Rapture

[Pax]

I often times hear Protestant, including my mother, talk of the inpending "Rapture". I would like to hear some ideas from various Protestants on this site of what their idea of Rapture is. From what I understand there are various types of Rapture being debated amongst Protestant circles. So basically what I'm asking is, what do you mean some of us will be Raptured into heaven?

[Trust & Obey]

The "rapture" is a biblical doctrine found in 1 Thes. 4:

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

The word "rapture" does not exist in the english version of the Bible. But, it does exist in the Latin Vulgate in the form of rapturos. It literally means "to take by force." In the KJV it is translated "caught up."

In the passage above Paul clearly taught that some believers will not die a physical death. A generation of believers will be transformed "in the blink of an eye" into their heavenly bodies.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep (die a physical death), but we shall all be changed (into our heavenly bodies),

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The debate isn't really whether or not it is going to happen. The debate is about when it is going to happen.

I hold the position that it happens before the Great Tribulation begins. There are many, many reasons for this and it's late so I don't want to get too deep into it. But, one thing I'll point out is what Paul says above in 1 Thes. 4:18. Immediately after telling the Thessalonian church this he says "Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

The idea of the rapture is supposed to be "comforting." If the rapture happens at the end of the Great Tribulation, where is the comfort? How comforting is it to go throught the Tribulation and then get raptured when it is all over? How comforting is it to know that you are going to experience the bowls, vials, and trumpet judgments? If you are post-trib then you do not have any comfort from the promise to be caught up, and you will sense this any time you talk with a post-tribber they are almost "anti-rapture" to a passion. And, with good reason, for if you believe you will have to endure the worst 3.5 years of human history then the rapture is 3.5 years too late.

This is a topic of great interest to me and I've put in a lot of time studying the issue. It is an exciting doctrine in these end times.

You can go into the Eschatology forum and see 3 pinned threads there about the rapture. A thread for each of the 3 main views... Pre-trib (the most popular and, might I add, biblically accurate, and VERY comforting), mid-trib (still comforting), post-trib (not comforting in the least).

[gypc]

2 Thes 2:1Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, 2not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. 3Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for (that day will not come) until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

In other words.....we're gonna see some stuff before he comes.

[jc49]

I often times hear Protestant, including my mother, talk of the inpending "Rapture".  I would like to hear some ideas from various Protestants on this site of what their idea of Rapture is.  From what I understand there are various types of Rapture being debated amongst Protestant circles.  So basically what I'm asking is, what do you mean some of us will be Raptured into heaven?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Pax,( Pax Christi I presume),SHALOM to you here some links to THE RAPTURE that I hope will help you to study the subject:

http://www.raptureready.com/

http://www.rapturealert.com/

http://www.lwbc.co.uk/rapture_of_church.htm

God bless you

MARANATHA!

[Trust & Obey]

2 Thes 2:1Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, 2not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. 3Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for (that day will not come) until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

In other words.....we're gonna see some stuff before he comes.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is a common misunderstanding with those who do not hold the pre-trib view.

The "Day of the Lord' and the rapture of the church are 2 different things. The passage above speaking of "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" is in reference to the 2nd Coming of Christ. It is important to note that during the 2nd Coming Jesus returns with His Church to the earth!

Here is the view of Christ's 2nd Coming from the book of Revelation:

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

You see, Christ returns with His Bride at the 2nd Coming, He isn't coming for His bride. And, this is in perfect accordance with Jewish custom, as my Jewish brothers and sisters on this board will affirm.

In Jewish custom, a young man would build an addition to his father's house for him and his bride-to-be. After he finished building it his father would give him permission by sounding a trumpet the man (bridegroom) would go to fetch his woman (bride). After they were married, the bridegroom and bride would go off into the newly constructed bride chamber for 7 days. At the end of 7 days the Bridegroom would bring his Bride out to meet the rest of the family and community.

This has HUGE significance. Because, Jesus is our Bridegroom and we are His Bride. Just like in Jewish custom, Jesus has gone to prepare a place for us:

Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Jesus is preparing a place for us. Soon, Jesus will come and "receive us unto Himself." This will happen at the beginning of the Tribulation period and we, the Church, will be off the the Lord for... 7 years.... just like in Jewish custom. Oh, you may say, I thought Jewish custom was for 7 days??? True, but remember:

Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

God works in sevens. Seven days in a week. Jewish calendars operate by "weeks of years," or groups of 7. Similar to our "decades" which consist of 10 years.

So, after we are off with our Lord for 7 years he will then emerge from Heaven with us (Rev 19:11-14) to "show us off to the community (in this case, the world)," just like in Jewish tradition.

I could write about the pre-trib rapture for hours one end. But, I'll leave you with a few examples, or types of the rapture in the Bible.

In the book of Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego are forced to go through the fiery furnace. And, indeed they do go through it and God preserves them in it.

Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego become an OT picture, or type, of Israel being preserved through the Tribulation.

But, where is Daniel in all of this? Daniel is mysteriously absent during this very significant time. Daniel indeed is absent. And, he (Daniel) is a picture, or type, or the Church being absent during the Great Tribulation (GT).

Another picture we are given of this...

In the flood, Noah was sealed in the ark and preserved through the period of God's judgment of the earth. Noah becomes a type/picture of Israel being preserved through the GT.

But, where is the Church's picture of not being present during God's judgment (in this case, it was the flood).

Gen 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

Just before the flood came upon the earth in Gen. chap 7, God miraculously "translates" Enoch before ever dying!

Enoch is a type and picture of the Church being "raptured" or "taken" by God before judment.

Remember guys/gals, we are never told to watch for Antichrist, we are told to be on the lookout for Jesus Christ. If Jesus doesn't come for His church until AFTER the GT, then there is no sense of urgency and expectancy, for it that were true we could simply count the days until the end of the GT that Daniel gives us.

Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Dan 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

The idea that "Jesus could come at any time" is an idea that Jesus conveyed all throughout His ministry.

Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Mat 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

Mat 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Mat 24:45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

Mat 24:46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

...

Mat 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

...

Mar 13:33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.

Mar 13:34 For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.

Mar 13:35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:

Mar 13:36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.

Mar 13:37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

...

Luk 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

Luk 21:35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

A quick note of mention here. Jesus says to be sure not to get weighed down with drunkenness and cares of this life so that His return for His Church is a surprise to us. My question: In the GT it will be a time of suffering and turmoil for all. God will be pouring out His judgments... do you really think it would be possible during this horrendous time to be concerned with "cares of this life?"

Obviously, the phrase Jesus used of "lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life" conveys the idea that it will be "business as usual."

Finally, it says "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

Why would Jesus tell us to pray that we "may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass" if there is no way to escape it all?

[Pax]

Maybe some of you can help me with this one question. When did people first start talking about the Rapture as being something in the Bible?

[gypc]

Trust & Obey.........be open and read that passage of scripture again. You will find that Paul is calling the day of the Lord and us being gathered to him the same thing.

2 Thes 2:1Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him,(((((((((This is his topic of discussion))))))) we ask you, brothers, 2not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the(((((((( day of the Lord)))))))))) has already come. 3Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for (that day will not come)...What day? Go back to verse 1....because that is the point of reference.......it is easy understanding.

until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

Pax!!!!

In early 1830, Margaret McDonald, a 15 year old Scottish Girl had visions that included a Secret Rapture of believers before the appearance of the Antichrist. Edward Irving (1792-1834) her Scottish Presbyterian pastor and forerunner of the Pentecostal and Charismatic movements, attended prophecy conferences that began in Dublin Ireland in that same year, 1830, at Powerscourt Castle. There he promoted the doctrine of the Secret Rapture.

John Nelson Darby (1800-1882), a minister of the Church of Ireland, later became a member of the Plymouth Brethren and also promoted a Secret Rapture after attending the same Powerscourt Bible Prophecy meeting in 1830 where he learned of Margaret McDonald's vision. He visited Margaret McDonald at her home in Port Glasgow, Scotland, then later visited America several times where his Secret Rapture theology was quite well accepted.

The writings of John Darby greatly influenced Cyrus Scofield (1843-1921) who incorporated this doctrine in the notes of his Scofield Reference Bible, first published by Oxford University Press in 1909. One million copies were printed by 1930, firmly establishing this Futurist interpretation in the Bible schools and denominations of the United States in the 20th Century.

But it did not start there!!!! The Catholic church started this false teaching in 1517 and the same year made it illegel to publish books (including the Bible and made it illegel to preach any other doctrine besides the catholic doctrine.

There was a teaching that the catholic church would be the false church in the book of Rev.......so they did this to counter. Also started the tithe law and pergatory lie around the same time.

Peace

[Pax]

Pax!!!!

In early 1830, Margaret McDonald, a 15 year old Scottish Girl had visions that included a Secret Rapture of believers before the appearance of the Antichrist. Edward Irving (1792-1834) her Scottish Presbyterian pastor and forerunner of the Pentecostal and Charismatic movements, attended prophecy conferences that began in Dublin Ireland in that same year, 1830, at Powerscourt Castle. There he promoted the doctrine of the Secret Rapture.

John Nelson Darby (1800-1882), a minister of the Church of Ireland, later became a member of the Plymouth Brethren and also promoted a Secret Rapture after attending the same Powerscourt Bible Prophecy meeting in 1830 where he learned of Margaret McDonald's vision. He visited Margaret McDonald at her home in Port Glasgow, Scotland, then later visited America several times where his Secret Rapture theology was quite well accepted.

The writings of John Darby greatly influenced Cyrus Scofield (1843-1921) who incorporated this doctrine in the notes of his Scofield Reference Bible, first published by Oxford University Press in 1909. One million copies were printed by 1930, firmly establishing this Futurist interpretation in the Bible schools and denominations of the United States in the 20th Century.

But it did not start there!!!! The Catholic church started this false teaching in 1517 and the same year made it illegel to publish books (including the Bible and made it illegel to preach any other doctrine besides the catholic doctrine.

There was a teaching that the catholic church would be the false church in the book of Rev.......so they did this to counter. Also started the tithe law and pergatory lie around the same time.

Peace

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So let me get this right, this notion of "The Rapture" is only 175 years old? And it came from a 15 year old girl who had a vision? I thought all a Protestant needed to know was in the Bible? Why wasn't the Rapture discovered in the Bible way earlier than that?????

I am not aware of any Catholic Church teachings on the Rapture??? You make a claim that the Catholic Church started this false teaching in 1517? You also make a claim that the Catholic Church made it illegal to preach any other doctrine. Where do you get that? Doesn't the Bible ask everyone to tithe 10%? Puragatory has always been taught by the Church, but was defined by the coucil of Trent and Florence.

[ayin jade]

I think the part about 175 yrs and a girl is supposed to be in reference to the pre - trib rapture, not rapture in general. Even that "history" might not be true. Ive heard others who have said that has been around for longer and came about by something else.

[Trust & Obey]

Trust & Obey.........be open and read that passage of scripture again. You will find that Paul is calling the day of the Lord and us  being gathered to him the same thing.

2 Thes 2:1Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him,(((((((((This is his topic of discussion))))))) we ask you, brothers, 2not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the(((((((( day of the Lord)))))))))) has already come. 3Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for (that day will not come)...What day? Go back to verse 1....because that is the point of reference.......it is easy understanding.

until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

gypc, thanks for responding. I am open to the discussion and any points that you make. I do understand that there are different views with certain legitimacy to the mid and post-trib views.

But, it is important to note that the post-trib view and a HUGE fundamental flaw in it. Namely, that the GT period is that of God's wrath being poured out onto a Christ-rejecting world. It is the Lamb of God, Jesus Christ our Bridegroom, Who pours out the judgment. It is His fury being uleashed.

Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Rev 6:17 For the great day of his (God's) wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Why is this important to note? Because, we are not appointed to wrath!

1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Remember, we are the Bride of Christ. Why would Christ pour out His wrath on us, too?!?!

Remember, and this is what it all boils down to... God will not judge the righteous with the wicked.

In the passage below God clearly says that He will not destroy the righeous with the wicked. Abraham even goes as far as to say that to do so would be "wrong." And, God did not correct Abraham on that assertion.

Gen 18:23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?

Gen 18:24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?

Gen 18:25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

Gen 18:26 And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.

Gen 18:27 And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes:

Gen 18:28 Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it.

Gen 18:29 And he spoke unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do it for forty's sake.

Gen 18:30 And he said unto him, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: Peradventure there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there.

Gen 18:31 And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for twenty's sake.

Gen 18:32 And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake.

If God would not destroy the righteous with the wicked THEN, then surely He won't destroy the righteous with the wicked NOW.

This is a consistent theme throughout scripture.

In each of God's recorded judgments on the wickedness (Noah and the Flood, Sodom & Gomorrah), God always uses the same order of business:

1) Warns the righteous people about the coming judgment (Genesis 6:13-22; Genesis 19:12-15).

2) Ensures that the righteous are safely out of harm's way (Genesis 7:1-16; Genesis Genesis 19:16-22).

3) Once the righteous are safe, then, and only then, does judgment come.

An interesting observation is found in the account of Sodom. In Genesis 19:22 the angel of the Lord specifically tell Lot that he cannot bring judgment until Lot is safe. God would not allow the judgment of Sodom until Lot was safe... even when it was against Lot's will!

Gen 19:16 And while he lingered, the men laid hold upon his hand, and upon the hand of his wife, and upon the hand of his two daughters; the LORD being merciful unto him: and they brought him forth, and set him without the city.

You could say that they were all "raptured" out of Sodom!

Gen 19:17 And it came to pass, when they had brought them forth abroad, that he said, Escape for thy life; look not behind thee, neither stay thou in all the plain; escape to the mountain, lest thou be consumed.

Gen 19:18 And Lot said unto them, Oh, not so, my Lord:

Gen 19:19 Behold now, thy servant hath found grace in thy sight, and thou hast magnified thy mercy, which thou hast showed unto me in saving my life; and I cannot escape to the mountain, lest some evil take me, and I die:

Gen 19:20 Behold now, this city is near to flee unto, and it is a little one: Oh, let me escape thither, (is it not a little one?) and my soul shall live.

Gen 19:21 And he said unto him, See, I have accepted thee concerning this thing also, that I will not overthrow this city, for the which thou hast spoken.

Gen 19:22 Haste thee, escape thither; for I cannot do any thing till thou be come thither. Therefore the name of the city was called Zoar.

Do you see how the angel says "for I cannot do any thing till thou be come thither."

It wasn't that he would not, rather he could not.

God will not judge the righteous with the wicked. He never has and He never will. He didn't then, and He won't now.

Now, some may say, "didn't Jesus say that in the world you will have tribulation?"

Joh 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

There is a BIG difference between the "tribulation of the world," which is nothing more than persecution of the world for being a follower of Jesus, and the "Great Tribulation period of God where He is pouring out His wrath."

The "tribulation" that Jesus speaks of is specifically referring to what we will receive from the world. We know this because Jesus said that in John 16:33 right after saying this to them:

Joh 15:18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.

Joh 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

Joh 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.

Joh 15:21 But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me.

So, Jesus plainly says that the persecution will be from "the world."

As we have seen, the Great Tribulation is God's wrath, it is NOT the persecution of the world.

1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ

Amen, Hallelujah!