Matthew 10:28 and hell

[frienduff thaylorde]

1 minute ago, DarrenJClark said:

What are you talking about?  What group?  Who is Gilbert?  Who is contacting people by private message?  Not me.

You are poisoning the well without addressing my arguments.

Please stop speculating on my background and motives.

 

 

The spirit that was behind gilbert is behind you .    Yall say the same things .

I never said YOU ARE gilbert .  But I recognize this spirit .

You need to quit teaching this .   We should be simply pointing to CHRIST as the means to escape the lake of fire .  Not trying to water it down .

Preach CHRIST and leave your message out of it .   

[DarrenJClark]

Just now, frienduff thaylorde said:

The spirit that was behind gilbert is behind you .    Yall say the same things .

I never said YOU ARE gilbert .  But I recognize this spirit .

You need to quit teaching this .   We should be simply pointing to CHRIST as the means to escape the lake of fire .  Not trying to water it down .

Preach CHRIST and leave your message out of it .   

What spirit are you talking about? 

 

All I have done is demonstrate from the Bible that there is very good contextual evidence that Matthew 10:28 teaches Gehenna is the place where the body and soul (the whole person) are killed.  I am inviting people to critique my arguments directly to test them. 

 

I have not denied, and never would deny, that Christ is the means to escape the LoF.  I am an Evangelical conditionalist.  Jesus Christ is the God-man who died on the cross and was resurrected.  It is only by being in him that we have salvation.   Those without Christ will perish.   That doctrine is central to my faith as an Evangelical and as a conditionalist.  

 

Again, please, stop fabricating this story of my intentions and poisoning the well.  

 

If you could address my arguments regarding Matthew 10:28 and effectively rebut them then I would change my understanding of that verse.  I am an exegete, that is what good exegetes do. 

[frienduff thaylorde]

3 minutes ago, DarrenJClark said:

What spirit are you talking about? 

 

All I have done is demonstrate from the Bible that there is very good contextual evidence that Matthew 10:28 teaches Gehenna is the place where the body and soul (the whole person) are killed.  I am inviting people to critique my arguments directly to test them. 

 

I have not denied, and never would deny, that Christ is the means to escape the LoF.  I am an Evangelical conditionalist.  Jesus Christ is the God-man who died on the cross and was resurrected.  It is only by being in him that we have salvation.   Those without Christ will perish.   That doctrine is central to my faith as an Evangelical and as a conditionalist.  

 

Again, please, stop fabricating this story of my intentions and poisoning the well.  

 

If you could address my arguments regarding Matthew 10:28 and effectively rebut them then I would change my understanding of that verse.  I am an exegete, that is what good exegetes do. 

Evangelical conditionalist.     What on earth does this mean .   

[DarrenJClark]

Just now, frienduff thaylorde said:

Evangelical conditionalist.     What on earth does this mean .   

So, you have been commenting on my spirit and you have no idea what I believe?  

There are many evangelicals who hold to the doctrine of conditional immortality.  Evangelicalism has a high view of Scripture and places the Gospel at the centre of our doctrine (alongside essential doctrines like the Trinity and the hypostatic union of Christ's dual natures in his person).  Conditionalism merely holds that only God has immortality.  Since humans are created and do not possess natural immortality then the only way they can receive that is through Christ.  So any immortality we do have is conditioned on being a believer in Christ.  As humans are not inherently immortal they will be destroyed at the last judgment.  This last statement is literally the only point I differ from the traditional idea of hell in Evangelicalism.  I do not deviate from any core Evangelical doctrine.

I would share some information with you to help you understand my view but I fear you will interpret that as some kind of plot to steer you away from the faith.  I am happy to answer any questions you have about Evangelical conditionalism of it help allay any fears you have but that was not the point of my original post.  I just want people to engage with my arguments about Matt 10:28 so that I can test them.  

[JustPassingThru]

4 hours ago, DarrenJClark said:

Check out my response to missmuffet.   Why do you think I do not depend on the HS?  Why could the HS not have led me to read Matt 10:28 literally for what it says?

Because the basic flaw in your thinking is man is composed only a soul and a body, ...whereas the Holy Spirit teaches us man is a spirit, connected to his soul Heb 4:12, living inside of a human body.

Another error you make is the verse says God is able to destroy the soul and body, it doesn't say He does, it just says He could, but let's follow along with your hypothesis, the soul and body are destroyed, the verse doesn't say anything about the spirit being destroyed so it's still alive, with the soul and body destroyed, ...have you ever been insane, ...if not, let me say your soul is destroyed, incapable, of emotion: no joy, no gladness, no happiness, no kindness, no desire to help others, no desire to help yourself, only sorrow, deep profound sorrow, ...why, because in your mind you will be remembering all of the times you rejected the Gospel, mocked God and His children, and at the same time your new indestructible body will be burning and eaten up with worms, ...more to be sorrowful about. 

So there you are in the Lake of Fire, your spirit is still alive, you can't show us one verse that teaches the spirit dies, ...with your soul and body being painfully destroyed for all of Eternity, ...why do we know it's painful, because Jesus suffered the punishment and pain we deserved, ...if we refuse the gift of Salvation offered then we will have to suffer the Wrath of God for our sin and the punishment will be eternal because the blood of bulls, rams, goats, doves, and may I add man, only covered the sins of the people, only the Blood of God's Son could pay the Redemption price for our souls, so since the redemption wasn't accepted, the sinner will spend Eternity, as we know it to be today, forever and ever, in the wrath and punishment of a Thrice Holy God, ...the same Wrath that was poured out on His Son.

 

[DarrenJClark]

Just now, JustPassingThru said:

Because the basic flaw in your thinking is man is composed only a soul and a body, ...whereas the Holy Spirit teaches us man is a spirit, connected to his soul Heb 4:12, living inside of a human body.

You do realize there is no consensus on biblical anthropology, right?  There are physicalists, dualists, and the tripartate view.  To varying degrees you will find that people argue a range of things regarding that terminology.  Are you going to label everyone who disagrees with you as not relying on the HS?  

 

 I read "body and soul" as a merism denoting the whole person but that is not my statement that there are not necessarily other part of the human (nor is this statement an affirmation that there is more).  It is a merism.

 

At least someone is finally engaging with my argument and the verse. 

[DarrenJClark]

8 minutes ago, JustPassingThru said:

Another error you make is the verse says God is able to destroy the soul and body, it doesn't say He does, it just says He could,

So what is the point of the statement then.  Do not be afraid of men who can kill but be afraid one who could destroy you but won't?  That render the whole point of the verse moot.  Jesus might as well have said do not be afraid of one who can send you to a circus, but he won't.  That is bad exegesis because it refutes the very point of the verse.

[DarrenJClark]

12 minutes ago, JustPassingThru said:

the soul and body are destroyed, the verse doesn't say anything about the spirit being destroyed so it's still alive, with the soul and body destroyed, ...have you ever been insane, ...if not, let me say your soul is destroyed, incapable, of emotion: no joy, no gladness, no happiness, no kindness, no desire to help others, no desire to help yourself, only sorrow, deep profound sorrow, ...why, because in your mind you will be remembering all of the times you rejected the Gospel, mocked God and His children, and at the same time your new indestructible body will be burning and eaten up with worms, ...more to be sorrowful about. 

An argument from silence brought on by your precommitment to a particular view of anthropology and leads you to eisegesis (reading into) the verse.  My reading does not require or deny any view of anthropology so does not fall into this fallacy.

[DarrenJClark]

15 minutes ago, JustPassingThru said:

So there you are in the Lake of Fire, your spirit is still alive, you can't show us one verse that teaches the spirit dies, ...with your soul and body being painfully destroyed for all of Eternity, ...why do we know it's painful, because Jesus suffered the punishment and pain we deserved, ...if we refuse the gift of Salvation offered then we will have to suffer the Wrath of God for our sin and the punishment will be eternal because the blood of bulls, rams, goats, doves, and may I add man, only covered the sins of the people, only the Blood of God's Son could pay the Redemption price for our souls, so since the redemption wasn't accepted, the sinner will spend Eternity, as we know it to be today, forever and ever, in the wrath and punishment of a Thrice Holy God, ...the same Wrath that was poured out on His Son.

I never claimed the destruction in Matt 20:28 is painless.  You are assuming my view involves a pain free demise then are refuting that.  This is called a strawman argument.  

 

And you seem to be making the mistake that I think the punishment is not eternal.  That is another strawman argument.   I believe the punishment is eternal.  At least try to engage with what I have actually argued, please.

 

And, in the Bible the wages of sin is death and Christ's own death and resurrection is what is specifically pays that penalty for us.  He suffered, yes, but where is his suffering said to be the part that pays our penalty.  The wrath that was poured out on Christ killed him and that same divine wrath poured out on the wicked at the last judgement will kill them too.

 

Can we get back to discussing my exegesis?

[Still Alive]

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Edited March 7, 2019 by Still Alive