Struggling w/Book of Hebrews

[Christ's Free Servant]

Also helps to understand the context of both sections of books.  As with the Romans verses used to express that Shaul struggled with sin.  This is used many times to imply that even Shaul was a helpless sinner who can't help living in his old nature.

To sum up: with my mind, I am a slave of God's Torah; but with my old nature, I am a slave of sin's "Torah." Rom 7:25

He was speaking the way he commonly did.  Speaking in common language, like a child, so to be understood.  Verses 14-25 are just this.  He is not saying he lives in his old nature.  For one, this letter didn't have chapter breaks till many hudreds of years after the fact.  So if you read the VERY NEXT statments (Chapter 8 Living in the Spirit) you see Shaul defining a HUGE difference between those who live in the"old nature' and those who live in the "new" nature of the Spirit.

5 For those who identify with their old nature set their minds on the things of the old nature, but those who identify with the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 Having one's mind controlled by the old nature is death, but having one's mind controlled by the Spirit is life and shalom. 7 For the mind controlled by the old nature is hostile to God, because it does not submit itself to God's Torah - indeed, it cannot. 8 Thus, those who identify with their old nature cannot please God. 9 But you, you do not identify with your old nature but with the Spirit - provided the Spirit of God is living inside you, for anyone who doesn't have the Spirit of the Messiah doesn't belong to him.

12 So then, brothers, we don't owe a thing to our old nature that would require us to live according to our old nature. 13 For if you live according to your old nature, you will certainly die; but if, by the Spirit, you keep putting to death the practices of the body, you will live. 14 All who are led by God's Spirit are God's sons.

Now, in context, how do you figure Shaul was proclaiming he lived in his old nature and could not help doing so?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree! I just did a study on this recently and came to the same conclusion. Someone was using Paul's thoughts about the sin nature to justify Christians living in sin, so I researched it and came to pretty much the same conclusions as you. So many of us fall into the trap of interpreting scripture out of context, and then we get the wrong meaning. We should always look at the context in which a scripture is placed to get true understanding of what it is saying. It would solve a whole lot of misconceptions that are going on out there in the Christian world.

[Christ's Free Servant]

I don't have the time to look it up just now, as I have to leave for work (wasn't that part of the curse, by the way?  Work, I mean?  And aren't we supposed to be delivered from the curse?  Oh well, my creditors have a different view of the Scriptures I guess!  But I digress.......)

Anyhow......I believe the passage you cite is a Greek text which suggests a continuing lifestyle of sin, rather than our (admittedly 'all too often') slip-ups!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is where the confusion comes in to play, I believe. There is a difference between sinning as a believer and living in sin or living a sinful lifestyle. I John 2 suggests that we will sin, but that we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense - this is automatic. But, then it goes on throughout the book of I John to describe the kind of person who is genuinely in Christ. If someone claims to be in Christ and yet continues to live in sin, the book of I John states that person is a liar and is not a genuine believer in Jesus. Yes, we will sin, because we are sinners. But our desire should be to please God. We should not be willfully choosing to continually sin. I John seems to indicate that if that is the case, then we are lying when we say we know God. This is tough stuff and I believe we need to take it seriously. Too many people think they can pray a prayer of salvation and have their ticket into heaven and yet continue in sin. The word of God does not teach that. It is very strong the other direction, in fact.

[Christ's Free Servant]

I'm having a really, really hard time with this:

Hebrews 10: 26-27 *(from the Complete Jewish Bible)

For if we deliberately continue to sin after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, (27) but only the terrifying prospect of Judgment, of raging fire that will consume the enemies.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Cats,

You are not alone. Even the great theologians do not agree on the interpretation of this and other difficult passages like it. From what I've read, there can be three possible interpretations:

1. That, if after you become a believer, you deliberately continue sinning without regard for what Jesus did for you in freeing you from your sins, you are in danger of losing your salvation.

Many, many scriptures support this point of view, and although I believe this to be the exception to the rule, from what I have studied of scripture, I would have to believe this to be possible.

2. That this is talking about professing Christians who have not truly been regenerated. The fact that they "deliberately kept on sinning" after receiving the knowledge of the truth shows that they did not truly come to know Christ, but made a false profession of faith, perhaps out of ignorance since so many churches are now giving people the idea that all they have to do is pray a prayer and that they don't have to repent at all.

I believe this interpretation is the most likely possibility, though I must say there is much solid evidence for no. 1 and that we should not take that lightly.

3. It is a warning to immature believers that they must progress to maturity or else experience divine discipline. Many people hold to this argument, because they want to believe they are true believers and that if they continue sinning they will probably have to face some kind of consequences here on this earth, but that is it. It does not, according to this interpretation, impact the person's eternal security.

The Bible states that the Lord disciplines those he loves and chastises those who are his LEGITIMATE children, so we are all going to face God's discipline. Certainly if we are not living like we should, he is going to be on us like white on rice to try to get us to repent, but I don't think that the passage you mentioned is referring to this, so I would definitely list this as no. 3 possibility.

[Guest shiloh357]

I'm having a really, really hard time with this:

Hebrews 10: 26-27 *(from the Complete Jewish Bible)

For if we deliberately continue to sin after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, (27) but only the terrifying prospect of Judgment, of raging fire that will consume the enemies.

I'm in big trouble. I have sinned plenty since I became a Christian.

Oh, yes....I have to admit that in the past 10 years, I certainly have:

- lied, gossiped, been proud/haughty, been unkind, unforgiving, been impaired, lusted and been greedy.

Some areas were only on extremelyrare ocassion while other areas were terrible strongholds I've had to wrestle with.

I can NEVER say it wasn't "deliberate". Of COURSE it was deliberate. It didn't happen by accident.

When we sin, it's usually a deliberate act of self-will.

So who in the world can be saved? Who can be spared judgement?

I'M CONFUSED....

Am I the ONLY person here who's sinned since they were saved?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Cats, you need to allow the context of the passage to help you understand. He is talking about those who deliberately sin against the Messiah's redemption. He is talking about those who presumptuously and continuously sin against the spirit and against the work of Christ upon the cross. He is not talking about the foiables of human character to which we fall from time to time.

Hebrews 10 is a warning against apostasy. There remains sacrifice for these people seeing that there is but ONE sacrifce for sin, namely Jesus, and they have rejected it.

This is confirmed as you read down four verses later to verse 29. He is talking about those who have trodden underfoot the Son of God.

Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? Heb.10:29

THAT is the sin he is talking about.

[nebula]

. . . I have to leave for work (wasn't that part of the curse, by the way?  Work, I mean?  And aren't we supposed to be delivered from the curse?  Oh well, my creditors have a different view of the Scriptures I guess!  But I digress.......)

[nebula]

Cats, you need to allow the context of the passage to help you understand.  He is talking about those who deliberately sin against the Messiah's redemption.  He is talking about those who presumptuously and continuously sin against the spirit and against the work of Christ upon the cross.  He is not talking about the foiables of human character to which we fall from time to time.

Hebrews 10 is a warning against apostasy.  There remains sacrifice for these people seeing that there is but ONE sacrifce for sin, namely Jesus, and they have rejected it. 

This is confirmed as you read down four verses later to verse 29.  He is talking about those who have trodden underfoot the Son of God.

Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?  Heb.10:29

THAT is the sin he is talking about.

I'm not quite sure I understand exactly what you mean by this.

How does one "sin against the spirit and against the work of Christ upon the cross"?

[Tishri 1]

I don't have the time to look it up just now, as I have to leave for work (wasn't that part of the curse, by the way?  Work, I mean?  And aren't we supposed to be delivered from the curse?  Oh well, my creditors have a different view of the Scriptures I guess!  But I digress.......)

Anyhow......I believe the passage you cite is a Greek text which suggests a continuing lifestyle of sin, rather than our (admittedly 'all too often') slip-ups!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

exactly just like I said above, the subjects in this verse would never be anyone written in the Lambs book of life...only those who have no exuse, who have not repented by the Time of his comming .

[Tishri 1]

I'm having a really, really hard time with this:

Hebrews 10: 26-27 *(from the Complete Jewish Bible)

For if we deliberately continue to sin after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, (27) but only the terrifying prospect of Judgment, of raging fire that will consume the enemies.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Cats,

You are not alone. Even the great theologians do not agree on the interpretation of this and other difficult passages like it. From what I've read, there can be three possible interpretations:

1. That, if after you become a believer, you deliberately continue sinning without regard for what Jesus did for you in freeing you from your sins, you are in danger of losing your salvation.

Many, many scriptures support this point of view, and although I believe this to be the exception to the rule, from what I have studied of scripture, I would have to believe this to be possible.

2. That this is talking about professing Christians who have not truly been regenerated. The fact that they "deliberately kept on sinning" after receiving the knowledge of the truth shows that they did not truly come to know Christ, but made a false profession of faith, perhaps out of ignorance since so many churches are now giving people the idea that all they have to do is pray a prayer and that they don't have to repent at all.

I believe this interpretation is the most likely possibility, though I must say there is much solid evidence for no. 1 and that we should not take that lightly.

3. It is a warning to immature believers that they must progress to maturity or else experience divine discipline. Many people hold to this argument, because they want to believe they are true believers and that if they continue sinning they will probably have to face some kind of consequences here on this earth, but that is it. It does not, according to this interpretation, impact the person's eternal security.

The Bible states that the Lord disciplines those he loves and chastises those who are his LEGITIMATE children, so we are all going to face God's discipline. Certainly if we are not living like we should, he is going to be on us like white on rice to try to get us to repent, but I don't think that the passage you mentioned is referring to this, so I would definitely list this as no. 3 possibility.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That makes Salvation a little shaky especially for the new believer who will stumble and fall many times while learning to walk with the Lord.

No, It has nothing to do with you if you are a Believer learning God's ways...relax...learn of Him...repent when you sin, ask and pray for understanding of His ways....ask and pray for deliverance when you have a serious sin that is hard to overcome...but don't let your salvation rest in your ability, only in His Ability .

If you are a rebellious person to God, who is always fighting Him and His Commandments...Defaming God's Character, making light/void of His Word, causing others to hate Him...then I would worry......No Worries!

[Guest shiloh357]

Cats, you need to allow the context of the passage to help you understand.

[visionary]

This work is His, for by Himself he will purge our sins, by the work of the Holy Spirit, they shall be cleansed out of our nature, out of our hearts, and out of our lives.

Hebrews 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Messiah, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge you from dead works to serve the living God?

Heb 10:1-2"...no more conscience of sins." We know that this has yet to occur for we are all still very conscience of our sins and sinfulness.