The Hebrews Roots Movement

[BeauJangles]

46 minutes ago, BeauJangles said:

Are you Jewish, converted to Judaism, or just another Christian who wishes now to observe the tanakh because you found the regiment to observance of 613 - 1 law concerning women's mense, something you felt led to do?

And I assume you'll never give me other than an elusive answer here. 

[dhchristian]

1 hour ago, BibleGuy said:

Jesus IS the Torah (Jn.1:14)

Jesus is the fulfillment of the Torah,(Matthew 5;17) Here is where we disagree. As a fulfillment of that which is a shadow we have one greater than the shadow. (col. 2:16-18, Hebrews 10:1). The Torah is a schoolmaster that leads us to Christ Jesus....Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. (Gal 3:24-25)

What you are proposing is to put us under the schoolmaster once again, But we are under Christ Jesus who is the head now, and we are the body, and Jesus Will continue on into the millennium to be the head of the body. I Do not think you grasp what it means to fulfill the Law, if you did You would not be reaching to place us under the yoke of this schoolmaster. For we are now under a new Law, the law of the Spirit of Life which has done away with the law of sin and death. (Romans 8:1-8) The Law of the Spirit of Life produces Spiritual fruit, which the Law of sin and death is incapable of doing. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,  Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. (Gal. 5:22-25)

The following verses should give you some idea what it means to say that Christ is the fulfillment of the Law. 

For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. (Gal. 2:19-21)

And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him. Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not. (Mal. 3:17-18)

Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. (Rom 10:1-4) 

God Bless

[Resurrection Priest]

Hi BibleGuy,

I was going to ask if you're the only one posting in this thread.  But I see someone else.  I thought this had turned into your thread. 

[Still Alive]

21 hours ago, BibleGuy said:

Thanks for the links!

Heiser's reliance upon Chris Putnam, though, is a GOOD sign that Heiser has NOT done his research.

Good Torah-based Christian scholars include J.K.Mckee and Tim Hegg....that's a MUCH better place to start.....not Heiser.

Putnam's arguments are weak (and easily refuted)....

Let's talk about it!

blessings...

I wonder if he just thinks Putnam's arguments are "good enough to get the job done". 

Personally, I focus more on what Heiser is actually saying, himself. 

[Resurrection Priest]

On 11/25/2019 at 4:48 AM, BibleGuy said:

"I just don't believe we will be killing animals"

Of course not.  The sanctioned PRIESTS would be doing the killing....not you.

Hey look:  You just used a CORPORATE description there!  

You said "we"....but you weren't really referring to EVERYONE of us....but just to the animal-sacrificing priests who would be among us, right?

See how that works?

Nope.  When I said "we", I meant any one of the saved, regardless of DNA heritage.  The "CORPORATE" would include those of Levite/Aaronic heritage as well.  In the Kingdom, "there is neither Jew nor Gentile" (or Levite).  There is just one CORPORATE body of saved "Israel" - all of whom are made "priests of God and of Christ" regardless of former heritage. 

[Resurrection Priest]

22 hours ago, BibleGuy said:

Also, remember, tribal identity is NOT rigidly genetically determined (e.g., Eze. 47:23;Dt.29;Dt.31;Is.56), and we are evidently free to join, as COMPANIONS, which ever part of Israel we prefer (given Eze.37:15-20).

Really.  So DNA descendants of tribes, could change their tribe?  A descendant of Manasseh could decide he wanted to be a member of Reuben or Zebulun? Wouldn't his "new" tribe have to approve him as a member?  I kinda think Yeshua will appoint saved individuals to a tribe?  That's if there actually are separate "tribes" in the Kingdom. 

I do believe one will need to be an Israelite - to enter the New Jerusalem, which does not "descend" until all sin is cleansed from the earth. 

I used to puzzle over Ezekiel 44:9, about circumcision of "the flesh".  Until I realized that we will ALL be "circumcised in our flesh" at the Glorious Return, by Yeshua.  The old "flesh" will be gone, and we will receive our new spiritual bodies.  It means that only those with the new spiritual body will be able to enter God's future "Sanctuary". 

Ezekiel 44:9 Thus saith the Lord GOD; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary (Eze 44:9 KJV)

Joshua (Yeshua) "circumcised the people" after he led the people over the Jordan which "rolled back as a scroll".  Then they ate the Passover.  

Jesus (Yeshua) will "circumcise" His redeemed people, as He leads them up through the sky that is "rolled back as a scroll" (Rev 6:14 and Isaiah 34:4).  Then He will eat the Passover, new with us in the Kingdom. 

[BibleGuy]

Hi there!  Thanks for continuing the chat!

" Jesus is the fulfillment of the Torah,(Matthew 5;17) "

Yes.  AND, FULFILL does not mean ABOLISH (otherwise Mt. 5:17 is an immediate self-contradiction).  Thus, Torah is still in force.

Again, Jesus says Torah is in force until AFTER heaven/earth pass away (Mt.5:18).

Again, Jesus requires even the SMALLEST of Torah commands (Mt.5:19) for ALL disciples of ALL nations.

Again, Jesus says that Torah-disobedience can lead to being LEAST (Mt.5:19), or worse (Mt.5:20), or worse (Mt.7:21-23), or worse (Mt.13:41-42).

Again, Jesus expects us to obey and LIVE (Mt.4:4 citing Dt.8:3 referring to Torah).

Again, Jesus requires ALL Torah (Mt.23:2-3,23).

Again, Jesus the apostles include Torah-teachers (Mt.23:34).

Again, Jesus says Torah-obedience is a sufficient condition of eternal life (Lk.10:25-28).

Again, Jesus requires perfection (Mt.5:48 citing Dt.18:13 referring to proper Torah-obedience), and says it's easy (Mt.11:30).

Again, Jesus gets ANGRY when Torah is disobeyed (Mk.7:8-9,13).  Sure, all foods are clean....but NOT ALL THINGS ARE FOOD!

So, that's quite a bit of evidence....I hope you get a chance to take a look at it.

 

" As a fulfillment of that which is a shadow we have one greater than the shadow. (col. 2:16-18, Hebrews 10:1). "

Agreed!  Jesus is the fulfillment of the shadow.

Jesus is greater than the shadow.

And the shadow CONTINUES (PRESENT tense in Col.2:17 and Heb.10:1....not past tense!)

So, the shadow-function of Torah CONTINUES!

Of course!  After all, that same Paul who wrote Col.2:17 also wrote Col. 3:16 which applies the Psalms to you...and Psalms require TORAH (Ps.1;19;119;etc.)

 

" we are no longer under a schoolmaster. (Gal 3:24-25) "

Of course we are no longer under the schoolmaster-function of Torah....because we have already now come to Christ!

But is that the ONLY function of Torah?  Of course not!

1. Torah is an ONGOING SHADOW pointing to Christ (Col.2:17;Heb.10:1)

2. Torah is essential to the New Covenant (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10;10:16).

3. Torah defines sin (Rom.3:20;7:7;1Jn.3:4).  So, STOP SINNING (1Cor.15:34) means OBEY TORAH.

4. Torah-disobedience is of the flesh (Rom.8:7)....so OPPOSING THE FLESH (Rom.8:13) means OBEY TORAH IN THE SPIRIT (Rom.8:13).

5. Torah is good (Rom.7:12).  Be good (Gal.6:10) means obey Torah!

6. Torah is holy (Rom.7:12).  Be holy (1Pe.1:16) means obey Torah!  (in fact, Peter explicitly applies Lev. 11 to you in 1Pe.1:16).

7. Torah is righteous (Rom.7:12).  DO righteousness (1Jn.2:29;3:7) means OBEY TORAH, or else you are a child of the devil (1Jn.3:10) who will not inherit the forthcoming kingdom (Mt.5:20).

8. Torah is spiritual (Rom.7:14).  Seek and desire that which is spiritual (1Cor.14:1) entails OBEYING TORAH.

 

So sure, the schoolmaster-function no longer leads us to Christ....because we have already come to Christ!

But these many other Torah-functions CONTINUE....

And guess what?  Jesus points us to obey Torah! (Mt.4:4;5:19-20,48;7:21-23;13:41-42;22:37;23:2-3,23,34;Lk.10:25-28;etc.)

So let's be sure to remember these OTHER ongoing Torah-functions.

 

" But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. (Gal 3:24-25) "

And FAITH, for Paul, entails TORAH (given Dt. 30:14 cited at Rom.10:8, given Hab.2:4 cited at Gal.3:11, given Rom.2:13+Rom.5:1;etc.)

 

" What you are proposing is to put us under the schoolmaster once again "

No, that would be silly!  The school-master function of Torah is to bring us to Christ....but you and I already accept Christ!  So, we don't need THAT particular function of Torah anymore.

But we do need the OTHER functions! (see above in this post)

 

" But we are under Christ Jesus who is the head now "

Very true.  We are under Christ who requires all Torah (Mt.5:19) for all disciples of all nations (Mt.28:19-20).

 

" if you did You would not be reaching to place us under the yoke of this schoolmaster. "

That's not my position.  Read again!  I just stated that we are NOT under the schoolmaster-function of Torah.

Rather, we are under Christ's yoke (Mt.11:30) which includes ALL Torah (Mt.5:19)....but NOT the schoolmaster-function.....rather, we are under all the OTHER ongoing Torah-functions! (read above)

 

" For we are now under a new Law, the law of the Spirit of Life which has done away with the law of sin and death. (Romans 8:1-8) "

Careful!  WHICH laws?

 

LAW #1: The law of sinful disobedience and death (Dt.30:11-15)

LAW #2: The law of righteous obedience and life (Dt.30:11-15)

 

Rom.8:2 only proves we are not under LAW #1!

But Jesus expects us to obey and LIVE (Mt.4:4;Dt.8:3, referring to Torah).

Paul expects ALL TORAH to correct and rebuke and train your behavior in righteousness (2Ti.3:16).

Paul upholds the SPIRIT (Rom.8:2)..and the Spirit opposes the flesh (Rom.8:13)...and the flesh opposes Torah (Rom.8:7)....so the Spirit opposes Torah-disobedience...so the Spirit UPHOLDS Torah-obedience!

Remember?  The Spirit leads us to obey Torah (Heb.10:15-16), even all Torah ordinances (Eze.36:27) "from now and forever" (Is.59:20-21 cited at Rom.11:16-27).

After all, the Spirit was given (Ac.2) the SAME DAY the Torah was given....of Course!

 

" The Law of the Spirit of Life produces Spiritual fruit "

And Paul requires the fruit of FAITH (Gal.5:22-23)....and FAITH (for Paul) entails TORAH (given Dt. 30:14 cited at Rom.10:8, given Hab.2:4 cited at Gal.3:11, given Rom.2:13+Rom.5:1;etc.)

And the fruit includes LOVE (Gal.5:22-23)...and love requires TORAH-OBEDIENCE (Dt.6:5,25;1Jn.5:3;Jn.14:15+Mt.5:19).

The fruit includes PEACE (Gal.5:22-23)...and peace is linked to LOVE for Torah (Ps.119:165), not opposition to Torah!

 

" And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh "

Awesome!  The flesh DISOBEYS Torah (Rom.8:7)....so "crucified the flesh" entails Torah-obedience!

After all, either you obey, or you don't.  And the flesh DISOBEYS.  So obey!

 

" For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. "

Sure!  Paul is DEAD to LAW#1 (given Rom.8:2).  Agreed.

That same Paul requires LAW #2 (2Ti.3:16;1Cor.7:19).

After all, Paul CONTINUES to serve Torah (Rom.7:25).

 

Gal.2:19-21?  That passage upholds FAITH, GRACE, and CHRIST.

FAITH is of TORAH (Mt.23:23;Dt.32:20;Dt. 30:14 cited at Rom.10:8, given Hab.2:4 cited at Gal.3:11, given Rom.2:13+Rom.5:1;etc.)

GRACE is given to the humble; humble people obey TORAH (Ps.25:9;Zep.2:3;Ex.33:13;Nu.12:3).

CHRIST requires all Torah (Mt.5:19) for all disciples of all nations (Mt.28:19-20).

And sure, righteousness does not come by faithless works of the law without grace.

That's why Paul says we are justified by LAW (Rom.2:13) + FAITH (Rom.5:1) + GRACE (Rom.3:24) TOGETHER.

Not law alone (Gal.5:4-5).

Not faith alone (says James 2:24).

Not grace alone (because the proper response to grace is to seek to know God and obey Torah, given Ex. 33:13).

Rather, ALL.

TOGETHER.

We don't just pick-and-choose the parts we like.

It's a package deal!

 

Mal.3:17-18?  YES!  We should SERVE God!  And those who serve God are those who OBEY Torah (Jos.22:5).  So let's obey!

By the way, Mal.3:4 has Jesus RESTORING the animal sacrifices of the Levites....in the future....exciting times to anticipate for our future!

 

" they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. "

Very true.  The faithless Israelites who rejected Christ were BAD....because they did NOT HAVE FAITH....they sought to establish their own righteousness by faithless works of Torah....that was REALLY BAD.  It still is.

So obey in FAITH!

 

" For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. (Rom 10:1-4)  "

Yes!  Christ is the GOAL (" τέλος "), not the termination, of the Torah.  After all, the Torah requires FAITH (Dt.32:20) in the PROPHET (Dt.18:15) who requires all Torah (Mt.5:19).

Torah points to Christ.  Christ points to Torah!

Torah upholds obedience for righteousness (Dt.6:5,25)...and Jesus applies this very context to you (Mt.22:37).

Paul agrees that Torah should correct your behavior in righteousness (2Ti.3:16).

Jesus requires Torah-obedience for righteousness, lest you not inherit the forthcoming kingdom (Mt.5:20).

And " τέλος " routinely does NOT mean termination...just check out it's usage in the LXX for proof.

Furthermore, Paul goes on to say that Torah-obedience (Dt.30:14) is the very substance of the faith he preaches (citing Dt.30:14 at Rom.10:8)....so make sure you don't ignore this important fact in Romans 10.

 

Well, thanks for bringing up these important passages!

LOT'S of great things in there....

 

blessings...and Happy Thanksgiving!

 

 

[BibleGuy]

7 hours ago, BeauJangles said:

And I assume you'll never give me other than an elusive answer here. 

Howdy!

I already stated that I have no idea about Jewish DNA...and your question regarding "Judaism" was ambiguous (given various definitions of JUDAISMS)...so I was hoping you'd clarify your question, so I could answer more precisely.

blessings...

 

[BibleGuy]

41 minutes ago, Still Alive said:

I wonder if he just thinks Putnam's arguments are "good enough to get the job done". 

Personally, I focus more on what Heiser is actually saying, himself. 

Not sure....but if Heiser thinks that....then it only confirms that Heiser doesn't understand that field of research.

Heiser does have some interesting things to say....I thought his observation that Paul might be referencing Enoch in Galatians was quite intriguing...

 

[BibleGuy]

42 minutes ago, Resurrection Priest said:

Nope.  When I said "we", I meant any one of the saved, regardless of DNA heritage.  The "CORPORATE" would include those of Levite/Aaronic heritage as well.  In the Kingdom, "there is neither Jew nor Gentile" (or Levite).  There is just one CORPORATE body of saved "Israel" - all of whom are made "priests of God and of Christ" regardless of former heritage. 

But again, you've just set forth an unjustified anti-corporate-interpretation, as I've defined and explained it.

 

"There is just one CORPORATE body of saved "Israel""

Yes, but EVERY INDIVIDUAL in that corporate body does NOT have the same role or function.

 

After all, there is just one church....but ALL INDIVIDUALS are not teachers (1Cor.12:29).

 

Likewise, there is only one REDEEMED Israel....but ALL Israelites are NOT Levites....only those of Zadok will be Levitical priests in the future (Eze.40:46;43:19;44:15;48:11).

 

"regardless of former heritage. "

Rather, heritage is REQUIRED through Zadok (Eze.40:46;43:19;44:15;48:11).

 

"In the Kingdom, "there is neither Jew nor Gentile" (or Levite). "

Sure there will still be Levites!  Look at all the future LEVITICAL prophecies for proof (Mal.3:4;Jer.33;Is.66;Dt.30:1-8;Is.61;Zec.14;Eze.40-47).

 

That same Paul said "I AM A JEW" (Ac.21:39;22:3)....so Jews obviously still existed in the New-Covenant era.

 

blessings...