Does “Counted Worthy to Escape” Prove the Pretrib. Rapture?

[JLB]

10 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Sorry, my friend, but you are living a dream world. The real world is pretrib. Paul has made it absolutely clear that HIS rapture / gathering comes just before Wrath - as if the rapture will be the trigger for the wrath.

 

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15

 

How can you possibly come to the conclusion that the resurrection and rapture as well as the destruction of the antichrist, which all occur at His coming, happens before the tribulation?

 

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8

 

 

JLB

[Montana Marv]

9 minutes ago, JLB said:

 

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15

 

How can you possibly come to the conclusion that the resurrection and rapture as well as the destruction of the antichrist, which all occur at His coming, happens before the tribulation?

 

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8

 

 

JLB

Are we talking about Christs Second Return (Advent) after His first Advent.  Or are we talking about a Coming of Christ, following His ascension; the first being on the road to Damascus, the next being the RAPTURE.  Later followed by His Second Coming (Advent), physically here on earth.

Yet, nowhere in Scripture is the true date for the Rapture given, known only by God the Father.  Many misinterpret the Second Coming and the Rapture; which are two separate events.  The lawless one will be revealed after the Rapture, followed by his demise 7 years later.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, JLB said:

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15

How can you possibly come to the conclusion that the resurrection and rapture as well as the destruction of the antichrist, which all occur at His coming, happens before the tribulation?

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8

JLB

How can I come to this conclusion?  By an in-depth study of all end times scriptures, praying in the Spirit and asking God to reveal His intent.

It is just little things that many people read over and miss. For example, WHO received the revelation of the rapture of the church? Did Mark? No. Did Matthew? No, NOT even John received this revelation: it was Paul - the missionary to the Gentiles.

Another little thing: we read in Daniel 9 that the 70th week - the final week of the 70th week determined for the JEWS -  was for HIS PEOPLE. So who are Daniel's people? Of course, the Jews and Hebrews.  The final week is not meant by God to be for Gentiles.

Another little thing: 1 Corinthians 15:51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—

When Paul received the revelation of the catching up of the saints in Christ who are alive when the Dead are caught up - it was a MYSTERY.  That means no one else on earth knew anything about it. Most all of the Jews knew that one day the dead would be resurrected - but NONE knew God will instantly change those that were alive and give them a resurrection body.  I know, one could argue that probably Matthew, Mark and Luke got to read Paul's letter before they wrote theirs. It is possible, but if so, they certainly did not copy Paul.

Another little thing; most theories on the rapture require rearranging Revelation to fit that theory. The prewrath theory is without a doubt the very worst as rearranging.  Case in point: John shows us the marriage and marriage supper taking place in heaven before Jesus gets on His white horse. Posttribber are then forced to ad lib there and say no, the real time is later on earth. I challenge that theory: when John wrote that the time had come, it means NOW, not later!  Then, countless people have been to heaven to SEE with their own spiritual eyes, the layout of the marriage supper: tables as far as the eye can see, all set, chairs with names on them, and everything ready, just waiting now for the church to arrive.

I am convinced that ANY theory that must rearrange Revelation will be proven wrong.

Because of the above, if we wish to determine TIMING for the rapture, it just makes sense to consult Paul first.

When we study 1 Thes. 4 & 5, Paul gives us timing information. Sadly most people just read over it and MISS the timing hints. For example, just three verses after Paul's classic rapture verse (4:17) Paul mentions the Day of the Lord - as if the DAY has something to do with the rapture. I am convinced it DOES: the moment the rapture takes place, the church age ends and "time" becomes Day of the Lord time."

That brings up another little thing: God has dispensations - He does not care if millions deny such a thing. We are living in "the church age" also called "the age of Grace." It is not at all a time of judgment. It is a time of grace, where God pushes off judgment till later. As previously stated, the 7th week is JEWISH time, finishing up the 70 weeks determined upon the Hebrew people. How can the age of Grace for the Gentile church ("until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled") ("Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.") 

Back to Paul: It seems Paul has made the rapture and THE DAY as back to back events that cannot be separated. Paul teaches us that a SUDDENLY is coming: suddenly - without warning - like a thief in the night - at a time when people are saying "peace and safety" - the dead in Christ will fly up out of the ground into the air. It is the start of the series of rapture events.

Next, a moment later, those remaining on the earth are divided by Paul into two groups: those IN CHRIST and those living in the darkness.

So a moment after the dead in Christ rise, Paul tells us those living in Christ get raptured. They get "salvation." (The are saved from the sudden destruction.)  AT THE VERY SAME MOMENT IN TIME: those living in darkness are left behind - to suffer the sudden destruction.  Then Paul tells us this sudden destruction is the wrath of God! Well, He already told us it is the start of the Day of the Lord, or as John put it, the Day of His Wrath.  In other words, TIME goes from Grace to Wrath, in a moment of time.

Paul told us this when he wrote that God is not going to set any appointments (for His kinds) with His wrath. In other words, the sudden destruction WILL BE the start of God's wrath.

What IS this "sudden destruction?" Have you ever asked God? I did. Did you notice in Matthew 27 he wrote, "the earth did quake...and the graves were opened..." It was when God rose up the elders of the Old Testament.  It seems when God raises those long dead, it is going to cause a great earthquake. Think about it: The atoms of Adam's body might have been scattered for hundreds of miles in all directions. The same would go for many of those who died before the flood. For those who died in christ, we could say the same thing. The dead in Christ are found around the world, so when God brings the particles of those bodies together, it is going to cause a great, worldwide earthquake.

Now, WHERE in Revelation do we find the first earthquake? Where in Revelation do we find the beginning of God's wrath? BOTH are found at the 6th seal. We find a "sudden destruction" earthquake and God's wrath beginning Putting Paul together with John, then the rapture of the church MUST COME before Wrath or before the 6th seal.

Next, if we really understand the first seal  - the church sent out with the gospel - then the next three seals as the devil trying to stop the church  - with wars, famines, pestilences etc, we get to the 5th seal. It is for the martyrs of the church age.

They are crying out wondering WHEN God is going to bring judgment - to avenge their deaths. God in short tells them judgment is not coming until the last (full number) martyr will come in. In short, they are told they must wait for the rapture of the church that will end the church age: the next martyr would be a 70th week martyr.

What does John write next? Of course the 6th seal. Earthquake. Wrath. i am convinced the rapture must come a moment before the 6th seal.

It is no mistake then that John SAW the raptured church in heaven in chapter 7 as the crowd too large to number.

Scripture is clear: the church is removed BEFORE wrath and before the 70th week. (The week begins at the 7th seal.)

 

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, JLB said:

You do understand that His coming is His second coming, right?

Its at the end of the age, on the last Day.

Are you aware that He destroys the antichrist at His coming as well?

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8

JLB

His 2nd coming will be at the pretrib rapture shown by Paul and John to come a moment before the 6th seal. The Beast is not even revealed yet! He will not be revealed until the midpoint of the week.

the man of sin will enter the temple and declare HE is the god of the Jews. It will be the abomination Jesus spoke of. It will stop the daily sacrifices. the 7th trumpet will sound in heaven to mark that day in heaven. It is the exact midpoint of the 70th week.  He is now REVEALED as the Beast.

Those living in Judea will flee.

Michael will go after Satan to cast Him down.

Satan comes down with great wrath. He immediately goes after those who flee. He then turns on the remnant - those who are left after the pretrib rapture - and who love Jesus.

Next, John sees the Beast rise up: the man of sin turned into the Antichrist Beast. 

Next the false prophet shows up.

They create an image and a mark. (chapter 13)

God warns people NOT to take the mark (chapter 14)

Chapter 15: the beheaded BEGIN to show up in heaven.

Chapter 16: God will pour out the vials of His wrath to shorten those days of GT.

The 7th vial ENDS the week.

Chapters 17 & 18, the ultimate destruction of the cities of the world and of Jerusalem the Great Babylon city.

Chapter 19, the marriage and supper in heaven

Chapter 19, FINALLY, Jesus returns with the armies of heaven.

Jesus then destroys the Beast and False Prophet at his 3rd (THIRD) coming.

[iamlamad]

13 hours ago, frienduff thaylorde said:

As I said we wont be going under the wrath of GOD .    The beast and his aints will .    NOT the saints .   the saints WILL , however go under the great wrath of the beast .

Lets not fear man nor to lose our lives  .    Remember ,  BLESSED , not cursed , BUT BLESSED are those who suffer for HIS NAME SAKE .

Sorry, my friend, but God is NOT GOING to create a special little sun so the believers can have light!

Perhaps you have never heard of this:

Matthew 27:5
And he [Judas Iscariot] ..., went and hanged himself.

Luke 10:37
... Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

1 Thes 5
18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

Each line is scripture, and someone put them together AS IF they were mean to fit together.

Likewise many people quote scripture THINKING it will fit those days of GT. The truth is, there are only TWO scriptures that believes can have true bible faith in, during those days:

Dan. 7: ²¹ I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

Rev. 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

The truth is, NO OTHER SCRIPTURES are going to override these two, for they are specifically for this time. 

Yes, believer may well be blessed but they are going to suffer. God's wrath is going to cover the earth. You will get thirsty just like all others, but God is not going to create water just for believers.. There is no scripture for this. The scripture we have is you will be overcome.

 

However, for those that turn themselves in, and lose their head, they will certainly make it to heaven. Rev. 20 assures us of this. Chances are slim to NONE that Gentile Believers will survive the week. If they do, and IF they pass the sheep and goat judgment, they will not see heaven, but will enter the Millennial reign of Christ. But there is very little scripture on this.

[frienduff thaylorde]

8 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Sorry, my friend, but God is NOT GOING to create a special little sun so the believers can have light!

Perhaps you have never heard of this:

Matthew 27:5
And he [Judas Iscariot] ..., went and hanged himself.

Luke 10:37
... Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

1 Thes 5
18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

Each line is scripture, and someone put them together AS IF they were mean to fit together.

Likewise many people quote scripture THINKING it will fit those days of GT. The truth is, there are only TWO scriptures that believes can have true bible faith in, during those days:

Dan. 7: ²¹ I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

Rev. 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

The truth is, NO OTHER SCRIPTURES are going to override these two, for they are specifically for this time. 

Yes, believer may well be blessed but they are going to suffer. God's wrath is going to cover the earth. You will get thirsty just like all others, but God is not going to create water just for believers.. There is no scripture for this. The scripture we have is you will be overcome.

 

However, for those that turn themselves in, and lose their head, they will certainly make it to heaven. Rev. 20 assures us of this. Chances are slim to NONE that Gentile Believers will survive the week. If they do, and IF they pass the sheep and goat judgment, they will not see heaven, but will enter the Millennial reign of Christ. But there is very little scripture on this.

Sorry but if we pay Attention ,    I done said we don't go under the wrath of GOD .  LOOK at whose KINGDOM and whose people IS IN THAT darkness .

ITS NOT SAINTS that will be under wrath .  ITS THOSE WHO ARE DAMNED and FOLLOWED the BEAST .

Now buckle down ,    we about to go under massive tribulation in the days ahead .     And satans fake love fest all inclusive unity , IS the weapon that will make all minds ready

to betray the true lambs when once the Beast rises up .      EYES OPEN .     AND remember , BLESSED are those who are persecuted , NOT CURSED ,  BUT BLESSED . 

Edited June 29, 2019 by frienduff thaylorde

[frienduff thaylorde]

3 hours ago, JLB said:

 

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15

 

How can you possibly come to the conclusion that the resurrection and rapture as well as the destruction of the antichrist, which all occur at His coming, happens before the tribulation?

 

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8

 

 

JLB

Many folks don't want to see this truth .    They got the kings kids mentality .

But if we read the second chapter of second thess ,   IT beings with THE COMING of the LORD < HIS DAY and our gathering unto HIM .

Everything in between is saying WHAT MUST HAPPEN before HE , JESUS IS REVEALED FROM HEAVEN.

look how paul ends that . SO NOW YOU KNOW CHURCH , what must occur BEFORE HE , JESUS IS REVELAED .   RIGHT THEIR IN BLACK AND WHITE .

but folks want to believe they KINGS KIDS , and BY GOLLY KINGS KIDS are NOT APPOINTED UNTO TRIBULATION , BUT UNTO MONEY and EASY TIMES .

NOT what JESUS SAID .     IN THIS WORLD ye shall HAVE TRIBULATION .  NOT if you GOOD ENOUGH you will escape tribulation .

IN fact   ALL WHO LIVE GODLY IN CHRIST will suffer persecution , NOT ESCAPE IT .   THE ONLY THING we do not go under IS THE WRATH OF GOD .

But not to KINGS KIDS ,  they got them crowns , NOW  GIVE THEM THE EASY LIFE .  

[Last Daze]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Sorry, my friend, but God is NOT GOING to create a special little sun so the believers can have light!

Perhaps not.  He might just seal 144,000 of them so that they can be light.

[iamlamad]

33 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

Perhaps not.  He might just seal 144,000 of them so that they can be light.

Once again you make a comment that shows us you ignore John's timing. The 144,000 are sealed for the first half of the 70th week and are then taken to heaven, while the Two Witnesses replace them on earth.

On the other hand, it is late in the week when God brings darkness.

Added later: when God tells us the sun and moon are darkened and even the star light is blocked, he is talking about physical light, not spiritual light.

Edited June 28, 2019 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

50 minutes ago, frienduff thaylorde said:

Many folks don't want to see this truth .    They got the kings kids mentality .

But if we read the second chapter of second thess ,   IT beings with THE COMING of the LORD < HIS DAY and our gathering unto HIM .

Everything in between is saying WHAT MUST HAPPEN before HE , JESUS IS REVEALED FROM HEAVEN.

look how paul ends that . SO NOW YOU KNOW CHURCH , what must occur BEFORE HE , JESUS IS REVELAED .   RIGHT THEIR IN BLACK AND WHITE .

but folks want to believe they KINGS KIDS , and BY GOLLY KINGS KIDS are NOT APPOINTED UNTO TRIBULATION , BUT UNTO MONEY and EASY TIMES .

NOT what JESUS SAID .     IN THIS WORLD ye shall HAVE TRIBULATION .  NOT if you GOOD ENOUGH you will escape tribulation .

IN fact   ALL WHO LIVE GODLY IN CHRIST will suffer persecution , NOT ESCAPE IT .   THE ONLY THING we do not go under IS THE WRATH OF GOD .

But not to KINGS KIDS ,  they got them crowns , NOW  GIVE THEM THE EASY LIFE .  

All you have done here is show us you don't understand Paul.  The truth of 2 Thes. is this:

The THEME of the passage is the rapture, so the rapture MUST be found in the passage somewhere.

Verses 6-8 show us that someone or some power is restraining the man of sin, preventing him from being revealed before the proper time.  These verses tell us that when the proper time comes, this power restraining him will be "taken out of the way, and THEN the man of sin can be revealed.

Now, if we look very close at verse 3, we find that in Paul's argument (not in reality) the man of sin IS REVEALED. I challenge you to look at that verse in every translation you can find. My point is, if at the end of verse 3 the man of sin "is revealed" then in the first part of verse 3 the power holding down or restraining the man of sin from being revealed MUST BE "taken out of the way."

There is only ONE WORD in verse 3a that could even could close to being someone or some force being "taken out of the way." That is the Greek word, apostasia.  When we dissect this compound word, we find that the first word, "Apo" means or can mean, a part of a whole removed from the whole spatially to another location. (Strongs)  The the other Greek word, Stasia means "a standing." That means stationary - no moving.

The truth then is that this word fits Paul's rapture perhaps better than any English compound word: It is the Holy Spirit, working through the church that is restraining the man of sin, but at the rapture the church will be "taken out of the way." Suddenly the Holy Spirit will have no people on earth to work through. And the church will be snatched SO FAST it will appear as the rest of the population is standing still,  not moving.

Since this was not the normal use of "Apostasia" Paul had to get the readers to think twice, go back and examine - so he wrote, "and now you KNOW who is restraining..." I find it amazing Paul's first readers knew but so many today only guess and most guess wrong.  What would the first readers have done when they read, "and now you know....?" They would have said, "no I don't know!" HOW can we "now know?" So they would go back and read it again and they would come to the very conclusion shown above.

What Paul is really saying is, the RAPTURE must take place first, and THEN the man of sin will be revealed - and when He is revealed then all will know that the Day of the Lord has started and they are IN IT.  (The Day starts at the 6th seal - while the revealing will be at the midpoint.)

See, those folks Paul was writing to had been told that THE DAY had already started and then were now in it. Paul's argument is to show them how anyone can know FOR SURE when they are IN the Day of the Lord: if the rapture comes FIRST, and then the man of sin is revealed, THEN all will know the DAY has started.

Edited June 28, 2019 by iamlamad