The Great Tribulation What is it? When will it occur? What is its purpose?

[Still Alive]

On 3/22/2019 at 6:29 PM, JustPassingThru said:

Yes!!!

I've heard some say that every generation of the Church Age has been persecuted, so why shouldn't the last generation suffer persecution too, the real question to be asked is, ..why should the last church generation suffer the Wrath of the Lamb, their bridegroom, ...when the other generations suffered only the persecution from the World. 

This is why I'm a mid-tribulationist (3.5 years of tribulation, followed by the rapture, followed by 3.5 years of wrath of God on those left). But I'm not married to it. It's just an interesting thing to discuss sometimes. It's not as cut and dried as anyone seems to think it is. 

A lot of good stuff here:  http://drmsh.com/tag/tribulation/

[gordon7777]

18 minutes ago, NickyLouse said:

I believe the antichrist will come out of Magog (Turkey) (Ezekiel 38:2).

I believe that those who are beheaded in the tribulation are both those who believed prior to the tribulation but were not repentant in addition to those who come to believe during the tribulation.

I do not believe that the whole of the church will be at the marriage supper of the Lamb. There will be some believers locked out. They will go through the first half of the tribulation.

I agree. However, there will be some believers that will go through the first half of the tribulation.

 

I do not believe repentance is required for salvation - only the faith of God that is given to us by grace is required for salvation. To place any requirement upon men for salvation eliminates grace. How do you suppose that some people believe in earnest and trust that they are secure in Christ, but do not follow Him? To them He will respond 'I never knew you', but they will be saved as through fire (Matthew 7:21-23, 22:1-14, 25:1-30, 1 Corinthians 3:11-15). They will go through the first half of the tribulation while believers who follow will be sanctified and will be raptured before the tribulation as a firstfruit and enter the kingdom. The others will be killed in the tribulation or go into the millennial reign with the other survivors. We are saved by virtue of the fact that Jesus was sacrificed on our behalf. There is nothing for us to do. However, just as the priests who served in the temple had to wash at the brazen laver, we must also be washed with the Word and sanctified by our repentance in order to go into the holy place.

The answer is simple, and questioning words endlessly is not as good as salvation which is not saving our lives for ourselves but laying it down for others.

 

Nobody has placed any requirement on man for salvation, because even repentance itself is grace, you should know the scriptures a bit better.

 

2 Timothy 2:²⁵ In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;²⁶ And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

 

When Jesus says I never knew you, they do not know Him, and as for others who suffer loss, they build upon the foundation of Christ first. If they build something that is not the rock that is Christ, they suffer loss, what they did was not acceptable to the Lord. This is the purpose of chastening, to rebuke those who are not correct, and they find out that the temple of the Lord is Holy, and if they defile that temple Him shall God destroy, is this not simple enough for people ? These are the SAME workers of iniquity(defiling) that never knew Christ..

 

1 Corinthians 3:¹⁰ According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.¹¹ For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.¹² Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;¹³ Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.¹⁴ If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.¹⁵ If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.¹⁶ Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?¹⁷ If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

 

Nobody is saved who thinks they are, for the Gospel is not for the devils arrogance, confidence and highmindedness, he is not saved, but through all his believers insist they are.

All the talk of millenial reign and all things people go around in circles, is because they do not believe in giving their lives away, they re too busy talking about their own lives instead. Too funny, as it is a trap that works so well.

 

Oh look it is a future event in Matthew 22.

 

Matthew 22:³ And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.⁴ Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.⁵ But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:

 

No, it was not a future event at all, it is the excuses everybody makes now, why they do not leave their lives to follow Christ. Yuu have married a wife, you concentrated on that life. You have property, this was your main concern and love of your life. Jesus turns to all and then tells them, unless you forsake all you have, and hate the things you excuse yourself with for not following Christ with the whole mind heart soul and strength, you cannot be His disciple..

 

Luke 14:¹⁸ And they all with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused.¹⁹ And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused.²⁰ And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.²¹ So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind.²² And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room.²³ And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.²⁴ For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.²⁵ And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them,²⁶ If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.²⁷ And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

[JustPassingThru]

6 hours ago, Still Alive said:

This is why I'm a mid-tribulationist (3.5 years of tribulation, followed by the rapture, followed by 3.5 years of wrath of God on those left). But I'm not married to it. It's just an interesting thing to discuss sometimes. It's not as cut and dried as anyone seems to think it is. 

Brother, I won't argue, ...but if you are not married to it, ...can I ask you a question?

Was there ever a time in your walk with the Lord that you believed the Rapture of the Church came before the 7 year Tribulation?

Lord bless

[Still Alive]

9 hours ago, JustPassingThru said:

Brother, I won't argue, ...but if you are not married to it, ...can I ask you a question?

Was there ever a time in your walk with the Lord that you believed the Rapture of the Church came before the 7 year Tribulation?

Lord bless

Yes. I started out Assembly of God. my main mentor there taught a class on it and it was a foregone conclusion that Pre-Trib was the answer. Then I read a book with a ridiculous title that changed everything. It was called "Soon Coming World Changing Events as Fortold by God Almighty". 

It presented, in great detail, the mid-trib side and convinced me. I took this information to my mentor and he presented me with a white paper he had written on the subject. I was very excited to read it and change my mind, because who wouldn't want to be spared of the whole tribulation mess?

But his arguments were so weak and a "clutching at straws" that it confirmed for me the validity of the Mid-trib (really post trib, pre-wrath) even more. But this was over 40 years ago and I've modified my thinking much more now. The key is that I do not see it as a salvation doctrine and don't really care what people believe about it. I belive the mid-trib rapture (if there is one as we think about it at all) is the most likely rapture scenario, but more importantly, I believe that I need to watch and be aware for however it plays out. And the more familiar I am with the word of God and the stronger my relationship with Him, I know I'll have it covered no matter how it falls out.

So it's become a low priority issue for me, relevant to other aspects of my walk with Him.

[JustPassingThru]

3 hours ago, Still Alive said:

Yes. I started out Assembly of God. my main mentor there taught a class on it and it was a foregone conclusion that Pre-Trib was the answer. Then I read a book with a ridiculous title that changed everything. It was called "Soon Coming World Changing Events as Fortold by God Almighty". 

Uh huh..., thanks for being honest brother, ...what I hear you saying is, ...you started out being taught by the Holy Spirit and then switched over to being taught by a man who was your mentor, ...instead of Jesus Christ.

Like I said, I won't argue and like you said it's a non-essential subject,

...please, just consider my observation of what you said, ...I'm using a good listening skill,  ...to repeat back what the other person said in our own words, ...to make certain we understand what they said.

Love you bro, Lord bless and, ....I believe we're gonna see each other real soon and the only important subject before our eyes then will be our Lord Jesus Christ!

[Still Alive]

6 minutes ago, JustPassingThru said:

Uh huh..., thanks for being honest brother, ...what I hear you saying is, ...you started out being taught by the Holy Spirit and then switched over to being taught by a man who was your mentor, ...instead of Jesus Christ.

Like I said, I won't argue and like you said it's a non-essential subject,

...please, just consider my observation of what you said, ...I'm using a good listening skill,  ...to repeat back what the other person said in our own words, ...to make certain we understand what they said.

Love you bro, Lord bless and, ....I believe we're gonna see each other real soon and the only important subject before our eyes then will be our Lord Jesus Christ!

No, that is really not it.

I started being taught by a man and then another man offered me an alternative and I bothered to actually study the bible and the analysis by bible scholars, and prayed - and not just accept what someone told me. 

The same thing happened to me regarding hell about 10 years ago. I just believed what I was told, even though many parts of it didn't really jibe with my bible. And then I studied it and changed my opinion. 

I agree with seeing each other real soon. And I'm sincerely looking forward to that.:)

[Gentle-Warrior]

"I love" it" when people present their case based on presuppositions that are not truly based on God's word. Here is my question to prove what I'm  saying. Why do you suppose that there will be an end time (end of history) tribulation? Is it based on what God's word really teaches, or is it based on mere assumptions that cannot be proved biblically speaking? 

Remember one thing, if you are going to use Mat. 24 to prove your belief, you must prove that Jesus was talking about the end of history, meaning an event that had nothing to do with His disciples or what was going to take place some time in the near future.

 So, was Jesus talking to His disciples or was He talking over their heads, ignoring who He was addressing His points to which in my understanding, would mean plain deception? 

 

Edited October 14, 2019 by Gentle-Warrior

[Revelation Man]

On 3/22/2019 at 8:37 AM, angels4u said:

Observations

I receive several phone calls each year from people — some of them ministers — asking me if I think we are in the Tribulation yet. I always respond by telling them that when the Tribulation begins, the people who are on earth will not have to call anyone to find out for sure whether or not it has begun. The Tribulation will be a living hell with a degree of violence that is unparalleled in all of history.

The Bible gives us a lot of information about this horrible period of seven years that is fast approaching. The entire book of Zephaniah is devoted to it. In addition to many other Old Testament passages, like Isaiah 24, fourteen chapters in the book of Revelation focus on it (Revelation 6-19). But despite all this information, there are many myths concerning the Great Tribulation that circulate among Christians. For example, many argue that the first half of this time period will be peaceful and that only the second half will be characterized by intense warfare. Other misconceptions relate to the Antichrist and the Church.

This is an excellent overall sorta mini dissertation on the Tribulation. As I go through I will pick out a few places that we have differences because its the objective to study and come to truths, but I find many more pluses here that I agree with over all. I might add this as per Tribulation, I think we forget what Jesus' own words told us, thus we might lose sight of a few truths.

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

So Tribulation is with us always in this world, as Jesus told his disciples it would be, so we have to be very, very careful about proclaiming  this or that is what is absolutely meant by the 3.5 years of Greatest Ever Troubles as per what Jesus spoke to us about as the Greatest ever Troubles, and as per what Gabriel spoke unto Daniel about in Dan. 12 as per the Greatest Ever Troubles. 

I see it like this, we have continual tribulation, thus the Church Age Tribulation will be a 2000 some odd year tribulation, then after the Rapture there will be a 70th week Troubles like unto the Church Age and then there will be a 3.5 year Greatest Ever Troubles spoken of by Jesus/Gabriel/Daniel. I will use a demonstration to kind of show my approach/understanding.

==========================================================================----........

Double line is the Church Age. Single line is the 70th week, the dots are the Greatest Ever Troubles. 

All are Tribulation, the Church had many millions killed via the Church Age no doubt. The 70th weeks first 3.5 years will be troubles, because the Jews are being PUSHED/FORCED into Agreements {covenants} they might not be OK with, its a fake peace, but as Poland knows, a fake peace can be a troubled time also, because Hitler was maneuvering into a position where he could ultimately attack them, And of course the last 3.5 years will be a time of death and conquering of the world and of the 2/3 Jews who fail to repent, the 1/3 God protects in Petra. 

With all this in mind, now think about the Great Multitude in Heaven in Rev. 7:9-16, who are they that came out of the Great Tribulation ? Did they come out of the Greatest Ever Troubles {Impossible} or out of the 2000 year Church Age via the Rapture ? It can only be the latter.Those under the Altar are not judged until Rev. 20:4, then they live and reign with Christ 1000 years, but only the ones who failed to take the Mark of the Beast. 2000>7. Great can mean greatest troubles ever, or greater time period. Jesus tells those under the Altar at the 5th Seal that they must wait until all their brothers were killed in like manner as they were before they got vengeance. 

Your point on the Jews not accepting the Anti-Christ is spot on, I will go over the rest later. I needed to point out that I think the Great Tribulation can be Great in more than one way, it can mean the Greatest Ever Troubles and it can mean the Great Church Age Tribulation. I think Rev. 7:0-16 is speaking about the Church Age Saints who get raptured to Heaven. 

[JoeCanada]

On 3/22/2019 at 6:37 AM, angels4u said:

A Misconception Concerning the Church

Another popular misconception about the Tribulation is that the Church will go through it and suffer mightily at the hands of the Antichrist. This concept is based upon verses like Revelation 13:7 which says that the Antichrist will “make war with the saints.”

But I believe the saints referred to here are those who are saved during the Tribulation. There is going to be a great harvest of souls during the Tribulation. Some will be saved in response to the Rapture. Others will respond to the preaching of the Two Witnesses in Jerusalem (Revelation 11). The response of others will be stimulated by the Tribulation judgments which will motivate many to repent. Still others will respond to the special angel who will be sent by God near the end of the Tribulation to proclaim the Gospel to every living creature (Revelation 14:6-7). Many will be saved, but most of these will be martyred for their faith (Revelation 7:9-17).

There is no purpose for the Church during the Tribulation. This will be a time of God’s judgment upon the unbelieving Gentiles and Jews who have rejected God’s grace, love and mercy expressed in Jesus.

Some argue that the Church must go through the Tribulation to be purged or cleansed. But the true Church has already been purified by the blood of Jesus (Ephesians 5:25-27; 1 John 1:7; and Romans 8:1). The Tribulation is not a Protestant purgatory.

The symbolic imagery of the New Testament focuses on the Church as being the Bride of Christ. Is the Bridegroom going to beat up His Bride for seven years before He comes for her? I think not. The Bible says that Jesus is coming to deliver His Bride from the wrath that is to come (1 Thessalonians 1:10). Also, Revelation 19:8 and 14 pictures Jesus returning with His Church at the end of the Tribulation, indicating the Redeemed will be taken out of this world before the Tribulation begins.

Revelation focuses on the Church in its first three chapters. Beginning with chapter 4, there is no more mention of the Church during the entire period of the Tribulation. The Church is not referred to again until Revelation 22:16.

Hi  Angels4u,

I have a few problems with this interpretation.

I'll start with this one, because I have heard it so many times, " Revelation focuses on the Church in its first three chapters. Beginning with chapter 4, there is no more mention of the Church during the entire period of the Tribulation. The Church is not referred to again until Revelation 22:16."

I'll refer to this article from Eschatos Ministries, which explains this (fallacy) quite well:

Pretribulationism maintains that since the actual word “church” (ekklēsia) does not appear in chapters 4–21, but is mentioned many times before chapter 4, it is assumed then that the church will be raptured before the events of chapter 4. This is very bad argumentation that is made in popular books, but rejected even by scholarly pretribulationism. Nevertheless, it is often the popular arguments that are influential so I will address this here.

This form of argumentation is called the “word-concept” fallacy, an assumption that studying a word (or phrase) is the same as having studied the entire biblical concept. It is also known as the “concordance” method of interpretation: simply open up a concordance and finger down the page looking for usages of the word “church,” while excluding other terms that describe the church. It can be a beginning point for study, but word (or phrase) studies should certainly not end there. The problem with this method is that it does not take Scripture in a normal, natural, customary sense; hence, it is naive and completely ignores context. I will start with showing the absurdity of this argument by being absurd, followed by a few sensible responses.

First, it may be asked why would the mention of “church” occur at the beginning of Revelation, but not throughout the book? It is erroneous to think that a New Testament writer is required to mention the term “church” throughout his writings to establish the application to the church. Paul only mentioned the term “church” once in the first chapter of his epistle to the Galatians. Do not Galatians chapters 2–6 apply to the church? The same can be said of 2 Thessalonians; the term “church” is only mentioned in chapter one. And in Colossians, the term is mentioned in the first and last chapters of the book. Does not the body of the letter to the Colossians apply to the church? So this method consistently applied is senseless.

Second, the word “church” is absent from the books of Mark, Luke, John, 2 Timothy, Titus, 1 Peter, 2 Peter, 1 John, 2 John, and Jude. Does that mean those books do not pertain to the church? It is patently misguided to demand that the New Testament writers must only use the term “church” to discern if a passage applies to the church.

Third, the word “church” is absent from rapture passages: 1Thessalonians 4:13–17 and John 14:1–4. Following their logic, are we right to conclude that the church will not be raptured? Of course not! Further, by that reasoning, since the word “Israel” is not mentioned between Revelation 7:4 and 21:12, it must be raptured before Rev 7:4!

Fourth, the word “church” is absent from the heavenly scenes in Revelation 4–5, 21. But heaven is the one place we would expect to find the church where pretribulationism says it will be at that time (because of their allegorical interpretation that sees Revelation 4:1 representing the church being caught up). The word “church” is also absent from Revelation chapters 19–20. Will the church not participate in rejoicing in heaven and the marriage supper of the Lamb? Moreover, the Bride of Christ is found in Revelation 19:7 but the word “church” is never mentioned. Is the Bride then not the church? (cf. Rev 21:2!).

Fifth, nowhere in the book of Revelation does the use of the word “church” ever denote the Church in its totality nor in the sense of the faithful universal church. Every mention of church(es) in Revelation denotes historical local churches in first century Asia Minor. And Revelation is addressed to seven churches not just one, which explains why the term “church” is used frequently at the beginning of the book. (Incidentally, the apostle John in his gospel and epistles never used the term church in the sense of the universal church; instead, he exercised his literary freedom to employ other terms to denote believers who were part of the church.)

Sixth, who are the recipients of the book of Revelation? Revelation 1:1 says, “The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants (doulos) what must happen very soon” (Rev 1:1). The term used is “servants” (doulos). It will be the servants within the professing church who will endure persecution for their faith. The message is for them: Revelation 22:6 says, “Then the angel said to me, ‘These words are reliable and true. The Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, has sent his angel to show his servants what must happen soon’” (Rev 22:6). It is the servants/true believers/saints/the elect of God/those who hold to the testimony of Christ who will endure struggle and persecution and be ultimately victorious.

Seventh, the word “saints” is used 59 times in the New Testament to refer to a true believer in Christ, a member of the true church. For example, the apostle Paul, recalling his days when he persecuted the church, equates the church with saints (compare Phil 3:6 and Acts 26:10). Pretribulationism claims that the reference to saints in the book of Revelation is some special group of “tribulation saints.” This falsely creates a new class of Christians apart from the church. Pretribulationism would have us believe that the saints in Revelation 13:7, who are being persecuted by Antichrist, cannot be part of the church; but they fail to see that the saints who are described as the Bride of Christ in Revelation 19:8 are the church! This false distinction is indicative of a flawed theological system forcing itself upon Scripture to reach their preconceived conclusion.

 

 

 

[JoeCanada]

On 3/22/2019 at 6:37 AM, angels4u said:

Before we consider some of these myths and misconceptions, let’s familiarize ourselves with the concept of the Tribulation. Where does the idea come from, and what does it mean?

Hi angels4u,

Tribulation.......What does it mean?......good question.

In Greek, the term "great tribulation" is megali thlipsi

Megali (megas) means widespread. 

Thlipsi means oppression, affliction, tribulation, distress, straits

So "great tribulation" could be rendered "widespread persecution, tribulation". To say that "great tribulation" will be "more intense affliction/persecution" than we have previously seen in history.....well, how much more brutal can there be than boiling someone in oil, or beating them to death with sticks or whips or stones, or sawing a person in two, or cutting their babies out of them, or wrapping them in animal skins and feeding them to wild animals, or crucifixion!.....or......???

 

The word “tribulation” is a misunderstood term. On its own it means persecution or distress. The Bible never promises that Jesus will rescue believers from tribulation; on the contrary, Jesus has actually promised us that in this world Christians will endure tribulation.

In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world. (John 16:33)

In fact, Jesus takes this a step further; He tells us we are blessed when we are persecuted and that suffering for His sake is a privilege.

Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you (Matt. 5:11)

For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake (Phil. 1:29)

Scripture contains dozens of similar passages. Jesus’s best friends and most loyal followers were His disciples, yet He allowed all but one of them to be killed in a martyr’s death…that’s tribulation. And recently, faithful believers in the middle east who refused to deny Jesus were horribly beheaded by Isis; God did not rescue them from their tribulation. So, it is wrong to say that God would never allow Christians to be persecuted or martyred. He has permitted, is still permitting, and will permit even horrible persecution and suffering of His loyal followers. So we can conclude, and confidently say, that it isn’t suffering or tribulation that God has promised to keep Christians from…rather, it is God’s wrath (God’s punishment for unbelief) that the Bible promises Christians will be exempt from.

Tribulation is not "Wrath".