to believe it is. 

Your statements are contradicting.  You are saying you don't have enough evidence to believe its the Word of God.  Therefore, you don't believe it is the Word of God. 

Also, it can't be the Word of God if it is immoral, contradicting and illogical as you called it.  

 

[Walk Softly]

@Vince

I'm being real with you here. 

The issues you finally stated with the Bible are literally the most common objections to God.  All of which I covered in my original posts, including the more in depth discussion you and I had about the inductive principle (upon which we did ultimately agree).  While you argue it doesn't prove God, I would argue that it renders the no God worldview as unable to support it's assumptions.  So where does that leave you? What great faith it takes to continue believing we just haven't figured it out yet!  

It is figured it out, brother.  It's God.  And His revelation to us is the Bible. 

If you want to reason together, you can pm me anytime.  I will listen, I will talk, I will pray... I will do anything to help a brother build his trust in God.  I mean it.  It is never comfortable to have your worldview shaken.  I get that.   

[Walk Softly]

1 hour ago, Abdicate said:

When I started to read the word of God for myself and even going back to the originals, I began unlearning all the garbage that's crept into the church. 

This was so true for myself as well.  It's amazing how often I hear this from people.  

[TomatoHorse]

59 minutes ago, Abdicate said:

Ok, then what way do you want God to deal with you? Speak face to face? It didn't work for Adam, he still sinned. Like Moses and a burning bush? He still sinned and didn't believe God's word so he couldn't enter the promised land. Maybe you want God to be a Genie granting you your every wish. It didn't work for David who turned into an adulterer and murderer. The evidence is there, so tell me, what would satisfy your quest to prove God exists?

But you're comparing a different thing here: perfection - in the context of a relationship that already exists, no less (i.e., they already believed in God). Vince (and myself, for that matter) are not asking for moral perfection. We are asking for an introduction, to start a relationship.

Think of it like this: imagine there is a girl who is single. Some of her friends tell her that there is a guy who is really interested in dating her. This guy has supposedly met with and talked to other people about her. He even sent a friend of his to buy a really expensive wedding ring because he's that serious!

Well, the girl is very excited at first. But days go by, and he never shows up for a date. Then months. Then years! He knows where she lives; he has her phone number; he is rich and has lots of spare time; he's in town, not away traveling. It would literally be the easiest thing in the world for him to introduce himself to her.... so why doesn't he? 

Eventually, what should the girl conclude? Either this guy doesn't really exist - maybe he's a made up story from her girlfriends - or maybe he does exist but just isn't that interested in her after all.

 

Edited February 20, 2019 by TomatoHorse

[Called Out One]

7 minutes ago, TomatoHorse said:

But you're comparing a different thing here: perfection - in the context of a relationship that already exists, no less (i.e., they already believed in God). Vince (and myself, for that matter) are not asking for moral perfection. We are asking for an introduction, to start a relationship.

Think of it like this: imagine there is a girl who is single. Some of her friends tell her that there is a guy who is really interested in dating her. This guy has supposedly met with and talked to other people about her. He even sent a friend of his to buy a really expensive wedding ring because he's that serious!

Well, the girl is very excited at first. But days go by, and he never shows up for a date. Then months. Then years! He knows where she lives; he has her phone number; he is rich and has lots of spare time; he's in town, not away traveling. It would literally be the easiest thing in the world for him to introduce himself to her.... so why doesn't he? 

Eventually, what should the girl conclude? Either this guy doesn't really exist - maybe he's a made up story from her girlfriends - or maybe he does exist but just isn't that interested in her after all.

 

@TomatoHorse - The Bridegroom has already sent out the invitations.  As the parable goes, those who were invited refused to show up because they kept giving excuses, so others were invited in their place.  

Sorry @Walk Softly ... didn't mean to derail ... but the Lord strongly impressed upon me to share this.

 

[TomatoHorse]

13 minutes ago, Abdicate said:

He has shown up, that's the point. He died for you. What would make you believe? What evidence are you looking for? What's "showing up" mean to you?

In my analogy, that was him (the Father) sending someone (the Son) to buy an expensive ring (cost his life) to prove his love.

But to us all that is just hearsay. It's a story, written down by people long ago. The writers of the NT themselves were almost certainly not the original disciples (who were mostly uneducated and illiterate, speaking Aramaic, and couldn't have written Greek even if they knew how to write). 

I have two answers to your question. One answer is that I would be very open to a miraculous appearance of a Being who manifested visibly and spoke to me audibly. Now, you might say that I could doubt even this. And you'd be right, it is possible to doubt the legitimacy of visions (and for good reason - visions can be mistaken or misleading). But I can tell you personally that I  would be very open to such a thing, especially if it happened more than once with a continuity of personality between instances.

A second answer is that maybe I don't know, ultimately, what would change my own mind. We know ourselves - and the future - less than we like to think. But God knows all things, and knows what kinds of things would convince me. And he is 100% capable of revealing the truth of his existence such that I would see that it truly is him. But he has chosen not to do so. This leads me to believe that either he does not exist or isn't really interested in a relationship with me, as sad as that is to write.

 

Edit: @Abdicate, I did read your "proof," and I'm sorry to say it is ... pretty unconvincing. Israel has a story about how their God said they're special (most nations back then thought this about themselves and their own god or gods), and they're still around today as a nation. That doesn't mean their religious stories are real. They were dispersed and now they're back again. That doesn't mean their religion is true.

@Called Out One I think that this post also serves as a response to your story about the bridegrooms. Let me know if you think your point is actually something different.

Edited February 20, 2019 by TomatoHorse

[Called Out One]

6 minutes ago, TomatoHorse said:

In my analogy, that was him (the Father) sending someone (the Son) to buy an expensive ring (cost his life) to prove his love.

But to us all that is just hearsay. It's a story, written down by people long ago. The writers of the NT themselves were almost certainly not the original disciples (who were mostly uneducated and illiterate, speaking Aramaic, and couldn't have written Greek even if they knew how to write). 

I have two answers to your question. One answer is that I would be very open to a miraculous appearance of a Being who manifested visibly and spoke to me audibly. Now, you might say that I could doubt even this. And you'd be right, it is possible to doubt the legitimacy of visions (and for good reason - visions can be mistaken or misleading). But I can tell you personally that I  would be very open to such a thing, especially if it happened more than once with a continuity of personality between instances.

A second answer is that maybe I don't know, ultimately, what would change my own mind. We know ourselves - and the future - less than we like to think. But God knows all things, and knows what kinds of things would convince me. And he is 100% capable of revealing the truth of his existence such that I would see that it truly is him. But he has chosen not to do so. This leads me to believe that either he does not exist or isn't really interested in a relationship with me, as sad as that is to write.

 

Edit: @Abdicate, I did read your "proof," and I'm sorry to say it is ... pretty unconvincing. Israel has a story about how their God said they're special (most nations back then thought this about themselves and their own god or gods), and they're still around today as a nation. That doesn't mean their religious stories are real. They were dispersed and now they're back again. That doesn't mean their religion is true.

@Called Out One I think that this post also serves as a response to your story about the bridegrooms. Let me know if you think your point is actually something different.

What more is there to say @TomatoHorse.  John was testifying to something he was an eyewitness to; thus most definitely not hearsay.  If you do not accept that, there is nothing more to say.  I am praying for you along with my prayers for Vince, though. 

[Walk Softly]

10 minutes ago, TomatoHorse said:

The writers of the NT themselves were almost certainly not the original disciples (who were mostly uneducated and illiterate, speaking Aramaic, and couldn't have written Greek even if they knew how to write). 

Please have a look at this article.  It addresses the issues you stated.  

http://apologeticsguy.com/2016/10/jesus-disciples-illiterate-peasants/