Mid Trib rapture anyone?

[Revelation Man]

16 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi RM,

It's NOT 200 million Chinamen?......... But I thought.........O com'on..............

Ya, I totally agree.....it's not. But....IT COULD BE. China can now field an army of 200 million. But there is a problem putting them all on horses.

I did a search a while back on the number of horses in the world. If you take all the horses....the race horses, trail horses, work horses, foals, show horses, old horses, pony's...etc.....all the horses in the world don't even add up to anywhere close to even 100 million, I think somewhere around 70 million max. And they are scattered all over the world.

I believe it's a spiritual army. You say Angelic??????....well maybe. Perhaps demonic????

I'm not sure. I need to look into it some more. 

 

The Demonic Army was the first Woe....this is a 2nd Woe, if it was Demonic why have a 2nd Seal ? And the Iron Breastplates represents the Romans like I stated. Those mentioned in the 2nd Woe had a different Breastplate on...AS MY BLOG described it 2 years ago or was it 3 years ? ANYWAY....HERE GOES.

 The breastplates of fiery red, hyacinth blue and sulfur yellow of the horsemen equate to the breastplate worn by the high priest. Exodus 28:15 You shall make the breastplate of judgment. Artistically woven according to the workmanship of the ephod you shall make it: of gold, blue, purple, and scarlet thread, and fine wove, linen, you shall make it.

Only in this case all 200 million are being presented as high priests or instruments of JUDGMENT. 

The #1 thing that got me looking at this was these 2 verses below.....

Rev. 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

I was like, these are not Chinese, these are Angelic beings killing those who have the Mark of the Beast and who REFUSED to Repent. I know why people do this, they combine this 2nd Woe with the {6th Trumpet} with the 6th Vial and they combine them and say its 200 Million Kings from the East. I think the Kings of the East are right where its described, the Euphrates River. Iran {Persia} and Iraq {Babylon} and I think its more symbolic than them being and End Time Power.....Its about the FOUR BEASTS.....The E.U. incorporates both Rome and the E.U. and the we get the mention of the Kings of the East and ALL the Kings of the Whole World.....which is why I say Babylon means the Whole World, in Rev. 16:19 God sees all the People He defeats as Babylon, thus its the E.U., Kings of the East and ALL the Kings of the whole world.

Anyway, the 200 Million not being Humans is how I came to understand that they are not aligned with the Kings of the East per se, so that let me see them for who they actually are, Angels. 

 

[Revelation Man]

On 5/31/2019 at 4:13 PM, The Light said:

Revelation Man'

God tells us about the cosmic signs in Rev 6 and Matthew 24. Have you ever tried putting things where God tells us to put them. You are a smart man, and yet your logic does not allow you to put things where God says they go. You look at things and say, these events in Matt 24 and Rev 6 cannot be the same events BECAUSE Matthew 24 is the second coming when Jesus comes with His saints to punish the wicked and set up his kingdom on earth. Is there anything in the verses of Matthew 24 that says He is coming to put His foot on the earth? Matt 24 says that Jesus sends His angels to gather the elect from the earth and from heaven (the church is gathered from heaven, as we see they are in heaven in Rev 5) We can also see there is a rapture event in Matt 24. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left etc.

These cosmic events are the same. Then we see a coming of Jesus in Matt 24 and a coming in Rev 6 and it is confirmed by the multitude in Rev 7

Matt 24

²⁹ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

³⁰ And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

³¹ And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Rev 6

¹² And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

¹³ And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

¹⁴ And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

¹⁵ And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

¹⁶ And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

¹⁷ For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Change the way you are thinking about the timeline. You shouldn't take the cosmic events in Matt 24 and Rev 6 and figure out why they can't be the same event. They are the same event. You need to figure out "SINCE THEY ARE THE SAME EVENT" where else am I wrong.

 

What I mean about Matt. 24 is verses 1-14 not being apart of the 70th week Tribulation, I should say verses 4-14, we know verses 1-3 is Jesus and the Disciples conversing. It should be OBVIOUS that verses 15-31 is about the Tribulation. So when I say Matt. 24, I am talking specifically about the part where I think many people get it wrong, not verses 15-31, that is obvious, of course, thus that parts obviously matches Rev. 6 and the moon/sun turning DARK, but the SORROWS has nothing to do with Rev. 6. { I wasn't clear here, I just assumed we all knew verses 15-31 was the Tribulation because Jesus mentions the Abomination of Desolation, and the Greatest ever troubles, and the False Prophet and Anti-Christ. Then the 2nd Coming.

The Rapture is verses 36-51. The untimely figs being cast down is Satan being cast out of Heaven IMHO. The Figs being spoken of in Matt. 24 has a different meaning. Its just showing how to tell the signs of the times. In other words when you see ALL THESE SIGNS, know that I am near....well which of the Jews are the ONLY ONES who can see ALL of these signs ? The ones living during the Tribulation period, who will see the Sun and moon signs. This is a Message for the Jews as per the signs. 

Edited June 2, 2019 by Revelation Man

[iamlamad]

8 hours ago, OldCoot said:

Not always.  When one takes one point and builds a position around it and neglects the other evidences is not sound exegesis. Your main focus and support for you argument is a negative..... John didn't see Yeshua at first so He couldn't be there, so the what John was actually viewing was a 50 day window of time in 32AD.   That is taking things to extremes.  Hyper literal.

But the internal evidence alone doesn't support that idea.  

You are mistaken; yes, I do say that John did not see Jesus, but that is just one part of the entire story of chapters 4 & 5. We need to back away from trees and see the forest. We need to see the message of these entire two chapters. 

I think you are trying to take it TOO literally! It was a vision! God can do anything in a vision. 50 days can happen between two verses. 

Remember, I did not know ANYTHING when Jesus asked me those questions. I could not see timing; I could not see the movement of time; I could not answer why He was not seen at the right hand of the Father, when there is verse after verse telling us that is where He should have been; I could not answer why "no man was found" in that search, or why the Holy Spirit was there instead of sent down. I can easily understand why you are having difficulty! Unless Jesus had come to my rescue, I will STILL be trying to answer His questions. 

It is really not an issue of salvation, so don't get agitated that we don't agree. However, if you miss the truth here, it will throw off the rest of your theories on Revelation. As long as you stay expecting His coming, even that is not a salvation issue.  These two chapters was really God introducing John to the BOOK with 7 seals.  God chose to back up in time and show John when Jesus got the book into His hands. That was as soon as He ascended. Of necessity then, God had to show John something that happened in 32 AD, in a vision seen around 95 AD.  It seems you don't like how God chose to do that. I guess you will have to take that up with Him! 

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

 

{{{ The Disciples asked Jesus THREE THINGS here, WHEN shall these things be, speaking about the Temple being destroyed first off, THEN what is the sign of your coming, AND what is the end of the World {or end of the age}. So when Jesus answers, the he tells about the EVENTS that lead up to the SIGN of his coming, but not many actually get it, it verse 14 that ends all the signs of his coming, and thus it ends the Church Age. The we get the Tribulation which ends with the End of the Age [of man]. Or the Second Coming of Christ with the Church to Conquer Satan. Verses 4-6 is about 70 AD, which is almost like unto the Second Coming Event shown in Zechariah 14, ad there is a reason for that. If the Jews had of accepted Christ there would have been no Church Age, Jesus would have saved Israel from thE Romans in 70 AD, but God knew they would reject him, that is why the Statue and the Four Beasts have a 2000 year SKIP i the prophecy, take out the Church Age and they all fit together perfectly like a seamless dress. }}}

RM, the bolded part is very good! You have done well. The church age came simply because Israel rejected their Messiah as a nation.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. 9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

{{{ This is describing the Church Age AND the Disciples coming DEATHS !! After 70 AD, Jesus starts describing the Church Age Troubles the Church will go through. He describes it as a Woman in BIRTH/Sorrows/Labor Pains. So we had 2000 years of Wars....more wars.....famines.....pestilences and earthquakes etc. etc. This is NOT the Great Tribulation of course, this BIRTHS the 70th week. That is why Jesus describes it as the SORROWS of a Woman in birth, the baby is not here, but the SIGNS are all around you, shes in LABOR !! But this is not nor can be about the 70th week Tribulation. Jesus tells the Disciples they will DELIVER YOU UP to be killed, this is SPECIFICALLY ABOUT HIS Disciples coming deaths. So this is the START of the Sorrows. }}}

RM, another good piece of work here. When Jesus said "the end is not yet" He is telling us He is not yet speaking of end times, but rather church age events. 

There IS a parallel in Revelation. The Red Horse and rider with the sword and Jesus saying there will be wars and rumors of wars. 

The Black Horse and rider bringing famine and Jesus saying there would be famines. 

The Paul Horse and rider bringing Death, and Jesus talking about pestilences 

Since these things are church age here, they are church age in Revelation. I wonder why you have not seen this?

[OldCoot]

52 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

I think you are trying to take it TOO literally! It was a vision! God can do anything in a vision.

Wrong.  It was the Revelation of Yeshua, given to Yeshua by the Father, who then gave it to an angel to give to John.  It was not some sort of vision, out of body experience, dope trip, or whatever.  Again, you are so caught up in the "John didn't see Yeshua" thing that you disregard what the text actually says.

Revelation 1:1 (NKJV) The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John,

I am taking the text literally, but only to the extent that it follows established principles of hermeneutics.  God didn't do anything He wanted regarding this Revelation as it was given to John.  It was already established in truth and chronology of the future and was revealed to Yeshua.  Yahweh is not capricious like Allah.

Edited June 2, 2019 by OldCoot

[iamlamad]

8 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

Wrong.  It was the Revelation of Yeshua, given to Yeshua by the Father, who then gave it to an angel to give to John.  It was not some sort of vision, out of body experience, dope trip, or whatever.  Again, you are so caught up in the "John didn't see Yeshua" thing that you disregard what the text actually says.

Revelation 1:1 (NKJV) The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John,

I am taking the text literally, but only to the extent that it follows established principles of hermeneutics.

Think about this for a while: Satan is the god of this present world. He has been so since Adam fell. God OF COURSE had a plan to dethone Satan and give the world back to Christ, the legal owner.  HOWEVER: it seems there was a legal contract between God and Satan,  A scroll (probably the earth lease document) with seven seals had to be opened and 7 trumpet judgments sounded before Satan could be dethroned. 

Please understand, this is one of the most important parts of the 70th week of Daniel. It is one of the most important parts of the book of Revelation. Think about it: if no man was ever qualified to take the book and open the seals, the book would never get opened, the trumpet judgments would never happen and Satan would remain the god of this planet on into eternity.

In other words, it was of the UTMOST importance that Jesus live without sin, be willing to suffer and die a horrible death, and they be able to conquer death and raise from the dead.  Why? To be qualified to take the book and begin opening the seals. It was that important!  It is why John wept: He KNEW how important it was. 

Now think about it: this was and is a LEGAL document of heaven. Everything about it had to be done legally. I have said that the first seal was the church with the gospel. That was God's plan from the beginning. But did you ever think: if no one had been found worthy to open that first seal, it would have been ILLEGAL for God to send out the church with the gospel. God's plans would have failed. It was THAT IMPORTANT that someone bef found worthy to open those seals! 

Then there is the part Satan probably demanded be included: if the church could legally be sent out, then Satan must legally be allowed to stop or try to stop the advance of the gospel: seals 2 through 4. Well, these seals HAD to get opened to get to seal 7 where Satan would be dethroned.

Since this was God's plan from the beginning, I want to ask you a monumental question: if you were God, and your son had just risen from the dead and qualified Himself to take the book and begin opening the seals - so the book could be opened so Satan could be dethroned: ....wait for it now...would YOU WAIT 2000 years before allowed or instruction or having your Son to begin opening the seals?  I think not!

No, it was SO IMPORTANT that as soon as Jesus ascended, He went straight to the Father, got the book, and began opening the seals. 

[OldCoot]

20 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Think about this for a while: Satan is the god of this present world. He has been so since Adam fell. God OF COURSE had a plan to dethone Satan and give the world back to Christ, the legal owner.  HOWEVER: it seems there was a legal contract between God and Satan,  A scroll (probably the earth lease document) with seven seals had to be opened and 7 trumpet judgments sounded before Satan could be dethroned. 

Please understand, this is one of the most important parts of the 70th week of Daniel. It is one of the most important parts of the book of Revelation. Think about it: if no man was ever qualified to take the book and open the seals, the book would never get opened, the trumpet judgments would never happen and Satan would remain the god of this planet on into eternity.

In other words, it was of the UTMOST importance that Jesus live without sin, be willing to suffer and die a horrible death, and they be able to conquer death and raise from the dead.  Why? To be qualified to take the book and begin opening the seals. It was that important!  It is why John wept: He KNEW how important it was. 

Now think about it: this was and is a LEGAL document of heaven. Everything about it had to be done legally. I have said that the first seal was the church with the gospel. That was God's plan from the beginning. But did you ever think: if no one had been found worthy to open that first seal, it would have been ILLEGAL for God to send out the church with the gospel. God's plans would have failed. It was THAT IMPORTANT that someone bef found worthy to open those seals! 

Then there is the part Satan probably demanded be included: if the church could legally be sent out, then Satan must legally be allowed to stop or try to stop the advance of the gospel: seals 2 through 4. Well, these seals HAD to get opened to get to seal 7 where Satan would be dethroned.

Since this was God's plan from the beginning, I want to ask you a monumental question: if you were God, and your son had just risen from the dead and qualified Himself to take the book and begin opening the seals - so the book could be opened so Satan could be dethroned: ....wait for it now...would YOU WAIT 2000 years before allowed or instruction or having your Son to begin opening the seals?  I think not!

No, it was SO IMPORTANT that as soon as Jesus ascended, He went straight to the Father, got the book, and began opening the seals. 

No dispute about the legalities or the plan of Yahweh. That is not what is in dispute.  

[The Light]

13 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

 

Quote

Anyway.....on the Matt. 24 Exegesis I did. And by the way I would rather be led by the Spirit than smart anyday. Amen.

I'd rather be both, LOL. Sorry to hear about your mom.

Quote

Quote

Matt. 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? AND what shall be the sign of thy coming, AND of the end of the world?

{{{ The Disciples asked Jesus THREE THINGS here, WHEN shall these things be, speaking about the Temple being destroyed first off, THEN what is the sign of your coming, AND what is the end of the World {or end of the age}. So when Jesus answers, the he tells about the EVENTS that lead up to the SIGN of his coming, but not many actually get it, it verse 14 that ends all the signs of his coming, and thus it ends the Church Age. The we get the Tribulation which ends with the End of the Age [of man]. Or the Second Coming of Christ with the Church to Conquer Satan. Verses 4-6 is about 70 AD, which is almost like unto the Second Coming Event shown in Zechariah 14, ad there is a reason for that. If the Jews had of accepted Christ there would have been no Church Age, Jesus would have saved Israel from thE Romans in 70 AD, but God knew they would reject him, that is why the Statue and the Four Beasts have a 2000 year SKIP i the prophecy, take out the Church Age and they all fit together perfectly like a seamless dress. }}}

No sir. Verses 4-6 is not about 70 AD. This is totally incorrect. I think you are confusing the Matt 24 with what is said in Luke 21.

Matt 24

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

 

Quote

{{{ This is describing the Church Age AND the Disciples coming DEATHS !! After 70 AD, Jesus starts describing the Church Age Troubles the Church will go through. He describes it as a Woman in BIRTH/Sorrows/Labor Pains. So we had 2000 years of Wars....more wars.....famines.....pestilences and earthquakes etc. etc. This is NOT the Great Tribulation of course, this BIRTHS the 70th week. That is why Jesus describes it as the SORROWS of a Woman in birth, the baby is not here, but the SIGNS are all around you, shes in LABOR !! But this is not nor can be about the 70th week Tribulation. Jesus tells the Disciples they will DELIVER YOU UP to be killed, this is SPECIFICALLY ABOUT HIS Disciples coming deaths. So this is the START of the Sorrows. }}}

Don't you think if Jesus is talking end times in Matt 24 that we should be able to find what He said in Revelation? Jesus is not talking about 2000 years, He is answering their question about end times. Then we see John give a rehash of what Jesus said.

Rev 6

⁴ And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

⁵ And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.

⁶ And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

⁷ And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.

⁸ And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

 

Quote

Matt. 24:15-31 is about the Tribulation, and the Second Coming. Thus the 3rd question is answered, what will be the End.

No, Matt 4-25 is about the tribulation. Matt 29-31 is not the Second Coming when Jesus sets up His kingdom on earth, it is about the gathering that Paul talks about before the Day of the Lord begins. It is a gathering from heaven and earth, just like it says.

Again, don't you think that if Jesus was talking about the end times in Matt 24, which He was, we ought to be able to see the same things in Revelation. They are there in Rev 6. From the tribulation, to the cosmic signs, to the coming of Jesus for the gathering prior to the wrath of God.

Also, the end of the age starts the Day of the Lord, which begins with his wrath. The church will be in heaven in Rev 5 and return in the clouds with Jesus for the gathering. This gathering will include ALL that will attend the marriage supper. This includes the Church, the old testament saints, and both the twelve tribes that are scattered across the earth and the Gentiles that come to know the Lord during the Tribulation

BTW, this has never happened. There are still stones, one upon another.

Matt 24

² And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

 

Edited June 2, 2019 by The Light

[iamlamad]

I think Matthew 24 and Luke 21 are two men writing about the very same discourse.