ROMANS 2:28 THE CHURCH IS NOT ISRAEL

[Joulre2abba]

16 minutes ago, Betha said:

Can I explain here that 1) the Jews are not the only people of Israel....Jacob had 12 sons ALL of whom are Israel, just not known today as they are still in spiritual captivity (punishment from God for sabbath-breaking 2 Kgs ch 17.) 2) People from all nations are now accepted by God if they DO right Acts 10v35, TURNING to the LORD/accepting Yashua who died for them and was also raised for them a Jew AND an Israelite..   Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today and for ever ..... .thus all who accept HIM as He WAS, IS and EVER WILL BE are  of spiritual ISRAEL who ONLY will be future Kings and Priests. 

Your words are according to what teaching you heard and accepted as God's truth. However, it's not God's truth. If it were, then all church denominations would be preaching it.

The entire chapter 17 in 2 Kings does not mention any sabbath-breaking as a reason why God punished them. What it does mention is that they worshiped the pagan gods, sacrificed their children to them, built idols in the groves, etc.

The new testament says that all gentiles (nations) are now accepted by God if they believe in His Son whom He sent as the Lamb of God that takes away all their sin which they committed while sinners.

The doing what is right occurs after salvation, Jms.2:17.

The experience of salvation, nor the doing what is right.. does not change a gentile into an Israelite. The phrase "spiritual Israel" has no support in scripture. The only claim for the gentiles is that of a wild branch grafted into the Olive tree. It is always the case that a wild branch could just as well not be compatible with the host tree. Thus Peter thought that what God gave to the Jews was not for the gentiles.. But only God made it possible.

The gentiles share in the same spiritual means of salvation through Christ that the first disciples, apostles and all Jews experienced.

The gentiles also share in the callings. But the gentiles do not have share in being called Israel.

The gentile Christians will always be gentiles.. even as Messianic Jews do not become gentile Christians.

You cannot possibly think that you are explaining to me what the word of God says. You are simply explaining to me what you believe.

[douge]

9 hours ago, Joulre2abba said:

Which Gentiles? .. I'm surprised that you think that there's a difference. If you think that there is a difference, then you are reading something into it that isn't there in the scriptures.

Rms.9:24-26 is applied to both the Messianic Jews and the Gentiles... likewise is 1 Cor.12:27; Eph.5:30. .. for all in Christ are the children of God, and therefore all are in and of the body of Christ.

Rms.10:12 "For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him."

If you are thinking that what I post is because my position is that the Church is Israel.. I do not believe that. The Bible states that the gentiles have share in the inheritance of the saints (the Jews). That share does not make the gentiles "Israel".

The Bible says that we gentiles are a wild branch grafted in to the Olive tree. So in that we share in the callings that God gave to the Jews. Such as being a priesthood under the leadership of The High Priest.

Hi

I did not get the impression that you think the church is Israel.

There is a difference in Gentiles:

Gentiles that believed by Peter and the eleven

Gentiles that believed by Paul

Here is an example of Gentiles who believed Peter....they are part of the believing remnant of Israel...they are new testament saints 

Acts 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

These are the Gentiles (the new testament Gentile believers not the body of Christ Gentile believers) Paul wrote about in Romans 9:24-33    Romans 10:12 (Romans 10:19 Jews and Gentiles are the foolish nation)    Romans 11:13        Romans 11:17 The Gentiles were grafted into the good olive tree of Israel...the broken off branches is unbelieving Jews...the Jewish new testament believers are the good olive tree that bears fruit.

Edited May 3, 2019 by douge

[douge]

8 hours ago, Firm Foundation said:

But a gentile could be circumcised and keep the law and become part of Israel.  Ruth and Rahab became part of Israel through faith.

Hi

You are right!!!     I copied a response I gave someone else for you.

Here is an example of Gentiles who believed Peter....they are part of the believing remnant of Israel...they are new testament saints 

Acts 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

These are the Gentiles (the new testament Gentile believers not the body of Christ Gentile believers) Paul wrote about in Romans 9:24-33    Romans 10:12 (Romans 10:19 Jews and Gentiles are the foolish nation)    Romans 11:13        Romans 11:17 The Gentiles were grafted into the good olive tree of Israel...the broken off branches is unbelieving Jews...the Jewish new testament believers are the good olive tree that bears fruit.

[Co - heir in Christ]

   I respectfully disagree w/ you Douge. Some of the reasons are among some of the Scriptures you've quoted, so I won't go too much into that stuff, as it's obvious that we just see those Scriptural passages differently.

   I do believe that the church, including Jews who've accepted Yeshua/Jesus as the Messiah, is spiritual Israel. Gentiles who've come to Christ are the wild olive branches grafted into the tree of Israel (we are borne by the root, but part of the same tree). Rom. 11: 11 - 24 goes into all of this.

   I agree that the gentile church has not "replaced" Israel. The Word is clear that Israel is God's chosen people forever, and history confirms the Word on that. Paul encouraged early converts to provide for the church in Jerusalem (who were mainly, if not completely, Jews) since it was only fitting that they should look out for the material needs of the ones whose spiritual blessings they'd been made partakers of (not verbatim). The nation of Israel will never be stripped of it's prophetic future, or of God's promises towards it (and it's amazing how many of those prophecies've already come true), and it hasn't been replaced.

   I agree, too, that it's not the outward things that truly make one a member of Israel, but the inward.

   I believe we are being made into priests and kings, under the One Perfect High Priest/King, based on Rev. 5: 9 - 10., and also based on my own experiences since I've come to know God. God is always teaching me to look out for others around me. Indeed, He holds me partially responsible (since He's revealed a lot to me) for my general environment and the people in it (especially if those people don't know God yet), since it's my duty to help others however I can, e.g., materially (If possible), praying for them, having compassion on them and forgiving them when they wrong me, witnessing to them, and potentially instructing them. He's always teaching me to be more like Him (and I've got a long way to go), to sacrifice myself and my ego to help others, just like a priest is supposed to look after his flock. Sometimes it can be wearying (even Moses complained to God about the burden of being responsible for so many people, so God poured His Spirit out on other leaders to share/distribute the burden).

   I agree that believers are the children of Abraham, but I, personally, don't think that negates believers being spiritual members of Israel as well.

   When the New Jerusalem is described, the 12 gates around the perimeter are labelled w/ the names of the 12 tribes of Israel, but all who accept eternal life will enter them.

   Please don't think I'm attacking you, or anything like that, I simply see things differently, and I'm presenting some of my views. I consider this a conversation, not an argument, and I consider you my co - laborer in Christ, definitely not an enemy. I'm fine w/ you, or anyone, presenting alternate views on things I post (and the Lord knows I CERTAINLY don't know everything, so I can be wrong here or there).

   

 

   

   

 

[Joulre2abba]

On 5/3/2019 at 7:02 PM, douge said:

Hi

I did not get the impression that you think the church is Israel.

There is a difference in Gentiles:

Gentiles that believed by Peter and the eleven

Gentiles that believed by Paul

Here is an example of Gentiles who believed Peter....they are part of the believing remnant of Israel...they are new testament saints 

Acts 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

These are the Gentiles (the new testament Gentile believers not the body of Christ Gentile believers) Paul wrote about in Romans 9:24-33    Romans 10:12 (Romans 10:19 Jews and Gentiles are the foolish nation)    Romans 11:13        Romans 11:17 The Gentiles were grafted into the good olive tree of Israel...the broken off branches is unbelieving Jews...the Jewish new testament believers are the good olive tree that bears fruit.

I have already answered regarding Rms.9:24-33 and Rms.10:12. I will not bother to restate what I already have on that. It is pointless for you to continue to make it a part of the discussion any further.

Rms.10:19 has it's scriptural connection with 1 Pet.2:9-10.

The following is addressing both Jew and Gentile believers concerning what God said to the Jews of the old testament concerning the Gentiles.

Romans 10:19 "Again I ask: Did Israel not understand? First, Moses says, "I will make you envious by those who are not a nation; I will make you angry by a nation that has no understanding."

The following is addressing both Jew and Gentile believers.

1 Pet.2:9-10 "But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, to proclaim the virtues of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light. Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy."

Additionally, in Rms.10:20-21 "And Isaiah says boldly: I was found by those who were not looking for Me; I revealed Myself to those who were not asking for Me. But to Israel he says: All day long I have spread out My hands to a disobedient and defiant people."

The Jews are to be envious because God gave to converted Gentiles what He gave to the Jews.. if they'd only accept it.

However, even with God giving those gifts and callings to the Gentiles.. the scriptures still do not call the Gentiles "Jews", nor "Israel". But the Gentiles are still called "Gentiles". It is said of the Gentiles that they bear the fruit.

It would not make the Jews jealous if the Gentiles were called "Jews", or "Israel". I'll say it another way.. If the Gentiles were called "Jews" in the new testament and using those gifts and callings.. why would the Jewish-born be jealous if (we)"Jews" and "Israel" had them?

But no. We keep our Gentile identity. And God uses it to make the Jewish-born jealous.

We should none of us Gentile Christians seek to theologically, or doctrinally take that purpose of dealing with the Jewish-born away from God.

[douge]

8 hours ago, Joulre2abba said:

I have already answered regarding Rms.9:24-33 and Rms.10:12. I will not bother to restate what I already have on that. It is pointless for you to continue to make it a part of the discussion any further.

Rms.10:19 has it's scriptural connection with 1 Pet.2:9-10.

The following is addressing both Jew and Gentile believers concerning what God said to the Jews of the old testament concerning the Gentiles.

Romans 10:19 "Again I ask: Did Israel not understand? First, Moses says, "I will make you envious by those who are not a nation; I will make you angry by a nation that has no understanding."

The following is addressing both Jew and Gentile believers.

1 Pet.2:9-10 "But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, to proclaim the virtues of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light. Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy."

Additionally, in Rms.10:20-21 "And Isaiah says boldly: I was found by those who were not looking for Me; I revealed Myself to those who were not asking for Me. But to Israel he says: All day long I have spread out My hands to a disobedient and defiant people."

The Jews are to be envious because God gave to converted Gentiles what He gave to the Jews.. if they'd only accept it.

However, even with God giving those gifts and callings to the Gentiles.. the scriptures still do not call the Gentiles "Jews", nor "Israel". But the Gentiles are still called "Gentiles". It is said of the Gentiles that they bear the fruit.

It would not make the Jews jealous if the Gentiles were called "Jews", or "Israel". I'll say it another way.. If the Gentiles were called "Jews" in the new testament and using those gifts and callings.. why would the Jewish-born be jealous if (we)"Jews" and "Israel" had them?

But no. We keep our Gentile identity. And God uses it to make the Jewish-born jealous.

We should none of us Gentile Christians seek to theologically, or doctrinally take that purpose of dealing with the Jewish-born away from God.

Hello

You said...."Rms.10:19 has it's scriptural connection with 1 Pet.2:9-10.

The following is addressing both Jew and Gentile believers concerning what God said to the Jews of the old testament concerning the Gentiles.

Romans 10:19 and 1 Peter 2:9-10 refers to the believing remnant of Israel.

You said........"The Jews are to be envious because God gave to converted Gentiles what He gave to the Jews.. if they'd only accept it.

However, even with God giving those gifts and callings to the Gentiles.. the scriptures still do not call the Gentiles "Jews", nor "Israel". But the Gentiles are still called "Gentiles". It is said of the Gentiles that they bear the fruit."

You are right the Gentiles were to provoke Israel to jealousy. These Gentiles are not Israel they are part of the remnant of the election of grace. These are the Gentiles who heard the preaching of Peter and the Apostles and believed but they are not Gentiles in the body of Christ.

Edited May 6, 2019 by douge

[douge]

On ‎5‎/‎5‎/‎2019 at 1:33 PM, Co - heir in Christ said:

   I respectfully disagree w/ you Douge. Some of the reasons are among some of the Scriptures you've quoted, so I won't go too much into that stuff, as it's obvious that we just see those Scriptural passages differently.

   I do believe that the church, including Jews who've accepted Yeshua/Jesus as the Messiah, is spiritual Israel. Gentiles who've come to Christ are the wild olive branches grafted into the tree of Israel (we are borne by the root, but part of the same tree). Rom. 11: 11 - 24 goes into all of this.

   I agree that the gentile church has not "replaced" Israel. The Word is clear that Israel is God's chosen people forever, and history confirms the Word on that. Paul encouraged early converts to provide for the church in Jerusalem (who were mainly, if not completely, Jews) since it was only fitting that they should look out for the material needs of the ones whose spiritual blessings they'd been made partakers of (not verbatim). The nation of Israel will never be stripped of it's prophetic future, or of God's promises towards it (and it's amazing how many of those prophecies've already come true), and it hasn't been replaced.

   I agree, too, that it's not the outward things that truly make one a member of Israel, but the inward.

   I believe we are being made into priests and kings, under the One Perfect High Priest/King, based on Rev. 5: 9 - 10., and also based on my own experiences since I've come to know God. God is always teaching me to look out for others around me. Indeed, He holds me partially responsible (since He's revealed a lot to me) for my general environment and the people in it (especially if those people don't know God yet), since it's my duty to help others however I can, e.g., materially (If possible), praying for them, having compassion on them and forgiving them when they wrong me, witnessing to them, and potentially instructing them. He's always teaching me to be more like Him (and I've got a long way to go), to sacrifice myself and my ego to help others, just like a priest is supposed to look after his flock. Sometimes it can be wearying (even Moses complained to God about the burden of being responsible for so many people, so God poured His Spirit out on other leaders to share/distribute the burden).

   I agree that believers are the children of Abraham, but I, personally, don't think that negates believers being spiritual members of Israel as well.

   When the New Jerusalem is described, the 12 gates around the perimeter are labelled w/ the names of the 12 tribes of Israel, but all who accept eternal life will enter them.

   Please don't think I'm attacking you, or anything like that, I simply see things differently, and I'm presenting some of my views. I consider this a conversation, not an argument, and I consider you my co - laborer in Christ, definitely not an enemy. I'm fine w/ you, or anyone, presenting alternate views on things I post (and the Lord knows I CERTAINLY don't know everything, so I can be wrong here or there).

   

 

   

   

 

Hello

Thanks for your comments....you are more than respectful and courteous.

The only thing I would like to address is when you said........ "I believe we are being made into priests and kings, under the One Perfect High Priest/King, based on Rev. 5: 9 - 10."

The body of Christ is not spiritual Israel and Revelation 5:9-10 is for Israel only according to Exodus 19:6 "And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel." it is only spoken to the "children of Israel".

[Co - heir in Christ]

1 hour ago, douge said:

Hello

Thanks for your comments....you are more than respectful and courteous.

The only thing I would like to address is when you said........ "I believe we are being made into priests and kings, under the One Perfect High Priest/King, based on Rev. 5: 9 - 10."

The body of Christ is not spiritual Israel and Revelation 5:9-10 is for Israel only according to Exodus 19:6 "And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel." it is only spoken to the "children of Israel".

 First of all, I'd like to thank you for your politeness as well.

     I still disagree w/ you, but I wish everyone would study their Word as much as you do, and I'm glad God put you on my side. I think you'll do a lot of good work for God.

   My personal take on the Exodus passage when seen next to the Revelation passage, is that - while the words of Exodus 19: 6 were certainly only physically addressed to the actual, flesh - and- blood Israelites - the death and resurrection of Yeshua/Jesus granted spiritual access to those promises of God for those outside of the fold who would become born again through accepting Yeshua/Jesus' incredible gift.

   But, as I said, that's my personal take on it, and I'll pray for further knowledge on it so that I don't run the risk of spreading an interpretation that's not fully accurate.

   I think I've probably said everything I can on this topic, so I probably won't comment on it again (although I'll definitely still read and consider any further points you have on the matter), even if you quote another differing opinion. Plus, I don't want you to think I'm just badgering you, or seeking an argument.

   However, it's not common that I meet someone w/ a love for the Word, so I don't want to pass up the opportunity to have more conversations w/ you, on whatever topics, in the future.

   Peace, brother!

   

   

[Marilyn C]

2 hours ago, douge said:

Hello

Thanks for your comments....you are more than respectful and courteous.

The only thing I would like to address is when you said........ "I believe we are being made into priests and kings, under the One Perfect High Priest/King, based on Rev. 5: 9 - 10."

The body of Christ is not spiritual Israel and Revelation 5:9-10 is for Israel only according to Exodus 19:6 "And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel." it is only spoken to the "children of Israel".

Hi douge,

You do have a good understanding of much of God`s word and it is good to read what you say. I do agree that the church, the Body of Christ is NOT Israel. So that`s great we can agree there. However there is a very important point that needs to be looked at. I have stated elsewhere that the two offices of King and priest are separate in Israel while in the Body of Christ who has the `on top` calling, (high calling) on Christ`s own throne, we will be kingpriests as God`s word says.

The Lord Himself is the highPriest and the King. Where there is a high priest there are other priests and they are of the same Melchizedek order, (kingpriests). That is shown in Rev. 1:6 &  5: 9 - 10) Also for us to sit on His throne, (Rev. 3: 21) indicates we will all rule, (Kingship) whereas Israel will only have ONE king - king David in the millennium, (under Christ).

Marilyn.

[Joulre2abba]

18 hours ago, douge said:

Hello

You said...."Rms.10:19 has it's scriptural connection with 1 Pet.2:9-10.

The following is addressing both Jew and Gentile believers concerning what God said to the Jews of the old testament concerning the Gentiles.

Romans 10:19 and 1 Peter 2:9-10 refers to the believing remnant of Israel.

You said........"The Jews are to be envious because God gave to converted Gentiles what He gave to the Jews.. if they'd only accept it.

However, even with God giving those gifts and callings to the Gentiles.. the scriptures still do not call the Gentiles "Jews", nor "Israel". But the Gentiles are still called "Gentiles". It is said of the Gentiles that they bear the fruit."

You are right the Gentiles were to provoke Israel to jealousy. These Gentiles are not Israel they are part of the remnant of the election of grace. These are the Gentiles who heard the preaching of Peter and the Apostles and believed but they are not Gentiles in the body of Christ.

In response to the last part that I highlighted: There is no Biblical evidence that those Gentiles believed that because we don't have any of their handwritten epistles where they claim that.

Edited May 7, 2019 by Joulre2abba
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