Mid Trib rapture anyone?

[WilliamL]

28 minutes ago, Spock said:

So William, are you implying Jesus was talking about the rapture in some of his words in the Olivet Discourse?  If so, which words (verses in 24-25) do you specifically show are meant for the rapture, not the second com8mg? 

First of all, the Rapture is part of the Second Coming, just as it is part of "the Last Day." Both of those things take place over long periods. The Last Day is the Seventh Millennial 1000-year Day. The Coming of the Lord in the clouds for His Church is merely the beginning of the Second Coming, at which point Christ will be operating both in heaven and on earth.

But to answer your specific question, Matthew 24:30-31 “Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." Likewise, the parable of the virgins in Matthew 25:1-10. And the reference to the flood of Noah.

With respect to one of the Lord's earthly endeavors between the time of the Rapture and the time of His defeat of the Beast and kings of the earth (Rev. 19), see:

 

 

 

[iamlamad]

18 hours ago, The Light said:

Hi LA,

All I can say is if you don’t have the understanding that Revelation is not in order there is not much use in me wasting a bunch of time trying to convince you of the obvious. I certainly understand your inability to place Matt 24 at the 6th seal,even though God is pretty clear with his sign. Of course the sign will be given to the Jews, the twelve tribes. That day, the day of his wrath, will not take them unaware. And yet when the fulness of the Gentiles comes in, the Goodman will not know when the master will return. There is a reason that people can’t figure out of it’s pre trib, mid trib or post trib rapture. That’s because the Gentile is raptured pre trib and the twelve tribes that are scattered across the earth are raptured prewrath. When the wrath of a god begins, only those that flee,when the abomination of desolation is set up, will go through the wrath of God. They will spend time, times and half a time in a place of safety. Gods people do not experience His wrath.

Slow down! Whoa back! What is OBVIOUS is the way it was written by John!  If anyone imagined John missed it and it must be rearranged to make sense, then it is up to them to prove by scripture that a rearranging is justified. 

I guess you can't tell the difference between an invisible moon and a blood moon. Just to help you out, one is a SEEN moon, the other cannot be seen - it is invisible. With no light reflecting on the moon, it is simply not seen at all - invisible. Did you not notice that the stars put out no light either? God is talking about TOTAL DARKNESS. Therefore, OF COURSE the two signs are different.  What you deny is another proof: the sign at the 6th seal will be seen over 7 years before the sign in Matthew 24. One is BEFORE the 70th week, and one is AFTER.  This should be obvious: one is in chapter 6 and is a seal preventing a book from being opened, and the other is after the book has been opened and the contents came to pass.

the twelve tribes that are scattered across the earth are raptured prewrath.   WOW! Imagination running wild! That is, unless you can back this up by scripture rightly divided and understood correctly.

Only those that flee,when the abomination of desolation is set up, will go through the wrath of God.   Right - they will have supernatural protection. 

I disagree with most of your post. However, if you feel a need for rearranging, be my guest. Just know your theory will be proven wrong.

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, WilliamL said:

First of all, the Rapture is part of the Second Coming, just as it is part of "the Last Day." Both of those things take place over long periods. The Last Day is the Seventh Millennial 1000-year Day. The Coming of the Lord in the clouds for His Church is merely the beginning of the Second Coming, at which point Christ will be operating both in heaven and on earth.

But to answer your specific question, Matthew 24:30-31 “Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." Likewise, the parable of the virgins in Matthew 25:1-10. And the reference to the flood of Noah.

William, did you not notice that where this gathering gathers from PROVES it is not Paul's gathering? I would look at it in both Luke and Matthew.

[iamlamad]

10 hours ago, The Light said:

I think Jesus was telling the Jews about the sign of his coming and the end of the age. He tells them about the tribulation period (The first 5 seals) and them he tells them about the sign of his coming, to gather his elect FROM HEAVEN (the church) and EARTH (the twelve tribes).

Oh my! You have this so wrong! The "tribulation period" AKA the 70th week of Daniel, does not even START until the 7th seal. It is marked by 7's. The 7th vial ends it. The first five seals are CHURCH AGE. Just as in Matthew 24 where Jesus said, "the end is not yet," meaning, "I am not yet talking about end times." What Jesus then said about the church age parallels some of the early seals. 

Seal 1 is the CHURCH taking the Gospel to the world. It was opened around 32 AD - as soon as Jesus ascended.

Seals 2-4 are the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the gospel, to HOLD IT within that 1/4 of the earth. (He failed.)

Seal 5 is the martyrs of the church age. 

You are SO FAR OFF in your timing and theories. 

The gathering in Matthew 24 cannot possibly be Paul's gathering, for it gathers in the WRONG PLACE. And it comes AFTER the days of tribulation while Paul's rapture comes before.

These were JEWISH men asking about the end of THEIR age. What is the end of THEIR age? Of course, the 70th week. It is for DAniel's people, not the church.  Proof is that Jesus mentioned the abomination, which divides the week. 

[iamlamad]

18 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi The Light,

Oh but God`s word tells us that the heavens and earth shake and then the Son of Man comes in power and great glory with His angelic army. (Matt. 24: 29 - 31) There is only one shaking of heavens and earth as Heb. 12: 26 tells us. And that is just prior to the Lord descending as the sky rolls back, (Rev. 6:14   & Rev. 19: 11)

The Body of Christ has long gone before then. They will judge the world system and fallen angels, from their position of ruling with the Lord in heaven. (Rev. 3: 21   1 Cor. 6: 2 & 3)

Marilyn.

You are imagining things again that are NOT in evidence: You are imagining an "only."  Sorry, it is NOT THERE. He will shake things at the 6th seal, then again at the 7th  vial. 
At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, "(ONLY) Once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens."

Sorry, but NO ONLY. God is free to shake and shake some more.

[iamlamad]

19 hours ago, The Light said:

I’m attempting to get you to understand that the starting point to understanding Revelation is to put the coming of Jesus, Matt 24 at the 6th seal. This is exactly where God says it goes. That Matt 24 coming is not Armageddon, it is the gathering that Paul says occurs before the day of the Lord.

In other words, you are doing your best to lead Spock into ERROR.  Rosenthal and Van Kampen made that mistake FOR YOU. Why follow them into classic error? They have been proven wrong time and time again. 

The truth is, the sign for the DAY has a blood moon. Light, this means it is SEEN.  The dark moon is speaking of an invisible moon. And an invisible sun, and invisible stars. Light, He is speaking of TOTAL DARKNESS. There is no way you can imagine these are the same.

HOW did John get to chapter 19, and Christ's coming, after the days of GT? First he wrote of the seals opening, SO THAT the book could be opened SO THAT the trumpets could sound, SO THAT Satan could be removed as the god of this world. then, after all that, the vials get poured out - and finally the days of GT are over, and Jesus returns. 

In your theory, the 6th seal has to be moved to chapter 16 or 17 or 18. That is IMPOSSIBLE: the book with the trumpets CANNOT be opened until all 6 seals are opened first. 

AXIOM 2 on Revelation:

ANY theory that does not include the understanding that "the book" in Rev. 5 is a legal document created in heaven and about planet earth and incorporate into that theory the following facts is immediately suspect and will be proven wrong:

1. Neither God nor Satan can begin anything written on or about a seal before that seal can be legally opened. 

2. The purpose of the seals are to PREVENT either God or Satan from opening the book and beginning the events written IN the book - such as any trumpet judgment. 

3. Once a seal is opened, then what is written about that seal can legally begin.

4. The seals are numbered for their proper order. Any theory that attempts to rearrange what John has numbered for sequencing will be wrong.

5. Because the seals are sealing the book, nothing written in Revelation after the 7th seal [what is written INSIDE the book] can possibly come to pass before all the seals are opened so that the book can be opened. Therefore, any theory that moves a seal to align with a trumpet or a vial will be proven wrong. What we read in Revelation after the 7th seal is opened is what is written INSIDE the book: the trumpet judgments are written inside the book.

6. Neither God nor Satan could legally take the book and open the seals. It would have to be a man from the human race. Further, it would have to be a man who could redeem mankind - a man who could escape death and rise again - and escape from hell. 

7. There was a time when Jesus Christ was NOT found worthy to take the book and open the seals. He BECAME worthy once He fulfilled what was required to redeem mankind. 

[Spock]

4 hours ago, WilliamL said:

First of all, the Rapture is part of the Second Coming, just as it is part of "the Last Day." Both of those things take place over long periods. The Last Day is the Seventh Millennial 1000-year Day. The Coming of the Lord in the clouds for His Church is merely the beginning of the Second Coming, at which point Christ will be operating both in heaven and on earth.

But to answer your specific question, Matthew 24:30-31 “Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." Likewise, the parable of the virgins in Matthew 25:1-10. And the reference to the flood of Noah.

With respect to one of the Lord's earthly endeavors between the time of the Rapture and the time of His defeat of the Beast and kings of the earth (Rev. 19), see:

 

 

 

Thanks William. 

How can you be so sure Jesus was talking about a rapture knowing that these guys don’t have a clue about such and he knows that?  

Exegesis 101....context.....who is your audience?  Jews who don’t know anything about rapture or church for that matter.

[The Light]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Oh my! You have this so wrong! The "tribulation period" AKA the 70th week of Daniel, does not even START until the 7th seal. It is marked by 7's. The 7th vial ends it. The first five seals are CHURCH AGE. Just as in Matthew 24 where Jesus said, "the end is not yet," meaning, "I am not yet talking about end times." What Jesus then said about the church age parallels some of the early seals. 

Seal 1 is the CHURCH taking the Gospel to the world. It was opened around 32 AD - as soon as Jesus ascended.

Seals 2-4 are the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the gospel, to HOLD IT within that 1/4 of the earth. (He failed.)

Seal 5 is the martyrs of the church age. 

You are SO FAR OFF in your timing and theories. 

The gathering in Matthew 24 cannot possibly be Paul's gathering, for it gathers in the WRONG PLACE. And it comes AFTER the days of tribulation while Paul's rapture comes before.

These were JEWISH men asking about the end of THEIR age. What is the end of THEIR age? Of course, the 70th week. It is for DAniel's people, not the church.  Proof is that Jesus mentioned the abomination, which divides the week. 

So the rider on the white that carries a bow is Jesus? Sorry but Jesus carries the sword of the spirit. 

Secondly you pay absolutely no attention to what I am saying. Your comment about the 70th week being about the Jews And not the church is correct and if you read anything that I am posting you would know that’s what I’m saying. The church is raptured pretribulation.which of course is before any seals are opened. 

[Marilyn C]

17 hours ago, The Light said:

Matt 24

³¹ And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

I don't see any Armageddon in these verses. I see the gathering that Paul speaks of that occurs before the day of the Lord, the day of his wrath.

 

As far as you saying that the sky rolls back when the armies of heaven come it simply says

Rev 19

¹¹ And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

We can also see heaven opened in:

Rev 4

 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

Additionally, I know that the body of Christ is gone before then. They were rapurted pretrib.

 

Hi The Light,

I agree we go pre-trib, that`s great. Now the Matt. 24 & Rev. 19 references to the sky receded as a scroll, & heaven opened, quite clearly relate to Christ`s coming to earth to bring judgment. The contexts show us this.

Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

6 hours ago, iamlamad said:

You are imagining things again that are NOT in evidence: You are imagining an "only."  Sorry, it is NOT THERE. He will shake things at the 6th seal, then again at the 7th  vial. 
At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, "(ONLY) Once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens."

Sorry, but NO ONLY. God is free to shake and shake some more.

Hi iamlamad,

So God shakes the heavens and earth and says, "once more," and then he does it again and says, "once more," and then He does it again and says "once more"...... Strange for I don`t read that ANYWHERE in God`s word.

Marilyn.