Michael37 Posted June 9, 2019 Group: Servant Followers: 21 Topic Count: 241 Topics Per Day: 0.11 Content Count: 6,953 Content Per Day: 3.27 Reputation: 4,871 Days Won: 2 Joined: 07/05/2018 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/23/1954 Share Posted June 9, 2019 1 minute ago, GandalfTheWise said: Do you happen to have any links to sites where people are actively promoting this? I'd be curious to see them for myself. Thanks. See what you think about this site: Kingwatch 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debp Posted June 9, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 52 Topic Count: 1,021 Topics Per Day: 0.15 Content Count: 12,321 Content Per Day: 1.80 Reputation: 16,371 Days Won: 92 Joined: 07/19/2005 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 9, 2019 19 minutes ago, Michael37 said: See what you think about this site: Kingwatch Following is a quote from the above site.... "When the saints exercise the authority that Jesus has given to them, they will establish his Government on the earth. All rulers will come to obey his word, and to worship his name. It is the saints, and not Jesus, who will establish the Kingdom." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GandalfTheWise Posted June 9, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 24 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,459 Content Per Day: 0.60 Reputation: 2,377 Days Won: 2 Joined: 08/23/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted June 9, 2019 12 minutes ago, Debp said: Following is a quote from the above site.... "When the saints exercise the authority that Jesus has given to them, they will establish his Government on the earth. All rulers will come to obey his word, and to worship his name. It is the saints, and not Jesus, who will establish the Kingdom." I personally would like to see a link to an entire page to see the context surrounding the quotes. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debp Posted June 9, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 52 Topic Count: 1,021 Topics Per Day: 0.15 Content Count: 12,321 Content Per Day: 1.80 Reputation: 16,371 Days Won: 92 Joined: 07/19/2005 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 9, 2019 (edited) On 6/6/2019 at 1:37 AM, Debp said: 15 minutes ago, GandalfTheWise said: 30 minutes ago, Debp said: Sorry, wrong link.... it's late! Will find the page either tonight or later today....I should be turning in! Edited June 9, 2019 by Debp Mistake in post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GandalfTheWise Posted June 9, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 24 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,459 Content Per Day: 0.60 Reputation: 2,377 Days Won: 2 Joined: 08/23/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted June 9, 2019 39 minutes ago, Michael37 said: See what you think about this site: Kingwatch And I thought I wrote a lot of stuff... It'll take me awhile to digest this over perhaps the next week or so as I have time. The issue is distinguishing his definitions to understand what he is really saying in any particular sentence. For example, he throws around the term apostle a lot, but in the in depth article he basically defines apostle as a mature and proven elder who becomes a missionary or church planter. Thus, random statements here and there sound weird when he says apostle but would be basically what most other Christians would agree with if the terms missionary or church planter were used instead. I also have the cursory impression that much of what he talks about is focused on the local church being strong and growing and the impact it has in its immediate vicinity with a global impact coming from a grass roots growth of local churches. My sense of his eschatology is that he is post-millennial rather than pre-millenial with reference to the return of Christ but he seems to believe in a real return of Christ as well as God causing a spiritual revival in Israel which is what ushers in the millennial period. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GandalfTheWise Posted June 9, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 24 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,459 Content Per Day: 0.60 Reputation: 2,377 Days Won: 2 Joined: 08/23/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted June 9, 2019 1 minute ago, Debp said: The link is above. I posted it when I first made the topic. Quote from the link. Ahh...I thought the one quote was from the Kingwatch site (which is huge and I didn't feel like paging through trying to find one sentence to see context). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debp Posted June 9, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 52 Topic Count: 1,021 Topics Per Day: 0.15 Content Count: 12,321 Content Per Day: 1.80 Reputation: 16,371 Days Won: 92 Joined: 07/19/2005 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 9, 2019 42 minutes ago, Debp said: Following is a quote from the above site.... "When the saints exercise the authority that Jesus has given to them, they will establish his Government on the earth. All rulers will come to obey his word, and to worship his name. It is the saints, and not Jesus, who will establish the Kingdom." Following is the link to the page.....the above quote is in the #1 section, titled Christians. http://www.kingwatch.co.nz/Kingdom_of_God/tools.htm 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeauJangles Posted June 9, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 43 Topic Count: 229 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 10,900 Content Per Day: 2.92 Reputation: 12,145 Days Won: 68 Joined: 02/13/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1954 Share Posted June 9, 2019 Reading through the posts here on this topic was pretty eye opening. Especially shocking was this branched off cult that uses 'angel boards', apparently are just ouija in new age disguise. Weird. There were plenty cults of concern back in the 70's, called The Manifest Sons Of God. They expected to attain'spiritual bodies', and were going into a type of perfectionism before ushering in the coming of Christ, among other things. And the Sons Of God, a mind control cult, and into communal living. This stuff never seems to end. Odd folks looking out to get all mystical, thinking it's true spirituality. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dennis1209 Posted June 9, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 18 Topic Count: 347 Topics Per Day: 0.13 Content Count: 7,475 Content Per Day: 2.70 Reputation: 5,381 Days Won: 1 Joined: 09/27/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted June 9, 2019 We shouldn't be all that surprised. Satan is working harder than ever to kill, deceive and destroy in these latter days, as he knows his time is getting short. It appears to me; Satan tried to thwart God's plan prior to Jesus's incarnation by trying to contaminate the blood line of Jesus, genocide of the Hebrews / Jews, and other means. That didn't work. Now among other ways, he is attacking, confusing and distorting God's Word, the Bible. It seems to me more and more cults are popping up proportionally these days than in the past. Matthew 7:14 (KJV) Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Depending on your definition of a cult [Hinduism, Islam, Mormonism, Catholicism [every religion worships the same god called by a different name], Wicca, New Age Movement, all the fringe groups to many to mention); with 1.6 billion Catholic adherents, 1.4 billion Muslims, etc... It would appear that the majority by population of world 'religion' would be considered a cult? Please correct me if my view is skewed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GandalfTheWise Posted June 9, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 24 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,459 Content Per Day: 0.60 Reputation: 2,377 Days Won: 2 Joined: 08/23/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted June 9, 2019 The main thing I do when reading links and sites like this is to try to figure out what they are really thinking and really believe. Sometimes it's necessary to look past the letter of the words and try to see the intentions and ideas. I also try to look as much as possible at someone's real life which can be a challenge online. As far as I can tell, this fellow is primarily a part-time writer (and now retired and writing more) and a strong proponent of local house churches lead by groups of elders based around relationships and gifts rather than organized churches. As far as I can tell, this page (http://www.kingwatch.co.nz/Kingdom_of_God/tools.htm) is more or less what I've heard many Christians in many churches talk about in terms of sharing the gospel and being a positive influence in our world. It's the idea of Christians being a Christian influence in our daily lives in our chosen professions and within our relationships. Remove the eschatological optimism and this is mostly standard Christian stuff I've heard many times in many forms over the years. I think that the summary sentence at the end of the page "The Kingdom will be established through the proclamation of the gospel and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. Christians already have the power and the authority that they need to establish the kingdom of God. We do not have to wait for the return of Jesus to see it become a reality. Instead, we should be going to work in the power of the Spirit, to win the world for Jesus, now. The church will not be victorious until it gets back to a more positive eschatology." appears to be what he means when he talks about the saints establishing the kingdom. As far as I can tell, he's saying that God is going to bring about many changes on the earth through the work of the Holy Spirit through the church rather than the return of Christ. As practical matter, church history is full of such examples where spiritual revivals transformed cultures at a local level and at times national level. He just seems to think the Bible teaches that these local revivals can occur and grow until they cover the world. As far as I can tell, he seems to have a cynical view that most Christians have given up on having an impact in the world and believe we are now at a point in church history where our only option is to separate ourselves from the world and hang on until the rapture and that transformational spiritual revivals are a thing of the past and will never happen again. With regard to the quote "It is the saints, and not Jesus, who will establish the Kingdom.", I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt that his intention with this sentence is something along the lines "the Holy Spirit working through the church will establish the Kingdom of God rather than the Christ's return" since he fairly clearly states things like this many times. His second section is quite explicit about this being a God-centered work rather than a human effort. "The gospel of Jesus Christ is the principal means by which the Kingdom of God will be established. Jesus said that no one can enter the Kingdom unless they are born again of the Spirit (John 3:3). Sin is the only obstacle to the kingdom of God. The only solution to sin is the rebirth which comes through repentance and faith in Jesus. This allows the Holy Spirit to dwell in a person, so that he can live in obedience to Jesus. Nothing can be done to build the Kingdom without the preaching of the gospel. Unregenerate people have no place in God's Kingdom. So the first step to bringing in the Kingdom is to preach the gospel to all nations. And this is what Jesus has commanded the church to do. If the church is faithful to this command, it will be successful. The gospel is the power of God for salvation (Rom 1:16). All his power is behind the gospel, so where it is proclaimed in the power of the Spirit, it will be effective. The time will come when the majority of the people in the world will have heard the gospel, and come to faith in Jesus. As they choose him as their Lord, each one will become part of the Kingdom." As far as I can tell, his only real divergence (at least on this page) is that he believes that the Bible teaches that the Holy Spirit will empower the church so that it will eventually be successful in bringing the gospel to the world at a global level. At a practical level, he seems to be encouraging the same things at a local church level that most Christians do. It's just that he's very optimistic these local things will grow and cover the earth. He's also very explicit on other pages that he's not talking about an organizational structure with a hierarchy of leaders leading this but rather a more grass roots growth of local churches led by local groups of elders with the Holy Spirit guiding individuals within their local relationships and churches. I've only skimmed a fraction of this site, but so far I see no signs of atheism or eastern influences (humanizing God or deifying humans), no signs of replacement theology (on other pages he specifically talks about the actual restoration of Israel), and he specifically talks about Christ's return and the rapture as being real things on other pages. The only thing I've seen so far that is way out of the mainstream is that he seems to have a post-millennial view that the millennium is started by the spiritual revival and conversion of Israel to Jesus Christ. Then the combination of the Holy Spirit working through both the church and a restored Israel ushers in a world-wide Kingdom of God. I could see some Christians using this stuff and being somewhat militant in their belief that house churches are God's real plan for the church rather than organized denominations and ministries. Anyway, that's my take so far after an hour or so of skimming and reading stuff on that site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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