Rapture

[Trust & Obey]

Pax!!!!

In early 1830, Margaret McDonald, a 15 year old Scottish Girl had visions that included a Secret Rapture of believers before the appearance of the Antichrist. Edward Irving (1792-1834) her Scottish Presbyterian pastor and forerunner of the Pentecostal and Charismatic movements, attended prophecy conferences that began in Dublin Ireland in that same year, 1830, at Powerscourt Castle. There he promoted the doctrine of the Secret Rapture.

John Nelson Darby (1800-1882), a minister of the Church of Ireland, later became a member of the Plymouth Brethren and also promoted a Secret Rapture after attending the same Powerscourt Bible Prophecy meeting in 1830 where he learned of Margaret McDonald's vision. He visited Margaret McDonald at her home in Port Glasgow, Scotland, then later visited America several times where his Secret Rapture theology was quite well accepted.

The writings of John Darby greatly influenced Cyrus Scofield (1843-1921) who incorporated this doctrine in the notes of his Scofield Reference Bible, first published by Oxford University Press in 1909. One million copies were printed by 1930, firmly establishing this Futurist interpretation in the Bible schools and denominations of the United States in the 20th Century.

But it did not start there!!!! The Catholic church started this false teaching in 1517 and the same year made it illegel to publish books (including the Bible and made it illegel to preach any other doctrine besides the catholic doctrine.

There was a teaching that the catholic church would be the false church in the book of Rev.......so they did this to counter. Also started the tithe law and pergatory lie around the same time.

Peace

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So let me get this right, this notion of "The Rapture" is only 175 years old? And it came from a 15 year old girl who had a vision? I thought all a Protestant needed to know was in the Bible? Why wasn't the Rapture discovered in the Bible way earlier than that?????

Totally irrelevant. The book of 1 Thes. was written around 51A.D and it is in there.

The fact that it has only recently (relatively speaking) come to the forefront in no way diminished the accuracy of the promise. Remember, not all things in the Bible are revealed right away:

Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

[gypc]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So let me get this right, this notion of "The Rapture" is only 175 years old? And it came from a 15 year old girl who had a vision? I thought all a Protestant needed to know was in the Bible? Why wasn't the Rapture discovered in the Bible way earlier than that?????

I am not aware of any Catholic Church teachings on the Rapture??? You make a claim that the Catholic Church started this false teaching in 1517? You also make a claim that the Catholic Church made it illegal to preach any other doctrine. Where do you get that? Doesn't the Bible ask everyone to tithe 10%? Puragatory has always been taught by the Church, but was defined by the coucil of Trent and Florence.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[jc49]

I often times hear Protestant, including my mother, talk of the inpending "Rapture".

[Pax]

Qypc, (Brian)

I am a convert to Catholicism that grew up Baptist. So I have many friends who are Protestant, including my family. I enjoy talking about theology, especially apologetics. I also agree that we are all trying to get to heaven, and we should try to help as many others get there as we can. With all of that said, I have to question your knowledge of the Catholic Church. I often times hear Protestant make bold statements about how horrible the Catholic Church is. I too bought into this when I was growing up, but later realized how I had been guided by ignorance. You talk about the Spainish Inqusitions as being a brutel time for Jews and Protestants, which I have on doubt that there were wrong doings done by Catholics in the name of the Church. Was this right. No. But I can point to Catholics being killed by Protestants in England. King Henry VIII killed many Catholics after passing a law making himself head of the Church of England. So we can both point to abuses made, by both Protestants and Catholics.

I also need to clear up a couple of other misconceptions you have made about the Catholic Church. We don't worship Mary or the Saints we honor them and ask them to pray for us. Much like I would pray for you if you ask me to. Purgatory, honoring Mary and Saints are all things that have been taught since the beginning of the Church. It's just that they were defined later in Councils. So when you state that these traditions were started later, then you are wrong. The correct way to state this is that these traditions were defined as formal doctrine at certain councils. There was no reason to do this earlier because no one questioned these traditions. As far as tithing goes, I was even told as a Baptist to give 10% to the Church. It only makes sense, someone has to pay to keep the lights on and pay workers to keep the church functioning. In our case we have a Catholic elementary, and high school. That takes alot of money to pay staff and so forth. The other point of tithing is to show that God comes before material things. Many people give more than 10%, and should especially if they are wealthy and can afford to. As for the Rapture, I have look at the websites and will have to tell you I don't believe that there is any basis for the Rapture. So you point to a couple of verses in the Bible and now we are to believe in the Rapture. And Protestants don't even agree on this issue. I will ask this to you Brian, where is the truth? Who has the authority? Yes, I know God does, but did he leaves us here on earth to be lead by thousands of different groups of leaders all teaching something different?

[gypc]

Hey Pax, thanks for being kind. It makes me sad when people on this or any other christian website have to bite and devour eachother just to prove a point. Kool!!

The truth is there in the Word of God, the Bible. After a few hundred years many different groups began seperating. They wanted to establish what they believe. So they formed councils to interpret the scripture. Some believed that the word never changes and some believed these councils should always meet and adjust to the needs of the church and the changing times.

The bottem line is.................you and I have the same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead.

Start with the Bible and believe it then compare all other teaching to what you know of the Bible. If it contridicts scripture........throw it out. It's that simple.

In his love,

Brian

[Pax]

Brian,

I would like you to think about several things, but we will start with one for now. Correct me if I am wrong, but you believe in Sola Scriptora? Basically all you need to know is in the Bible. How did we get the Bible? How many years was it until the Bible was completed? What Church or denomination had the only true Bible used at the time? Where did your Protestant Bible come from?

[Trust & Obey]

Brian,

I would like you to think about several things, but we will start with one for now.  Correct me if I am wrong, but you believe in Sola Scriptora?  Basically all you need to know is in the Bible.  How did we get the Bible?  How many years was it until the Bible was completed?  What Church or denomination had the only true Bible used at the time?  Where did your Protestant Bible come from?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Pax, this is an interesting discussion to follow, but it seems like anytime a RC cannot substantiate their position from scripture they attempt to gain extra-biblical favor through various means. I wouldn't credit the RCC with getting out the word of God, if that is where you're headed.

The doctrine of the rapture is most certainly taught in the Bible as I have laid out in numerous places and fashions. Why is it that you are rejecting what the Word has to say?

[Pax]

Truth and Obey: No Catholic or Protestant can't totally substantiate their postition with just scripture. It takes scripture plus tradition, and even this is stated in the Bible. The weakest link in the Protestant argument is Sola Scriptora? If you believe that the Bible holds all the information you need to make it to heaven then how do you explain:

2 Thessalonians 2:15 "Therefore, Brethran stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or epistle."

Right hear in your Bible it tells you to keep the traditions you were taught, by word (oral traditions) or by epistle (scripture).

John 21:25 "And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suspose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen."

This passage points out logical sense. Not everything Jesus did is written down, some of it was passed down with oral tradition. Do you think someone followed Jesus around 24 hours a day with a lap top computor and wrote everything down he did. There is no way the Bible could contain all that information. The Bible itself was written through oral tradition. I would also pose this question to you, why would Jesus say that he would leave us a Church?? Why not just say here's the Bible and that's all you need?? These are very straight forward questions.

[Tari]

What if everyone who believes in the true church pre tribulation rapture have all been deceived? What if the unrighteous are taken up first? Isn't it very dangerous to ever assume that you will be going to Heaven? As far as I know from reading the word of God in the Bible we need to remain very watchful for the visible return of Christ. I believe every day in this world is a trial of our faith, and those who remain strong until the end are blessed!!!

[Pax]

Tari,

It looks like you joined today, so welcome. I am one of the Catholic guys on here who debates all the Protestants. I don't believe in the Rapture and eventually I will make that point of why the Rapture is nothing more than a few people taking a coulpe of verses out of the Bible and making something up. It sounds really cool, and it has made for good book sales (left behind series) but the Rapture has no basis. You are exactly right, a person should never assume that they are going straight to heaven, or as my Protestant friends would say "saved." You sound like you have it figured out, good job.