Mid Trib rapture anyone?

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, JohnD said:

As I stated repeatedly, the Bible (not myth) divides the 70th Week in two (1260 days, 42 months, time, times, and half a time).

I also invite you to read carefully what Paul actually wrote in 2 Thessalonians  2:1-4 (and even to verse 11). That the coming of the Lord Jesus and our gathering to him will NOT precede the revealing of the lawless one.

 

I agree 100% on this. This much is very clear in scripture. 

As for 2 Thes. 2:3, read it in this translation:

Geneva Bible (1587)Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,

Notice that in any and all versions, at the end of verse 3 the man of sin IS REVEALED (In Paul's argument.) Therefore according to verses 6-8, the one restraining must be "taken out of the way."  That taking out of the way then, but happen in the first part of verse 3. I think it is there, in that word "departing." It is the gathering that must come first, and then the man of sin is revealed. It is the God, through the church, that is restraining evil. 

The departing then (the gathering) comes FIRST, and then, once the restraining force is gone, the man of sin will be revealed.  If anyone on earth SEES the man of sin be revealed, they can then know for sure, THE DAY has started and they are in it.

[JoeCanada]

18 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I guess you can't tell the difference between an invisible moon and a blood moon. Just to help you out, one is a SEEN moon, the other cannot be seen - it is invisible. With no light reflecting on the moon, it is simply not seen at all - invisible. Did you not notice that the stars put out no light either? God is talking about TOTAL DARKNESS. Therefore, OF COURSE the two signs are different.  

Hi iamlamad, 

Rev 6:12...."the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood and the stars of the sky fell"

Mathew 24:29....." the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky"

So in both of these scriptures, what do we see? 

Both say the sun does not give its light....... correct?....sun being darkened....became black... cannot give light.

Both say the moon does not give its light....correct?....moon becoming like blood cannot give light.

Both say the stars fell from the sky.....correct?

If this is the logic a person uses to differentiate the same event, then I could just as well say that there were 4 resurrections of Jesus. Each Gospel writer describes something different. So, it must be different...RIGHT?

                          In Mathew 28:2...there was ONE angel, sitting on a stone, outside the tomb

                          In Mark 16:5....there was a young man in a white robe, sitting, in the tomb, at the right

                          In Luke 24:4...TWO men in dazzling clothing, standing

                          In John 20:12... Two angels in white, sitting, one at the head and one at the feet 

[The Light]

19 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Quote

Slow down! Whoa back! What is OBVIOUS is the way it was written by John!  If anyone imagined John missed it and it must be rearranged to make sense, then it is up to them to prove by scripture that a rearranging is justified.  

What are you talking about? Revelation is obviously not in order. See the end of chapter 11 or the end of chapter 14 for proof.

Quote

I guess you can't tell the difference between an invisible moon and a blood moon. Just to help you out, one is a SEEN moon, the other cannot be seen - it is invisible. With no light reflecting on the moon, it is simply not seen at all - invisible. Did you not notice that the stars put out no light either? God is talking about TOTAL DARKNESS. Therefore, OF COURSE the two signs are different. 

The signs of His coming in Rev 6 are the same sighs of His coming in Matt 24.

Quote

What you deny is another proof: the sign at the 6th seal will be seen over 7 years before the sign in Matthew 24. One is BEFORE the 70th week, and one is AFTER. 

You are really confused with the seals. They are not opened yet.

 

Quote

This should be obvious: one is in chapter 6 and is a seal preventing a book from being opened, and the other is after the book has been opened and the contents came to pass.

How can the seal in chapter six prevent the book from being opened? The seals are opened one at a time, in order.

 

Quote

the twelve tribes that are scattered across the earth are raptured prewrath.   WOW! Imagination running wild! That is, unless you can back this up by scripture rightly divided and understood correctly.

Certainly I can back it up with scripture. The 144,000 first fruits of the 12 tribes guarantees a harvest. But I think that will be way over your head.

Quote

Only those that flee,when the abomination of desolation is set up, will go through the wrath of God.   Right - they will have supernatural protection. 

?

 

Quote

I disagree with most of your post. However, if you feel a need for rearranging, be my guest. Just know your theory will be proven wrong.

I would love to hear where you think the signs of the sun, moon are stars are in Revelation. I think it's chapter 6 where it talks about the signs of the sun, moon and stars. What chapter do you think those sign are in?

 

 

[The Light]

45 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi iamlamad, 

Rev 6:12...."the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood and the stars of the sky fell"

Mathew 24:29....." the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky"

So in both of these scriptures, what do we see? 

Both say the sun does not give its light....... correct?....sun being darkened....became black... cannot give light.

Both say the moon does not give its light....correct?....moon becoming like blood cannot give light.

Both say the stars fell from the sky.....correct?

If this is the logic a person uses to differentiate the same event, then I could just as well say that there were 4 resurrections of Jesus. Each Gospel writer describes something different. So, it must be different...RIGHT?

                          In Mathew 28:2...there was ONE angel, sitting on a stone, outside the tomb

                          In Mark 16:5....there was a young man in a white robe, sitting, in the tomb, at the right

                          In Luke 24:4...TWO men in dazzling clothing, standing

                          In John 20:12... Two angels in white, sitting, one at the head and one at the feet 

Awesome post. Well done.

[JohnD]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

I agree 100% on this. This much is very clear in scripture. 

As for 2 Thes. 2:3, read it in this translation:

Geneva Bible (1587)Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,

Notice that in any and all versions, at the end of verse 3 the man of sin IS REVEALED (In Paul's argument.) Therefore according to verses 6-8, the one restraining must be "taken out of the way."  That taking out of the way then, but happen in the first part of verse 3. I think it is there, in that word "departing." It is the gathering that must come first, and then the man of sin is revealed. It is the God, through the church, that is restraining evil. 

The departing then (the gathering) comes FIRST, and then, once the restraining force is gone, the man of sin will be revealed.  If anyone on earth SEES the man of sin be revealed, they can then know for sure, THE DAY has started and they are in it.

apostasy (falling away) not departing:

1.    apostōsis (πτῶσις , (4431)), a fall (akin to B, No. 1), is used (a) literally, of the overthrow of a building, Matt. 7:27; (b) metaphorically, Luke 2:34, of the spiritual fall of those in Israel who would reject Christ; the word “again” in the A.V. of the next clause is misleading; the “rising up” (R.V.) refers to those who would acknowledge and receive Him, a distinct class from those to whom the “fall” applies. The fall would be irretrievable, cp. (a); such a lapse as Peter’s is not in view.¶

 W.E. Vine and F.F. Bruce, Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (Old Tappan NJ: Revell, 1981), 73.

646 ἀποστασία [apostasia /ap·os·tas·ee·ah/] n f. Feminine of the same as 647; TDNT 1:513; TDNTA 88; GK 686; Two occurrences; AV translates as “to forsake + 575” once, and “falling away” once. 1 a falling away, defection, apostasy.
ESL

), a defection, revolt, apostasy, is used in the N.T. of religious apostasy; in Acts 21:21, it is translated “to forsake,” lit., ‘thou teachest apostasy from Moses.’ In 2 Thess. 2:3 “the falling away” signifies apostasy from the faith. In papyri documents it is used politically of rebels.¶ Note: For “mighty fall,” Rev. 18:21, R.V., see Violence. B. Verbs. 1.    piptō (πίπτω , (4098)
 

 

[JohnD]

Just now, JohnD said:

apostasy (falling away) not departing:

1.    apostōsis (πτῶσις , (4431)), a fall (akin to B, No. 1), is used (a) literally, of the overthrow of a building, Matt. 7:27; (b) metaphorically, Luke 2:34, of the spiritual fall of those in Israel who would reject Christ; the word “again” in the A.V. of the next clause is misleading; the “rising up” (R.V.) refers to those who would acknowledge and receive Him, a distinct class from those to whom the “fall” applies. The fall would be irretrievable, cp. (a); such a lapse as Peter’s is not in view.¶

 W.E. Vine and F.F. Bruce, Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (Old Tappan NJ: Revell, 1981), 73.

646 ἀποστασία [apostasia /ap·os·tas·ee·ah/] n f. Feminine of the same as 647; TDNT 1:513; TDNTA 88; GK 686; Two occurrences; AV translates as “to forsake + 575” once, and “falling away” once. 1 a falling away, defection, apostasy.
ESL

), a defection, revolt, apostasy, is used in the N.T. of religious apostasy; in Acts 21:21, it is translated “to forsake,” lit., ‘thou teachest apostasy from Moses.’ In 2 Thess. 2:3 “the falling away” signifies apostasy from the faith. In papyri documents it is used politically of rebels.¶ Note: For “mighty fall,” Rev. 18:21, R.V., see Violence. B. Verbs. 1.    piptō (πίπτω , (4098)
 

 

There will be a falling away of people who claim to be believers in Jesus Christ but who renounce him

when the imposter convinces the world through lying signs and wonders that he is the actual Christ.

This will happen first and when is the man of lawlessness son of perdition revealed? When he sits in the Temple of God claiming to be God.

The very next verse. (2 Thessalonians 2:4).

Then will come the gathering:

1997 ἐπισυναγωγή [episunagoge /ep·ee·soon·ag·o·gay/] n f. From 1996; TDNT 7:841; TDNTA 1107; GK 2191; Two occurrences; AV translates as “gathering together” once, and “assembling together” once. 1 a gathering together in one place. 2 the (religious) assembly (of Christians).
ESL

), a gathering together, is used in 2 Thess. 2:1, of the ‘rapture’ of the saints; for Heb. 10:25, see Assemble. Note: For logia, 1 Cor. 16:2, A.V., see Collection. For gay see goodly, A, Note. For gaze see behold, No. 3. gazingstock theatrizō (θεατρίζω , (2301)
 

[JohnD]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

It is found in the context of the first seal: chapters 4 & 5 prove that Jesus began opening the seals as soon as He ascended - around 32 AD.

Please print the scriptures and expound on them as you see it / it reads.

Thanks.

[iamlamad]

21 minutes ago, JohnD said:

Please print the scriptures and expound on them as you see it / it reads.

Thanks.

John saw this vision, according to church tradition around 95 AD. I see no reason to question that date. Jesus had long since ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down....some 60 year previous.

Yet, when John was called up to heaven, and saw the throne room, Jesus was NOT SEEN at the right hand of the Father where Stephen saw Him,  and where over a dozen verses tell us that is where He should have been in 95 AD.

Then we notice the Holy Spirit was there in the throne room in chapter 4, as the 7 spirits of God.

Then as we begin chapter 5, we see a search for one worthy to take the book, and that first search John watched ended in failure - John wrote, "no man was found."

All this is very strange, if John was seeing the throne room in 95 AD.  Nothing is as it should be at that time.

As we continue to read, suddenly something changed! In fact, TIME changed. Time continued from that first search and another was made. Many more that one. But then a search was made and suddenly someone WAS found. What changed? Only time.  If we read ahead, we find it was Jesus that was found worthy. So we have to ask, why was He not found worthy in that first search? Again, the answer is TIME.

\Then suddenly someone new appeared in the throne room: Jesus has just ascended and suddenly appeared. And John wrote that the Holy Spirit was sent down. All this is giving us TIMING information.  John was not seeing the throne room of 95 AD - He was seeing a vision of the throne room of the past. Jesus was not seen at the right hand of the Father, because HE WAS NOT IN HEAVEN. He was on earth or under the earth. 
"No man was found worthy" shows us the timing is BEFORE Christ rose from the dead.  He WAS found worthy soon after He rose from the dead. 

The Holy Spirit was there in chapter 4, but sent down in chapter 5. All this shows us TIMING. WHEN was the Holy Spirit sent down? As soon as Jesus ascended. The TIME? Around 32 AD. As soon as Jesus ascended, He got to book and began opening seals.

I suspect you Know these scriptures, so no need to print them. 

 

I was not smart enough to get this on my own. I had help. One day God spoke to me:

“Son, I will ask you three questions. Until you can answer them correctly you will never understand this part of John’s vision.”

 Question 1

.“At the time John saw this vision, I had been back in heaven for years.

There are many verses showing that I went to be at the right hand of the Father.

The first question then, Why did John not immediately see Me at the right hand of the Father in chapter 4?”

Question 2

“John watched a search to find one worthy to break the seals, end in failure, and that is the very reason John wept much: no man was found worthy. However, if you read ahead, you find that I was found worthy to break the seals. Why then was I not found in that first search?”

 Question 3

“If you notice in chapter 4, the Holy Spirit was still in the throne room. I told the disciples that as soon as I ascended, I would send Him down. Why was the Holy Spirit still in the throne room in chapter 4?”

 You can believe this and learn, or you can deny it. I know it happened. I could not answer any of these questions so He took me to chapter 12 to find the answer!

Edited March 27, 2019 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

31 minutes ago, JohnD said:

apostasy (falling away) not departing:

1.    apostōsis (πτῶσις , (4431)), a fall (akin to B, No. 1), is used (a) literally, of the overthrow of a building, Matt. 7:27; (b) metaphorically, Luke 2:34, of the spiritual fall of those in Israel who would reject Christ; the word “again” in the A.V. of the next clause is misleading; the “rising up” (R.V.) refers to those who would acknowledge and receive Him, a distinct class from those to whom the “fall” applies. The fall would be irretrievable, cp. (a); such a lapse as Peter’s is not in view.¶

 W.E. Vine and F.F. Bruce, Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (Old Tappan NJ: Revell, 1981), 73.

646 ἀποστασία [apostasia /ap·os·tas·ee·ah/] n f. Feminine of the same as 647; TDNT 1:513; TDNTA 88; GK 686; Two occurrences; AV translates as “to forsake + 575” once, and “falling away” once. 1 a falling away, defection, apostasy.
ESL

), a defection, revolt, apostasy, is used in the N.T. of religious apostasy; in Acts 21:21, it is translated “to forsake,” lit., ‘thou teachest apostasy from Moses.’ In 2 Thess. 2:3 “the falling away” signifies apostasy from the faith. In papyri documents it is used politically of rebels.¶ Note: For “mighty fall,” Rev. 18:21, R.V., see Violence. B. Verbs. 1.    piptō (πίπτω , (4098)

You can disagree till the cows come home, but SEVERAL of the first translations into English used the word Departing.  Perhaps you should dig a little deeper. I am talking about men who translated the entire bible! These men KNEW Greek.

The question is, CAN this word mean something else?  It is a compound word - "apo" and "stasia."

Here is what STrong's says about "apo:

of separation

of local separation, 

after verbs of motion from a place i.e. of departing, of fleeing,...

of separation of a part from the whole

where of a whole some part is taken

of any kind of separation of one thing from another by which the union or fellowship of the two is destroyed

of a state of separation, that is of distance

physical, of distance of place

At the rapture, will some part of the entire population be taken? You know the answer is YES.

Will those taken be separated by DISTANCE? Again the answer is YES. 

The other part of the compound word 'stasia" is where we get "stationary" or "not moving" from.

Putting these two words together then can certainly mean a part of a whole group suddenly moved from where they were to a new location, and it happen so fast, the rest of the whole group seems stationary - not moving.

Edited March 27, 2019 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, The Light said:

What are you talking about? Revelation is obviously not in order. See the end of chapter 11 or the end of chapter 14 for proof.

  Quote

I guess you can't tell the difference between an invisible moon and a blood moon. Just to help you out, one is a SEEN moon, the other cannot be seen - it is invisible. With no light reflecting on the moon, it is simply not seen at all - invisible. Did you not notice that the stars put out no light either? God is talking about TOTAL DARKNESS. Therefore, OF COURSE the two signs are different. 

The signs of His coming in Rev 6 are the same sighs of His coming in Matt 24.

  Quote

What you deny is another proof: the sign at the 6th seal will be seen over 7 years before the sign in Matthew 24. One is BEFORE the 70th week, and one is AFTER. 

You are really confused with the seals. They are not opened yet.

  Quote

This should be obvious: one is in chapter 6 and is a seal preventing a book from being opened, and the other is after the book has been opened and the contents came to pass.

How can the seal in chapter six prevent the book from being opened? The seals are opened one at a time, in order.

  Quote

the twelve tribes that are scattered across the earth are raptured prewrath.   WOW! Imagination running wild! That is, unless you can back this up by scripture rightly divided and understood correctly.

Certainly I can back it up with scripture. The 144,000 first fruits of the 12 tribes guarantees a harvest. But I think that will be way over your head.

  Quote

Only those that flee,when the abomination of desolation is set up, will go through the wrath of God.   Right - they will have supernatural protection. 

?

  Quote

I disagree with most of your post. However, if you feel a need for rearranging, be my guest. Just know your theory will be proven wrong.

I would love to hear where you think the signs of the sun, moon are stars are in Revelation. I think it's chapter 6 where it talks about the signs of the sun, moon and stars. What chapter do you think those sign are in?

What are YOU talking about? What is wrong with the end of ANY chapter, much less chapter 11.

If seals are sealing a book, then ALL seals must be opened before the book can be opened. Seal 6 is no exception. 

"Firstfruits" hints strongly there will be a second, third, etc.  

OF COURSE there are the cosmic signs at the 6th seal. John wrote them. They are the same signs as Joel 2. But the signs in Matthew 24 are the same as in Joel 3, and NOT the same as in Joel 2. John shows us BOTH signs, and shows us TIME between them. 

Sorry, my friend, but no confusion with me. Just know, if your theories require you to rearrange, your theories will be proven wrong. 

Edited March 27, 2019 by iamlamad