Mid Trib rapture anyone?

[iamlamad]

Just now, Spock said:

I still have a lot to sort out LA now that I recently discovered this “truth”.....the chapter 11-13 timeline with the rapture in the middle at 12:5.  So let me get back to you as to how I see the trumpets and bowls play out. I’m still processing this all only now with a new filter. 

Consider me like an artist and so far all I’ve done is the etching, before I begging to paint. 

As for 12:1-5, it seems we are all ganging up on you!  ? 

Don't forget in your meditating, my axiom on Revelation: if you are forced to rearrange to fit a theory, that theory will be proven wrong.

Edited March 8, 2019 by iamlamad

[Spock]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

I choose the trib saints. The 144,000 are probably already raptured, but John has not had time to cover them yet - too many other things happen at the midpoint. John gets introduced to the two witnesses, then to the Dragon, then to the Beast who will be possessed by the Dragon. All these events are very close to the midpoint of the week.  I think the 144, being first fruits will not have to suffer under the Beast. In chapter 14 I don't think John saw them as martyrs. 

I am certainly amazed that you set not only your OWN appointment with His Wrath, you are willing to set appointments for the entire Bride of Christ with His wrath! Amazing!

No no no....I will not have a model that has either the church or myself in God’s wrath.....I know better. 

[Spock]

If anyone is interested in studying Rev 12 deeper with a possible different interpretation, here is a good web site. It is a PRE TRIB website so you should know this.  Again, I’m not telling you this is accurate or that you have to accept its message....that is up to you.  Just something to consider. 

https://www.unsealed.org/2017/01/the-revelation-12-sign-compendium.html

Edited March 8, 2019 by Spock

[Spock]

16 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Will Harpazo FIT? That is the only question you need ask. 

A form of this word is used 14 times:

14 Occurrences

ἁρπαγησόμεθα — 1 Occ.  This one is used for the rapture in 1 thes. 
ἁρπαγέντα — 1 Occ.
ἁρπάσαι — 2 Occ.
ἁρπάσει — 1 Occ.
ἁρπάζει — 2 Occ.
ἁρπάζειν — 2 Occ.
ἁρπάζοντες — 1 Occ.
ἁρπάζουσιν — 1 Occ.
ἡρπάγη — 1 Occ.
ἥρπασεν — 1 Occ.
ἡρπάσθη — 1 Occ.  This was is used here in Rev. 12. 

In its different forms it can mean:  catch up (4x), take by force (3x), catch away (2x), pluck (2x), catch (1x), pull (1x).

Was Jesus pulled up? Was He caught away? It may well be each of these 14 uses has a distinct "flavor" to it. 

We will just have to ask John when we get there why he used that particular word.

It is poor exegesis to make a verse say what you want it to say using only ONE WORD!

Ellicot's commentary:  There can be no doubt that this man child is Christ

Barne's Notes:  And she brought forth a man child - Representing, according to the view above taken, the church ...

And her child was caught up unto God - This is evidently a symbolical representation. Some event was to occur, or some divine interposition was to take place, as if the child thus born were caught up from the earth to save it from death, and was rendered secure by being in the presence of God, and near his throne. It cannot be supposed that anything like this would "literally" occur. Any divine interposition to protect the church in its increase, or to save it from being destroyed by the dragon - the fierce pagan power - would be properly represented by this. Why may we not suppose the reference to be to the time of Constantine, when the church came under his protection

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Commentary:   A rod is for long-continued obstinacy until they submit themselves to obedience [Bengel]: Re 2:27; Ps 2:9, which passages prove the Lord Jesus to be meant. Any interpretation which ignores this must be wrong. The male son's birth cannot be the origin of the Christian state (Christianity triumphing over heathenism under Constantine),...

Matthew Poole Commentary:  rule all nations with a rod of iron. It was prophesied of Christ, Psalm 2:9, that he should break the nations with a rod of iron. It is applied to the servants of Christ, who overcome, and keep Christ’s words to the end, Revelation 2:27. So as it is here applicable to believers, whom the church should bring forth... To interpret it of Christ’s being taken up into heaven, is to turn a mysterious prophecy into a plain relation, or history of things past. To interpret it concerning Constantine the Great, seemeth very hard

Gill's Commentary: And she brought forth a man child,.... Not Christ, literally and personally considered, or Christ in his human nature, as made of a woman, and born of a virgin, which was a fact that had been years ago; but Christ mystically, or Christ in his members, who are called by his name, because he is formed in them, and they are the seed of the woman, the church; 

It seems the commentaries almost all are against me in this! Imagine that. I found it VERY strange, not one commentary that I found ever mentioned the constellation Virgo, and most people today are SURE that is what is being referenced. 

I was really disappointed in the commentaries here. 

The sun and moon reference goes back to Joseph and His dreams. The 12 stars reference the 12 tribes of Israel. There can be no question the woman is Israel. Who was Israel pregnant with? The Messiah had been promised for thousands of years, but finally came through a virgin. Psalms tell us Jesus, the Messiah was to rule with a rod of Iron.

Then there is the CONTEXT: the Dragon is mentioned 32 times in this chapter. Make no mistake, this chapter is about the Dragon. In particular it is about what the Dragon would be doing in the last half of the week. He would be after the woman who flees into the wilderness - that is, those that live in Judea. Does the church live in Judea? Is the church fleeing? Then when the Dragon finds that the woman that fled is supernaturally protected, He turns to war against the remnant of her offspring, those that follow Jesus. Notice it is ONLY a remnant. 

This is the ONLY reference in this chapter that fits the church, and at this time it is ONLY a remnant.  We already KNOW the church was raptured way back 3.5 plus years before  - just before the 6th seal. How then can you possibly see ANY reference here to the rapture? You are confusing the woman  - Israel - with the church. 

 

Hey LA...look what I found.....I have a bunch of dead guys too talking about Rev 12.....

https://www.unsealed.org/2017/08/conservative-scholars-agree-male-child.html

[backontrack]

On 2/17/2019 at 8:56 AM, Spock said:

This might be long, but I hope it is interesting enough to not abandon.I want to go on record and say I am not advocating a mid Trib rapture.....but rather am just asking questions to see the pros and cons for such doctrine. Here is what I’m thinking:

1. I don’t really know if the four horsemen have ridden or not, and I really don’t know if the AC is the rider on the white horse and begins the releasing of the seals. In addition,  I don’t really know if the seals begin right when Daniels 70th week begins. I see support for both positions (already ridden or future).

2. I feel much stronger in my belief that the rapture occurs around the 6th seal and this rapture is represented in the Bible in Rev 7:9-17.  But I still am foggy as to WHEN the 6th seal occurs in relation to Daniels 70th week.

3. I presently believe the 6th seal is released BEFORE the 70th week commences, which means before the covenant being confirmed, but I’m not closed to still studying other thoughts. In particular the MID TRIB RAPTURE PERSPECTIVE. 

4. I’m not interested in reading about the POST TRIB RAPTURE because I’ve read enough and find it wanting, and don’t even want to discuss this, so please no post Trib talk on this thread. I’ve studied the PRE WRATH position and agree the rapture occurs around the 6th seal but do not agree in the timing Rosenthal and Van Kampen put forth...around two years after the abomination of desolation. Im okay with pre weathers coming on this thread to share their thoughts and show me why the 6th seal cannot be released at the mid point. 

5. So, here is what I’m interested  in reading your feedback with Bible support of course: can the rapture occur either shortly before or shortly after the abomination of desolation?  Jesus did say, “when you see the abomination of desolation, run....”. I’m not 100% sure he is only talking to Jews because he believes the Christians will be gone by this time. So I’m open to discuss this...is it possible the rapture could occur immediately after this event?  Or is it possible it could occur immediately before this event.  Because I do believe the raptured and resurrected Saints are shown in Rev 7:9-17, when John says to the angel, who are these people, the reply is, “they came out of the great tribulation.”  This to me can mean one of two things....came out so as not to experience at all, or came out while in it. If we are in it, I feel confident it is before the trumpet and bowl judgments because the 7th seal follows the 6th seal and there is a time of silence followed by the 7 trumpet judgments. 

6. I believe The Day of the Lord (DOTL) is God’s wrath=trumpets and bowls, and  would then begin immediately after the rapture. When Rev 6:17 says “for the great day of their wrath has come” I believe this is when the day of the lord begins...right after 6th seal.

7. I’m not sold on the belief that the 70th week is only a time of Jacobs trouble and thus EXCLUSIVELY for Jews. I don’t see why the Church can’t be here as well for a while and there is a partial overlap. There always has been an overlap, right?  So this argument to support a pre Trib rapture doesn’t hold a lot of weight for me. It holds a little, but not a lot. 

8. I believe all the precursors for the DOTL to commence are all met as well with a Mid Trib position: 

a. Elijah comes first (two witnesses come in first half of the week before DOTL); Malachi 4

b. The AC is revealed first (revealing could either be when the covenant is  confirmed or at the AOD, either way, that precedes the DOTL); 2 Thess 2

c. The apostasy comes first (falling away of the Church precedes DOTL during the first half of the week); 2 Thess 2

d. Heavenly wonders, blood red moon, etc precede DOTL (6th seal precedes DOTL); Joel 2

in addition, pursuant to 1 Thess 5 the DOTL “will come like a thief in the night while the people are saying “peace and safety”” so I’m assuming after the covenant is confirmed, there will be some kind of peace treaty that allows for Jews to rebuild their temple. There should be peace in the Middle East for some 3 years following this treaty....then BOOM! 

Conclusion: So, unless you think this line of thinking has merit, please tell me why the 6th seal can’t be released at the mid point of the week, shortly before or after? I’m all ears and will respect your input. Again, my purpose is not to win people to my way of thinking, but rather to help me think out other perspectives that I am now considering to see if my present belief (pre Trib) is still the best theory out there. Thank you my brothers and sisters in Christ.  Spock 

How about This!

is going. Proverbs 14:15

Solid Proof The Rapture Theory is False

I am not someone who likes to beat around the bush all day. Why waste the time? If there is a bird in that bush, reach in there and nab that rascal! As a researcher and a writer I prefer means and methods which get right at the heart of a matter. And I have a couple of questions I like to present to those who promote the pre-trib rapture theory which do exactly that. I find these two questions thought provoking and enlightening, but amazingly I have had great trouble finding a rapture theorist who will address these two questions in an honest and strait-forward manner.

I am either given as answers ‘straw-man’ arguments, which have nothing to do with my questions, or a sad rerun of ‘Discredit the message by discrediting the messenger’ (if I can find fault with you I can justify ignoring what you have to say). I can show where all my beliefs about the Return of Christ are plainly and clearly stated in the Bible. The rapture theorist (since it is an ‘implicit’ doctrine) cannot do so, and this lack of biblical support often becomes a great frustration to them. Let me pose these two questions to you, and ask you for an answer that is not an end-run around the question:

Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 1Thessalonians 5:21

I see questions of this nature as being of vital importance to a proper understanding of eschatology. They cause a person to engage in the type of critical reasoning that cuts through the fog of Scripture twisting, unsupported statements, and outright lies that false teachings are cloaked in. Here are the two questions:

QUESTION #1

Rapture theorists teach that the Coming of Christ for the Church, and our gathering together unto him, is ‘imminent’ (likely to happen at any second). This concept is a pillar of the pre-trib rapture theory, and without it the theory collapses. They claim the Apostle Paul believed this doctrine of ‘the Imminent Return’ because it was revealed to him by God, that he taught this concept to his followers, and wrote his letters (that we know as Scripture) with this notion presented in them. My first question is this:

Exactly when did the Coming of Christ and the Resurrection / Catching-away BECOME imminent? There had to be a time when it was not imminent (before the Cross for example) and then there had to have come a moment when it was now imminent. Exactly when was that moment; when did the rapture BECOME imminent?

(If you would like you can post an answer in the comment area below, but please NO straw-man (irrelevant issue) arguments that distract from the subject at hand. I ask that you would directly answer the question.)

MY ANSWER:

Let me tell you why the pre-trib rapture theorist will not, and in fact cannot, directly address that question. It is because the truthful answer is catastrophic to their doctrine. The truth is that the Return of Christ for the Church could not have been imminent in the days of the early Church, could not have been imminent down through the centuries, could not be imminent today, and will not be imminent until immediately before it actually happens. This is easily provable by examining the Scriptures themselves.

THE PROOF

There are actually quite a number of prophesies that prohibited the Resurrection / Catching-away from being imminent in the days of the early Church. Let’s first look at just one major road block to this concept: the prophesied death of Peter by being martyred as an old man. The Lord Jesus himself gave this prophesy (John 21:18). It is an irrefutable truism.

Historical writings give us a pretty good idea as to not only when Peter died, but also when Paul died. Smith’s Bible Dictionary says, “According to the early writers, he (Peter) died at or about the same time with Paul, and in the Neronian persecution, A.D. 67 or 68. All agree that he (Peter) was crucified.”

From this information so far we can know the following to be absolutely true:

1.  Jesus said Peter would die as an old man, therefor the Resurrection / Catching-away could NOT happen until this prophesy was fulfilled.
2. Paul died about the same time as Peter. This means the Resurrection / Catching away was NOT imminent during the span of Paul’s ministry to the Body of Christ, and therefor God did NOT reveal to him any such thing! It was not a possibility until the death of Peter!
3. Paul would NOT (under the unction of the Holy Spirit) have taught as doctrine to his followers something that could not possibly happen, nor would he have included this concept in his writings to them. The Scriptures were penned by God himself using holy men as vessels. God does not lie, nor does his Word! It would have been a lie to teach and promote as imminent something NOT possible in his lifetime, amd the Holy Spirit would not have guided Paul to state a falsehood in his writings to the Church!

There are many other prophetic statements standing in the way of an imminent Return that had to be fulfilled first, and many that still need fulfillment (they are scattered throughout the pages of the Bible). For the sake of time and space let’s look at the last one (as far as I can tell) to be fulfilled before the Resurrection of the Just and our gathering together unto our Lord could occur.

Many say Job is the oldest of the Biblical writings. Even he prophesied of the Resurrection of the Dead. And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God (Job 19:26). I have heard many a pre-trib rapture teacher quote that verse from Job, but never this passage:

But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he? 11 As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. Job 14:10-12

This unspeakable event in which the heavens go away is spoken of in nearly twenty different places in the Bible yet rarely preached on. Job prophesied this event would PRECEDE our Resurrection! According to the prophesies of the Bible the Resurrection / Catching-away could not become imminent until after the heavens vanish. A thorough look at all the passages detailing this event in the heavens show it to happen either just before, or in conjunction with, the Second Coming of Christ right after the tribulation.

CONCLUSION:

Thus we see the doctrine of the ‘Imminent Return’ is a provable lie.

• To say God revealed to Paul the rapture was ‘imminent’ is a lie!
• To say the Apostle Paul believed this doctrine is a lie.
• To say Paul taught this doctrine to his followers is a lie.
• To say Paul wrote his letters that we know as Scripture with this notion presented in them is a lie.
• To say the Coming of Christ for the Church has been imminent for two thousand years is a lie.
• To say the Coming of Christ for the Church is now imminent is a lie.

The Return of Jesus to catch us away will not be imminent until ALL prophesies that prevent it are fulfilled. The doctrine of the ‘Imminent Return’ is not from the Bible; The Bible refutes such a notion.

QUESTION #2.  Please pay particular attention to the wording of the following verses.

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming (Greek – Parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2Thessalonians 2:1

When Paul wrote to the Church at Thessalonica he earnestly urged them to consider his words about the Return of Jesus and our gathering together unto him; as I also urge you here and now. This second question addresses an aspect of the Coming of Christ and our rising to meet him.

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming (Greek – Parousia). 24 Then cometh the end… 1Corinthians 15:22-24

Some try and split up the Resurrection of the Just into a number of events taking place over a period of time. But here the Bible plainly nails it down to one event taking place at one time. We are given here the order of the Resurrection. Christ first, then all they which are his at his Coming / Parousia. First the Head – then the Body. The Resurrection of the Just and our gathering together unto Christ take place at his Coming / Parousia. Plainly stated!

And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming (Greek – Parousia): 2Thessalonians 2:8

This verse speaks of the destruction of the Antichrist at the end of his 42 month reign of terror. This brings us to my second question (please take a moment and earnestly consider this):

How could the Coming /Parousia (and our gathering unto Jesus) destroy Antichrist at the end of his 42 month reign if the Coming /Parousia (and our gathering unto Jesus) happens before the tribulation? How is this possible?

(Again you are welcome to answer this question in the comment section below, but PLEASE do not insult my intelligence (or give others an unfavorable impression of yours) by stating an unsupported element of the rapture theory as a non-answer; such as, “Well, I believe the rapture and the Second Coming are two different things, so there’s your answer.” Stating your beliefs as proof of your beliefs proves nothing at all. I am looking for an answer that actually addresses the conflict the rapture theory creates with the verses given, and the fact they all point to one event.)

MY ANSWER:

This conflict with Scripture disappears if you place the Coming / Parousia (and our gathering unto Jesus) where the Bible rightly does: at the Second Coming of Christ immediately after the tribulation of those days (Matt. 24:29-31). There is NO prior event taught in the Word of God.

ADDITIONAL WITNESS

Here is some additional commentary. This is an excerpt from the book ‘The Pre-trib Rapture: A Bucket Full of Holes!’ by Paul Benson

Outright Lie: The Coming (parousia) of Christ and his Revelation (apokalupsis) are two separate events.

The rapture theory centers around a false notion that there are two separate returns of Jesus in the end-time events. To illustrate the difference in these two events we are explained the first is his invisible Coming (Greek-parousia) to ‘rapture’ the Church, and the second is his Revelation (Greek-apokalupsis) where he is revealed to the world and pours out judgment.

There are a number of words used to refer to the Coming / Return of Christ: coming (Greek-‘parousia’), revelation (Greek-apokalupsis), coming (Greek-erchomai) etc., and if you compare their usage in the Bible you will see times they are used interchangeably to refer to the same event. A glaring example is to look at Jesus comparing his Return to the days of Noah and Lot in Matthew 24, and then look at Luke’s account. Matthew has Jesus using the word coming (parousia), but in Luke Jesus speaks of it as the day he will be revealed (apokalupto). Both words are describing the same event! His coming (parousia) is the day he will be revealed (apokalupto).

So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming (apokalupsis) of our Lord Jesus Christ: 1 Corinthians 1:7

The Revelation (apokalupsis) of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass. Revelation 1:1

In the first verse above we have the word ‘apokalupsis’ there translated as coming. The same Greek word is translated in the next example as Revelation! Are you waiting for an unbiblical rapture; or waiting for the Resurrection of the Just at the Coming / Revelation (apokalupsis) of Christ?

The Coming of Christ we are waiting for and the Revelation of Jesus Christ are one and the selfsame event! You will not find in the Bible ONE passage of Scripture that plainly describes two comings of Jesus in the end-times. This concept is not from the Bible.

And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear (phaneroo), we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming (parousia). 1 John 2:28

His Appearance and his Coming are the same event! To separate into two events what the Word of God plainly shows to be one Coming of Christ is error and deception. The pre-trib rapture theory is once again at odds with what is plainly taught in the Scriptures. There are NOT two separate returns of Christ taught in the Bible; this teaching is gross error.

The pre-trib-rapture myth is a creation of man, and is a lie against the truth. As all lies are, it is a defilement! If you have been believing and promoting that falsehood I lovingly encourage you to reject it now, and seek the Lord’s forgiveness. If you will turn from that lie and repent for having received it (and taught it to others), God will forgive you and cleanse you from that defilement by the blood of his Son Jesus Christ. He awaits your response. I am praying for you.

Edited March 8, 2019 by backontrack

[Spock]

Backontrack,

Party-pooper!  ???‍♂️??

[backontrack]

3 hours ago, ARGOSY said:

Lol good approach. But another thing to be aware of , is it's only 3.5 years from the revealing of the antichrist. Not 7 years. 

If somehow we bypass the 7 year treaty ( I think we won't even know about that) , then suddenly the antichrist comes to power, it's only a short 3.5 years to wait. So be encouraged on that outside chance you find yourself in the tribulation.

Many heads will be lost during this time will see who really belongs to Christ it's coming so get ready.

[ARGOSY]

26 minutes ago, backontrack said:

Many heads will be lost during this time will see who really belongs to Christ it's coming so get ready.

True.  We must be careful to escape all these things like anxieties and drunkenness:“Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you suddenly like a trap. ³⁵ For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth.  Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.” 

[Spock]

Rev 11 question  I have for anyone interested...

 Rev 11:15:  when the 7th trumpet was blown, why did the angel say, “The kingdom of the world HAS BECOME the kingdom of our Lord and he shall reign forever?” 

Why then?  What event precipitated this declaration? 

Thanks.

 

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, Spock said:

Hey LA...look what I found.....I have a bunch of dead guys too talking about Rev 12.....

https://www.unsealed.org/2017/08/conservative-scholars-agree-male-child.html

Hmmm..

"First of all, every conservative theologian that's worth reading does not interpret Revelation chapter twelve, the woman and the stars and all, as this young man [Steve Cioccolanti] has just stated.  It refers to the nation of Israel.  It's a eschatological, parenthetical insert.  It's an announcement that the nation of Israel will bring forth the man-child, the Messiah.  The Messiah came from Israel.  The twelve stars representing the twelve tribes.  This is longtime-held conservative, orthodox eschatology of the book of Revelation.  Number two: It's Revelation chapter twelve.  It's very clear that this is during the Tribulation period, Jan, and this young man says it's going to happen soon..."

I believe this, 100%! Good! As for the dead guys, revelation knowledge of the word was very slim in those days. Note, he says, "that's worth reading!" If its wrong, it is not worth reading!  ?

CAn this refer to Christ AND the church? Did the church come from Israel by birth? I don't think so. This is taking about a real birth. The Gentile church of today came about because Israel as a nation rejected their Messiah, so God turned to the Gentiles.  What the chapter is really about is the dragon. Plain and simple and IN context.

It is a fact, I disagree with much those dead guys had to say.