Mid Trib rapture anyone?

[Revelation Man]

On 5/29/2019 at 11:33 PM, OldCoot said:

Then who was it who showed up at Mamre and had ate a meal with Abraham?   And who was it that encountered Joshua and claimed to be commander of the army of the Lord and told Joshua to take off his sandals for he stood on holy ground?   Only Yeshua in both instances.

So while it is true that the Holy Spirit placed Yeshua in the womb of Mary, Yeshua had already shown up several times prior to that as a physical man who talked and ate with men.  And He was acknowledged by men that He was the Lord.  And even contrary to any Vegans who might be in the group, He ate calf and milk.  Just had to put that little nugget in there!  

Here's Jesus right here.....................IN RED !!

Daniel 12:5 Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river. 6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?

7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

On 5/29/2019 at 11:44 PM, iamlamad said:

If we read Daniel 9:27, what ever stops the daily sacrifices will divide the week into two halves. Add in what Paul said: the man of sin will enter the most holy place in the temple and declare he is God. That event will stop the daily sacrifices: the temple will have to be cleansed. So putting these verses together we see that the abomination even will divide the week.

CLOSE....The AoD happens 30 days before the Middle of the week, Daniel 12 clearly tells us it is called the 1290, so it can't be the exact middle of the week. It is the False Prophet who places the IMAGE of the Beast {Rev. 13} into the Temple.

On 5/29/2019 at 11:44 PM, iamlamad said:

Where do we see this fleeing? It is in chapter 12:6. This is a long ways AFTER seals 1-5. 

 

I assume you are speaking about Revelation 12......this again proves you do not quite get the Chronology of the book of Revelation. The Rev. 12 chapter is a "PARENTHETICAL CHAPTER" do you get that ? In other words its not a real time event. It starts at the 1st Seal in Revelation chapter six as does chapters 13, 17 and 18. You thinking Rev. 12 is way after Rev. 6 is just one of many wrong tracks you go down brother. 

On 5/29/2019 at 11:44 PM, iamlamad said:

Where is Jesus coming in Revelation that matches His coming in Matthew 24? of course it is in chapter 19. So all those events before chapter 19 must be days of tribulation. Did you notice in chapter 13 what CAUSES the days of great tribulation? Did you read about the image and the Beast forcing people to worship this image or lose their head? Did you read in chapter 13 about the mark, and people would lose their head if they refuse the mark? Did you notice that God's warning about the mark is not until chapter 14, PROVING that the mark is not created until chapter 14? This is a LONG ways from seals 1-5. 

You got most of this right until you lot your "TIMING" again, the Mark of the Beast comes with the Anti-Christ in Rev. 6 as per the timing. Hes not going to wait to start implimenting his evil ways. 

On 5/29/2019 at 11:44 PM, iamlamad said:

My point is, in Revelation, "the trib" or the 70th week goes from chapter 8 to chapter 16.

It goes from Rev. 6, 7, 8, 9 AND 15/16......THE OTHER CHAPTERS all happen during these 5 chapters.....I see 15 and 16 as one basically. 

 

On 5/29/2019 at 11:45 PM, iamlamad said:

It also fits the redeemed of the Old Testament. Your argument fails.

They are raised at the VERY END.....Sorry, scriptures say different.

 

[The Light]

4 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Quote

No sir, he thinks the Seals were opened in 32 AD...........

Yeah, total pipe dream.

 

Quote

Matthew 24 doesn't correlate with Rev. cha. six, it doesn't match up like some people think, Matt. 24 is not a part of the 70th week/tribulation until vs. 15 on, the other verses are about the Church Age

 

I know you are a smart man, Revelation Man, but Rev 6 is just John retelling us what Jesus told us in Matthew 24.  This is the opening of the 1st 5 seals.

Matt 24

⁴ And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

⁵ For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

⁶ And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

⁷ For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

⁸ All these are the beginning of sorrows.

⁹ Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

¹⁰ And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

¹¹ And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

¹² And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

¹³ But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

¹⁴ And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Rev 6

6 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

² And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

³ And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.

⁴ And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

⁵ And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.

⁶ And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

⁷ And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.

⁸ And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

⁹ And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

¹⁰ And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

¹¹ And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

 

Quote

. Its easy to get that understanding, but an in depth exegesis of Matt. 24 shows otherwise. I see many people make this mistake, eve well now preachers/teachers. 

It's not a mistake, and I have seen few that understand.

It's not a mistake, and I have seen few that understand.

Quote

The verse you cited about Jesus' return is the Second Coming with the Church {us} who are gathered from one end of Heaven to the other. Its not the Rapture. That happens before verse 15.

You are correct, somewhat. You said that the coming in Matthew is not THE RAPTURE  That is correct. The Coming of Jesus in Matt 24 is A RAPTURE. We already see the Church in heaven in Rev 5, so we know that it is not the church being raptured. But it is a rapture, and a big one. Study Matthew 24. DO YOU SEE ANYTHING THAT TELLS YOU THIS COMING OF JESUS HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH HIM COMING TO EARTH AND SETTING UP HIS KINGDOM?

Matthew 24

²⁷ For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

²⁸ For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

²⁹ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

³⁰ And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

³¹ And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

³² Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

³³ So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

³⁴ Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

³⁵ Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

³⁶ But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

³⁷ But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

³⁸ For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

³⁹ And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

⁴⁰ Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

⁴¹ Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

⁴² Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Mark 13

²⁷ And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Edited May 31, 2019 by The Light

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Here's Jesus right here.....................IN RED !!

Daniel 12:5 Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river. 6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?

7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

CLOSE....The AoD happens 30 days before the Middle of the week, Daniel 12 clearly tells us it is called the 1290, so it can't be the exact middle of the week. It is the False Prophet who places the IMAGE of the Beast {Rev. 13} into the Temple.

I assume you are speaking about Revelation 12......this again proves you do not quite get the Chronology of the book of Revelation. The Rev. 12 chapter is a "PARENTHETICAL CHAPTER" do you get that ? In other words its not a real time event. It starts at the 1st Seal in Revelation chapter six as does chapters 13, 17 and 18. You thinking Rev. 12 is way after Rev. 6 is just one of many wrong tracks you go down brother. 

You got most of this right until you lot your "TIMING" again, the Mark of the Beast comes with the Anti-Christ in Rev. 6 as per the timing. Hes not going to wait to start implimenting his evil ways. 

It goes from Rev. 6, 7, 8, 9 AND 15/16......THE OTHER CHAPTERS all happen during these 5 chapters.....I see 15 and 16 as one basically. 

 

They are raised at the VERY END.....Sorry, scriptures say different.

You and I will always disagree because I follow the written word  - word for word. You seem to follow human reasoning ABOUT the written Word. Case in point: Daniel tells us the event that will stop the daily sacrifices will divide the week into two halves.  Revelation tells us the halves are 1260 days each. In other words, God knows how to divide in half. Imagine that!  You you wish to add human reasoning and insist that Daniel was wrong: 30 days off.  It WILL BE the abomination that ends the daily sacrifices. When the man of sin enters the most holy place in the temple, that event will be the abomination,  the event that divides the week into two halves, and the event that stops the daily sacrifices.  It is scripture: that event will divide the week into two equal 1260 day halves. 

When John tells us 5 different times that the countdown to the end of the week will be 1260 days, 42 months, or 3.5 years, just common sense tells us that 1290 is an added 30 days AFTER the end of the week. Yet, you want to put a human reasoning spin on it, and work backwards. I guess you just don't know that the week ends in chapter 16 with the 7th vial, yet Jesus does not return until chapter 19, perhaps 30 days later.  Daniel 12 tells us the WEEK will end 3.5 years after the midpoint. It also tells us of ANOTHER event that will happen 30 days later. 

I am beginning to understand why I seldom agree with you: you seem to think you can rearrange Revelation to fit your theory. I created a theory that fits Revelation AS WRITTEN.  I have no need to rearrange or declare chapter after chapter as parenthetical. 

There ARE some parentheses in Revelation. It is plain you do know where exactly, so you cover whole chapters and claim they are parenthetical.

Here is a bombshell to your theory: There ARE parenthesis, but John was SO CAREFUL with His chronology, even the parentheses are in their proper place in the book. You cannot rearrange ANYTHING. The truth is, Rev. chapter 12 IS way after chapter 6. The truth is, Revelation 12 is a midpoint chapter. Chapter 6 is before the week even begins. 

Hmmm. You have the pre-incarnate Jesus raising His hands and swearing to himself (Since HE is God) that the last half of the week would be 3.5 years.  No, it makes much more sense that it is a ANGEL raising his hands towards heaven and swearing to GOD (the one that lives forever).

You assumed right: I was speaking of Rev. 12:6 where those in Judea begin their flight. WHY? Because they had just seen the abomination. They are following Jesus' words exactly. That proves the abomination is in chapter 11. The midpoint intermission (as you call a parenthesis) begins with chapter 10. We perhaps agree on that point. As you said, a parenthesis has no bearing on chronology. That is why I called this an intermission rather than a parenthesis. The first verses of chapter 11 DO fit in chronology. Verses 14 & 15 - getting the 7th trumpet sounded  - is a REALTIME event. If you wish then to have another parenthesis after verse 15....go ahead, but those events still fit in chronology 

John breaks from his real-time in the trumpets between the 6th and 7th  - exactly as he did in the seals. Why? in chapter 10 and 11:1-3, he is re-arranging the setting so everything is ready for the 7th trumpet that marks the midpoint. The man of sin MUST arrive in Jerusalem before He can enter the temple in Jerusalem. Verse 11:1 is the man of sin arriving. Verse 11:15 is the 7th trumpet that marks in heaven the very moment the man of sin enters the temple on earth. The 7th trumpet is the high point, so to speak, of the entire book. It is when God gets His planet back!  So chapter 10 is intermission, but the events in chapter 11:1-3 are not. They are written, IN chronological order and are very much a part of John's chronology.   They are events that will happen just before the man of sin enters the temple.  First the man of sin moves to Jerusalem with His Gentile armies: 11:1-2. Next, the Two Witnesses show up - 11:3 - because the man of sin showed up.  Verses 11:4 through 11:13 are a parenthesis.  The truth is, it is you who does not have John's Chronology down.  How on earth could the man of sin enter the temple in Jerusalem if He is in Damascus, for example? He must first ARRIVE in Jerusalem. 11:1-2 shows us his arrival with Gentile armies.

the Mark of the Beast comes with the Anti-Christ in Rev. 6 as per the timing  You are MILES OFF from the truth! Chapter 6 is for the most part CHURCH AGE. As I have said before, get chapters 4 & 5 wrong, and the theories on the rest of the book will be wrong. You need to start over. John does not even talk about the mark until late in chapter 13. Believe it or not, like it or not, the truth is, chapter 13 in TIME is over 3.5 years after Seal 6. Chapter 13 is right after the man of sin has been revealed (entered the temple and declared he is God). Next, God gives the warning of the mark in chapter 14, so in truth, the mark will not be created and enforced until AFTER God warns in chapter 14. Just so you know, "his ways" get implemented AFTER he is revealed in chapter 11, and after he rises up from the sea in chapter 13, and after God warns in chapter 14. THEN and only then, will he begin to enforce the image and the mark. 

It goes from Rev. 6, 7, 8, 9 AND 15/16......THE OTHER CHAPTERS all happen during these 5 chapters.....I see 15 and 16 as one basically.   This is MYTH gone to seed. Miles and miles from the truth. 

Here is a brief list following John's chronology. I show it, not for Revelation Man but for the readers.

1st 5 seals: history to us now

NOW while martyrs are still being added to those at the 5th seal

Rapture then 6th seal - great earthquake - - cosmic signs

Intermission: between 6th and 7th seal:
     sealing of 144,000
     Church seen in heaven, after the rapture:

     these two events MUST happen (God rearranging the setting for the next act: the 70th week starting with the 7th seal. 

7th seal: the 70th week BEGINS with the 30 minutes of silence

First six trumpets, first 1260 days of 70th week

7th trumpet sounds: marks the exact midpoint of the week.
    Abomination takes place
    Remnant flees into wilderness    

    Satan is cast down from the heavens

    Satan goes first after woman, then after the remnant of the church

God warns people of taking the mark

Beast sets up image and mark (soon after abomination)

VIALS poured out:  After an indeterminate time, God starts pouring out the vials of His wrath, called plagues. They are designed to stop the beasts from their persecution, and "shorten" those days.

7th vial "marks" the end of the 70th week
total destruction of the world system as we know it.
Cities around the globe destroyed, as the world's worst earthquake takes place.
Earthquake? Probably when the old testament saints are resurrected!

Wedding in heaven. 

Jesus and church get on white horses!
As Jesus splits the sky, as lightning shining from east to west, He sends out His angels:

Parable of the tares
Parable of the dragnet
one taken and one left: taken straight to hell!

Then "elect" are gathered by angels: Israel from all over heaven and earth gathered and taken to Israel!

Battle of Armageddon

Jesus sets up His throne

Judgement of the nations

Start of Millennial Reign

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

He went to Abraham's bosom, its hades/grave or the holding placing for the faithful Jewish Sants Spirits.

Jesu told the Pharisees he was "I am that I am" and knew Abraham their father. Paul stated that Jesus led them through the desert, he was that "ROCK". 

You think the Seals have been opened....I don't see that as worthy of discussion to be honest. But I have to point out to others the truth, I am called to preach the truth and that is what I will do, despite your protestasion. 

You have it backwards: telling the truth is what I do!  ;-)

There are many discussions (arguments?) over whether Jesus went to the fire side of Hades before he went to the paradise side. I don't enter into these discussions: He told the thief on the cross that he, the thief would be with Jesus in Paradise. I believe Jesus.  

You and I will continue to disagree. 

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

That's my view also. In addition, twenty-four is the biblical number for the 'Priesthood'. Some believe as I do twenty-four is a representation of 12 + 12, the twelve tribes of Israel and the twelve Apostles (as in the New Jerusalem '12 gates' and twelve 'foundations'. A representation and inclusion of all in that dispensation or age.

As you mentioned, the church is mentioned 19 times in Revelation Chapters 1-3, and no mention of the church is made until the end of the Book. Christians which constitute the church, are not appointed the wrath of God, which is part of the reason for the tribulation. The Rapture (harpazo - snatching away) closely mirrors the traditional Jewish betrothal / wedding traditions. It makes no sense Christ would beat up His bride before the marriage. 

The Restrainer (Holy Spirit) which indwells each believer is before the Throne of God and no longer on earth. That also implies a 'catching away'. It's the age old pre, mid, end, Rapture debate. I don't believe it will be long before that age old debate is settled. Everyday that it is cloudy I wonder if today is the day 

Close, but no cigar. God's wrath begins at the 6th seal. The 5th seal are the martyrs of the church age, and people are being added daily. Therefore the church has been waiting between the 5th and 6th seal since the beginning. The 6th seal STARTS the judgment those martyrs were crying for, so the rapture MUST come before the 6th seal begins the wrath...and of course it WILL come. I am convinced that the earthquake at the 6th seal is Paul's "sudden destruction."  Some people who have had dreams or visions of the rapture tell that an earthquake was beginning to shake the earth as they were caught up.

Imagining that the church is gone because John does not mention the church is poor exegesis. The truth is, the 5th seal martyrs PROVE the church is still here at the 5th seal. But the 6th seal events prove that is still future. 

Go back and study chapters 4 & 5. You will find they show TIMING and the movement of time: WHAT TIME? Notice in chapter 5 the very moment Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down. There is your timing of the first seal. 

the Holy Spirit was certainly available to the prophet, priest and king during the Old testament. For SURE His ability to work through the church will be gone when the church is removed to heaven.  I suspect it will then be just as it was during the Old Covenant. The two witnesses will SURELY be anointed with the Holy Spirit.

I'm with you: it could be ANY DAY.  There is a rapture gauge somewhere on the net. I suspect the needle of that gauge will shoot up just before the feast of trumpets this year.

[iamlamad]

8 hours ago, OldCoot said:

While it is possible that those "first fruits" resurrected saints might be part of the 24 elders, it likely is not the case. Those resurrected saints of Matthew 27 that are comprised of the first fruits resurrection you are talking about were never considered  a "royal priesthood" in 1 Peter 2:9 that Peter calls the redeemed that make up the ekklesia that started at Shavuot 50 days after Yeshua's resurrection.   Royal Priesthood by definition is "kings" and "priests" that the 24 elders claim.  

Since there is evidence outside of Revelation that these elders specifically comprise the redeemed of the NT church age, there would have to also be support in scripture outside of Revelation to suggest the OT saints also get lumped into that group and comprise the 24 elders.

Also internally, those that become believers and are killed show up later in Revelation.  They are saints also, but there is no indication they then become part of the 24 elders. so while all are redeemed in the same way, not all are of the same group.

Also internally, the church is mentioned all thru the first 3 chapters of the book, then never mentioned again until the final salutation by John. it seems a little strange with all the things going on during that time, if the church was still on earth, it is never mentioned.  From the OT, Isaiah, King David, and others all support the idea that before the Day of the Lord begins, the righteous (both dead and living) are removed and are with the Lord.  

The church will only be here until the last martyr fulfills the promise at the 5th seal. That is in chapter 6, not chapter 4, but considering all the rest of the book, it is still early in the book. Next, the 70th week is for DANIEL'S people, not the church, so Jesus and John had no reason to mention the church during those chapters. Again it is VERY poor exegesis to make Rev. 4:1 - John caught up - to be the rapture of the church. Such sloppy exegesis has opened to door to prewrath and posttrib to flourish! They KNOW it is poor exegesis

[The Light]

7 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

 

Matthew 24 doesn't correlate with Rev. cha. six,

 

Revelation Man'

God tells us about the cosmic signs in Rev 6 and Matthew 24. Have you ever tried putting things where God tells us to put them. You are a smart man, and yet your logic does not allow you to put things where God says they go. You look at things and say, these events in Matt 24 and Rev 6 cannot be the same events BECAUSE Matthew 24 is the second coming when Jesus comes with His saints to punish the wicked and set up his kingdom on earth. Is there anything in the verses of Matthew 24 that says He is coming to put His foot on the earth? Matt 24 says that Jesus sends His angels to gather the elect from the earth and from heaven (the church is gathered from heaven, as we see they are in heaven in Rev 5) We can also see there is a rapture event in Matt 24. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left etc.

These cosmic events are the same. Then we see a coming of Jesus in Matt 24 and a coming in Rev 6 and it is confirmed by the multitude in Rev 7

Matt 24

²⁹ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

³⁰ And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

³¹ And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Rev 6

¹² And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

¹³ And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

¹⁴ And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

¹⁵ And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

¹⁶ And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

¹⁷ For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Change the way you are thinking about the timeline. You shouldn't take the cosmic events in Matt 24 and Rev 6 and figure out why they can't be the same event. They are the same event. You need to figure out "SINCE THEY ARE THE SAME EVENT" where else am I wrong.

 

Edited May 31, 2019 by The Light

[OldCoot]

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

You and I will always disagree because I follow the written word  - word for word. You seem to follow human reasoning ABOUT the written Word.

Oh that is beautiful.  Anyone who disagrees with you is not following the word, as if you must be right because you are following the word.   Classic circular reasoning at its finest.  Which is exhibiting human reasoning.   And a clever argument style used by political operatives and televangelists to denigrate and sideline their opposition.  You have made this claim at least a dozen times at least in previous posts.  Be careful.  

[iamlamad]

41 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

Oh that is beautiful.  Anyone who disagrees with you is not following the word, as if you must be right because you are following the word.   Classic circular reasoning at its finest.  Which is exhibiting human reasoning.   And a clever argument style used by political operatives and televangelists to denigrate and sideline their opposition.  You have made this claim at least a dozen times at least in previous posts.  Be careful.  

Not anyone. You usually don't have wild human imaginations about scripture like others on these threads. Many times your theory is just what I think the scriptures are saying - but not always.

Tells us the truth: Did John see Jesus at the right hand of the Father? You know He did not.

 I go by what is written.  I say he did not. Some wish to imagine Jesus was there but not seen. Somehow my imaginer cannot imagine the second person of the trinity being there but not being seen. That is why I think the Author's intent is that He was NOT THERE. 

You still have not told us WHY God would show us a search for one worthy that ended in failure, before showing us a search that found Jesus worthy. You have come up with no reason why God would show John the throne room with Jesus absent.  You have come up with no reason why God would show Jesus suddenly appearing in the throne room and John mentioning  the Holy Spirit being sent down in the same verse. This was 95 AD. Why would God bother? You have come up with no reason. You just seem not to believe my stated reason. You KNOW my reason: God was showing us the timing of the first seal. He started back in time when the book was still in the hand of the Father. The book is KEY to understanding much of Revelation. In fact, understanding chapters 4 & 5 are VERY key to understanding the rest of the book. If God meant the first seal to be the church, and someone pulls it out of context an imagines it is the Antichrist Beast, then they are 2000 years off.

If you catch me writing something that does NOT follow the word, pin me down on it. I want to be right as much as anyone else here.  There is still MUCH I don't know about Revelation. 

By the way, I wish to ask a simple question: IS it remotely possible in your mind that my take on chapters 4 & 5 are exactly what the intent of the Author was when He had John write? Or  would you say it is simply impossible? 

If impossible, show us the verses that simply make it impossible.

 

 

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, The Light said:

Revelation Man'

God tells us about the cosmic signs in Rev 6 and Matthew 24. Have you ever tried putting things where God tells us to put them. You are a smart man, and yet your logic does not allow you to put things where God says they go. You look at things and say, these events in Matt 24 and Rev 6 cannot be the same events BECAUSE Matthew 24 is the second coming when Jesus comes with His saints to punish the wicked and set up his kingdom on earth. Is there anything in the verses of Matthew 24 that says He is coming to put His foot on the earth? Matt 24 says that Jesus sends His angels to gather the elect from the earth and from heaven (the church is gathered from heaven, as we see they are in heaven in Rev 5) We can also see there is a rapture event in Matt 24. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left etc.

These cosmic events are the same. Then we see a coming of Jesus in Matt 24 and a coming in Rev 6 and it is confirmed by the multitude in Rev 7

Matt 24

²⁹ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

³⁰ And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

³¹ And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Rev 6

¹² And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

¹³ And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

¹⁴ And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

¹⁵ And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

¹⁶ And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

¹⁷ For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Change the way you are thinking about the timeline. You shouldn't take the cosmic events in Matt 24 and Rev 6 and figure out why they can't be the same event. They are the same event. You need to figure out "SINCE THEY ARE THE SAME EVENT" where else am I wrong.

 

Sorry, my friend but this time Revelation man is right: they are NOT the same. In one the moon is blood red, meaning it is a SEEN moon. On Matthew 24 neither the sun or moon is giving light - not even the stars. This is talking about TOTAL DARKNESS. AT least one prewrather got this part right: the biggest sign of Christ's coming as shown in Rev. 19 is He will come when it is totally dark - not just at night, but in the day.

if you would care to study, Joel 2 shows the blood moon sign in chapter 2, and then the total darkness sign in chapter 3, that fits with Matthew 24.

Of course there is the time difference: it is very real: the 6th seal is before the start of Day of the Lord, while Matthew 24 after the trib of those days is 7 plus years AFTER the start of the Day of the Lord.