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Shilohsfoal

The little horn

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3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Da Puppers.

You were doing just fine until you make this RADICAL leap! The "kingdom" of Antiochus IV Epiphanes is called the "Seleucid Empire," which no longer exists today!

This passage was NOT for "the time of the end" of all THINGS! It was for "the time of the end" of the SELEUCID EMPIRE!

The "many days" refers to the fact that there were almost 400 YEARS between the close of the Tanakh (the OT) and the arrival of the Messiah Yeshua`! And, within that time period, we have the Seleucid Empire (including Antiochus IV), the Hasmonean Revolt (the time of "the Maccabees" - "the Hammer"), and the arrival of the Roman occupation of the Middle East and its Idumean puppet-king, Herod the Great!

Learn from history FIRST; THEN, one can look more clearly at those passages which have NOT yet been fulfilled!

 There are several reason why it is an error to ascribe this prophecy to history rather than a future fulfilment.   

1.  For starters,  when Peter says that no prophecy is of private interpretation.   This not only means that it will happen exactly as God's word says that it will,  it also means that when it is fulfilled (it becomes history), there will be a prophetic recognition.   A simple historical recounting,  without the backing of God's acknowledgement,  is nothing more than a private interpretation of scripture.  Did you get those words, "An interpretation of SCRIPTURE".  You may not believe that scripture interprets scripture,  but I do.   Scholars have long rejected the inspiration of Maccabees.  Worthy of historical reckoning,  yes,  but not on par with the inspired word of God. 

2.  This is not just a vision of Daniel,  it's a vision with Daniel as a participant.    Daniel 12 confirms that Daniel will stand in his lot "at the end of the days", and not simply at the last day.   I will only say that the saints and prophets,  Daniel Abraham,  et al, will all receive their rewards at the 7th trumpet,  long before Armageddon. 

3.  Daniel 8:17,19 says that the vision is for the time of the and the last end of the indignation.   This is why Daniel will stand in his lot in the fulfilment of this vision. 

4. Applying the word transgressors to any other nation than Israel is a misuse of the word.   "Come to a full" means to come to a full end,  i.e., to their last end. 

5. Other reasons include standing up to the prince of princes and being broken without hand.  The sanctuary will be cleansed. 

All of this adds up to an unfulfilled prophecy.   If you want to believe that it has been fulfilled,  you are selling yourself short on understanding the last days.   

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

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On 7/14/2019 at 2:17 PM, Shilohsfoal said:

So you believe jesus lied when he said the abomination which causes desolation is a sign of his second advent or you belueve Jesus just couldnt understand Daniel?

https://biblehub.com/matthew/24-15.htm

You believe it is NONSENSE for Jesus to project the prophecy of daniel to be future.

Shalom, Shilohsfoal.

Nope. Neither one. First, Yeshua` wasn't talking about "the abomination which causes desolation" found in either Daniel 8 or Daniel 11. He was talking about the REASON for the "desolation" in which He left the Jews of Jerusalem in Matthew 23:37-39, the "abominations of the woes" pronounced in the first part of Matthew 23 and their rejection of God's Messiah! Therefore, it wasn't about the "Second Advent" nor could one say that Yeshua` couldn't understand Daniel 9:24-27!

Furthermore, Yeshua` didn't "PROJECT" the prophecy of Daniel into any future other than their own just 40 years after Yeshua`s rejection and crucifixion.

Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 are ALL the same event - the Olivet Discourse:

Matthew 24:9-28 (KJV)

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

Mark 13:10-23 (KJV)

10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations. But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost. 12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death. 13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: 15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house: 16 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take anything out of his house: 16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment. 17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter. 19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. 20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. 21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not: 22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. 23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

Luke 21:10-24 (KJV)

10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: 11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven. 12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to he synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake. 13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony. 14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer: 15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. 16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. 17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake. 18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish. 19 In your patience possess ye your souls.

20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give such, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land (of ISRAEL), and wrath upon this people (THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL). 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles (non-Israelis), until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

All of this occurred in the FIRST CENTURY A.D! I've highlighted a few, identical points in all three, and by means of a "squeeze play," one can identify the following equivalences:

"the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place" =
"the abomination of desolation
, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not" =
"
Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh."

And, this happened in the SIEGE of Jerusalem from 66 to 70 A.D! The Romans' BLOCKADE of Jerusalem ended with the destruction - the DESOLATION - of Jerusalem! It's not "rocket science," people! This prophecy of our Lord is FULFILLED!

One can also see (if one is willing to admit it and REFUSES to be blind to it anymore) that another equivalence is ...

"great tribulation" = 
"affliction" =
"
great distress in the land (of ISRAEL), and wrath upon this people (THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL)."

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On 7/14/2019 at 6:25 PM, Da Puppers said:

 There are several reason why it is an error to ascribe this prophecy to history rather than a future fulfilment.   

1.  For starters,  when Peter says that no prophecy is of private interpretation.   This not only means that it will happen exactly as God's word says that it will,  it also means that when it is fulfilled (it becomes history), there will be a prophetic recognition.   A simple historical recounting,  without the backing of God's acknowledgement,  is nothing more than a private interpretation of scripture.  Did you get those words, "An interpretation of SCRIPTURE".  You may not believe that scripture interprets scripture,  but I do.   Scholars have long rejected the inspiration of Maccabees.  Worthy of historical reckoning,  yes,  but not on par with the inspired word of God. 

2.  This is not just a vision of Daniel,  it's a vision with Daniel as a participant.    Daniel 12 confirms that Daniel will stand in his lot "at the end of the days", and not simply at the last day.   I will only say that the saints and prophets,  Daniel Abraham,  et al, will all receive their rewards at the 7th trumpet,  long before Armageddon. 

3.  Daniel 8:17,19 says that the vision is for the time of the and the last end of the indignation.   This is why Daniel will stand in his lot in the fulfilment of this vision. 

4. Applying the word transgressors to any other nation than Israel is a misuse of the word.   "Come to a full" means to come to a full end,  i.e., to their last end. 

5. Other reasons include standing up to the prince of princes and being broken without hand.  The sanctuary will be cleansed. 

All of this adds up to an unfulfilled prophecy.   If you want to believe that it has been fulfilled,  you are selling yourself short on understanding the last days.   

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

Shalom, Da Puppers.

Well, for starters, you MISAPPLIED Peter's words in 2 Peter 1:20-21! Look at it in context, and let's look at the Greek:

2 Peter 1:16-21 (KJV)

16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.

19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Verses 16-18 inform us that Kefa ("Peter") is talking about his experience in the "Mount of Transfiguration" when He PERSONALLY SAW Yeshua` transformed which he recognized as "the power and coming of our Lord (our Master) Yeshua` the Messiah!"

Then, Kefa noted that his readers should see his account of this event as a "light that shines in a dark place" until the time in their future they see the truth PERSONALLY as "the day dawn, and the day star arise" in their own hearts!

Then, he adds, "the prophecy came not ... by the will of man" in the past when the prophecy was given and written down and also adds that "holy men of God (the prophets) spake as they were moved by the Ruwach haQodesh (the Holy Spirit or the Holy Ghost)."

So, in between, when he said, "no prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation," he's talking about his VISION he had on the "Mount of Transfiguration!" Furthermore, he was not alone! His close companions, Ya`aqov and Yochanan ("James and John") were with him and also saw the vision and could verify what he saw and heard!

Here's the Greek (transliterated) of this passage:

Petrou B 1:16-21 (UBS The Greek New Testament)

16 Ou gar sesofismenois muthois exakoloutheesantes egnoorisamen humin teen tou Kuriou heemoon Ieesou Christou dunamin kai parousian, all' epoptai geneethentes tees ekeinou megaleioteetos. 17 laboon gar para Theou Patros timeen kai doxan foonees enechtheisees autoo toiasde hupo tees megaloprepous doxees, "Ho huios mou ho agapeetos mou houtos estin, eis hon egoo eudokeesa," 18 kai tauteen teen fooneen heemeis eekousamen ex ouranou enechtheisan sun autoo ontes en too hagioo orei.

19 kai echomen bebaioteron ton profeetikon logon, hoo kaloos poieite prosechontes hoos luchnoo fainonti en auchmeeroo topoo, heoos hou heemera diaugasee kai foosforos anateilee en tais kardiais humoon; 20 touto prooton ginooskontes, hoti pasa profeeteia grafees idias epiluseoos ou ginetai; 21 ou gar theleemati anthroopou eenechthee profeeteia pote, alla hupo Pneumatos Hagiou feromenoi elaleesan apo Theou anthroopoi.

A word-for-word translation is ...

16 Not for skillfully-devised myths we-did-follow/imitate we-have-made-known to-you the of-the Lord of-us Yeshua` Messiah power and coming, but eyewitnesses we-having-been of-the that-one-there majesty. 17 He-having-received for from God Father honor and glory a-voice was-made-publicly-known to-Him such-as-follows under the Majestic glory, "The Son of-me the Loved-one of-me this-one is, into whom I have-found-delight," 18 and this-one the voice we heard out-of [the] sky having-been-brought with Him, being in the holy mountain.

19 and we-have/hold more-firm the prophetic word, to-which well you-do taking-heed as to-a-lamp shining in a-dark place, until this day shall-have-dawned and light-bringer shall-have-arisen in the hearts of-you; 20 this first knowing, that all prophetic writing of-its-own interpretation not is; 21 not for by-will of-man was-brought prophecy at-any-time, but under Spirit Holy being-carried spoke from God men.

So,...

1. I don't CARE if you think 1 and 2 Maccabees is "Scripture" (which simply means a "writing," btw) or not; it's the historic TRUTH that I'm talking about, and that truth is both acknowledged in Scripture and authenticated! Not all "scripture" is "interpreted" by "scripture." However, Scripture will often VALIDATE other Scriptures! However, it CAN'T happen all the time! It's IMPOSSIBLE!

Your statement, "This not only means that it will happen exactly as God's word says that it will,  it also means that when it is fulfilled (it becomes history), there will be a prophetic recognition," is a "Catch-22" situation! It's logically invalid. How can you have a completed Bible if you have a prophecy that has not yet been fulfilled, by this statement you make? Unless you have an "open Bible," that is, a Bible that may still be amended, you can't HAVE a "prophetic recognition" of an unfulfilled prophecy!

Anyway, that's enough for tonight; I'm tired. More later... 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Da Puppers.

Well, for starters, you MISAPPLIED Peter's words in 2 Peter 1:20-21! Look at it in context, and let's look at the Greek:

2 Peter 1:16-21 (KJV)

16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.

19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Verses 16-18 inform us that Kefa ("Peter") is talking about his experience in the "Mount of Transfiguration" when He PERSONALLY SAW Yeshua` transformed which he recognized as "the power and coming of our Lord (our Master) Yeshua` the Messiah!"

Then, Kefa noted that his readers should see his account of this event as a "light that shines in a dark place" until the time in their future they see the truth PERSONALLY as "the day dawn, and the day star arise" in their own hearts!

Then, he adds, "the prophecy came not ... by the will of man" in the past when the prophecy was given and written down and also adds that "holy men of God (the prophets) spake as they were moved by the Ruwach haQodesh (the Holy Spirit or the Holy Ghost)."

So, in between, when he said, "no prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation," he's talking about his VISION he had on the "Mount of Transfiguration!" Furthermore, he was not alone! His close companions, Ya`aqov and Yochanan ("James and John") were with him and also saw the vision and could verify what he saw and heard!

Here's the Greek (transliterated) of this passage:

Petrou B 1:16-21 (UBS The Greek New Testament)

16 Ou gar sesofismenois muthois exakoloutheesantes egnoorisamen humin teen tou Kuriou heemoon Ieesou Christou dunamin kai parousian, all' epoptai geneethentes tees ekeinou megaleioteetos. 17 laboon gar para Theou Patros timeen kai doxan foonees enechtheisees autoo toiasde hupo tees megaloprepous doxees, "Ho huios mou ho agapeetos mou houtos estin, eis hon egoo eudokeesa," 18 kai tauteen teen fooneen heemeis eekousamen ex ouranou enechtheisan sun autoo ontes en too hagioo orei.

19 kai echomen bebaioteron ton profeetikon logon, hoo kaloos poieite prosechontes hoos luchnoo fainonti en auchmeeroo topoo, heoos hou heemera diaugasee kai foosforos anateilee en tais kardiais humoon; 20 touto prooton ginooskontes, hoti pasa profeeteia grafees idias epiluseoos ou ginetai; 21 ou gar theleemati anthroopou eenechthee profeeteia pote, alla hupo Pneumatos Hagiou feromenoi elaleesan apo Theou anthroopoi.

A word-for-word translation is ...

16 Not for skillfully-devised myths we-did-follow/imitate we-have-made-known to-you the of-the Lord of-us Yeshua` Messiah power and coming, but eyewitnesses we-having-been of-the that-one-there majesty. 17 He-having-received for from God Father honor and glory a-voice was-made-publicly-known to-Him such-as-follows under the Majestic glory, "The Son of-me the Loved-one of-me this-one is, into whom I have-found-delight," 18 and this-one the voice we heard out-of [the] sky having-been-brought with Him, being in the holy mountain.

19 and we-have/hold more-firm the prophetic word, to-which well you-do taking-heed as to-a-lamp shining in a-dark place, until this day shall-have-dawned and light-bringer shall-have-arisen in the hearts of-you; 20 this first knowing, that all prophetic writing of-its-own interpretation not is; 21 not for by-will of-man was-brought prophecy at-any-time, but under Spirit Holy being-carried spoke from God men.

So,...

1. I don't CARE if you think 1 and 2 Maccabees is "Scripture" (which simply means a "writing," btw) or not; it's the historic TRUTH that I'm talking about, and that truth is both acknowledged in Scripture and authenticated! Not all "scripture" is "interpreted" by "scripture." However, Scripture will often VALIDATE other Scriptures! However, it CAN'T happen all the time! It's IMPOSSIBLE!

Your statement, "This not only means that it will happen exactly as God's word says that it will,  it also means that when it is fulfilled (it becomes history), there will be a prophetic recognition," is a "Catch-22" situation! It's logically invalid. How can you have a completed Bible if you have a prophecy that has not yet been fulfilled, by this statement you make? Unless you have an "open Bible," that is, a Bible that may still be amended, you can't HAVE a "prophetic recognition" of an unfulfilled prophecy!

Anyway, that's enough for tonight; I'm tired. More later... 

He is not just addressing his participation on the mount of transfiguration.   He is addressing prophecy regarding the "power and coming of our Lord".

He says, 

1.  We ALSO have a more sure word of prophecy THAN MY eye witness testimony... we have the written words of the prophets...more reliable than if Peter were standing here in person. 

2. NO (as in none) prophecy of (written scriptures)  is of private interpretation. 

3. Holy MEN of God spake as THEY were moved. 

4. And yes, God will confirm his word when "all things written are fulfilled", Luke 21:22

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

Edited by Da Puppers

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7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Shilohsfoal.

Nope. Neither one. First, Yeshua` wasn't talking about "the abomination which causes desolation" found in either Daniel 8 or Daniel 11. He was talking about the REASON for the "desolation" in which He left the Jews of Jerusalem in Matthew 23:37-39, the "abominations of the woes" pronounced in the first part of Matthew 23 and their rejection of God's Messiah! Therefore, it wasn't about the "Second Advent" nor could one say that Yeshua` couldn't understand Daniel 9:24-27!

Furthermore, Yeshua` didn't "PROJECT" the prophecy of Daniel into any future other than their own just 40 years after Yeshua`s rejection and crucifixion.

Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 are ALL the same event - the Olivet Discourse:

Matthew 24:9-28 (KJV)

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

Mark 13:10-23 (KJV)

10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations. But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost. 12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death. 13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: 15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house: 16 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take anything out of his house: 16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment. 17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter. 19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. 20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. 21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not: 22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. 23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

Luke 21:10-24 (KJV)

10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: 11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven. 12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to he synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake. 13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony. 14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer: 15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. 16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. 17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake. 18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish. 19 In your patience possess ye your souls.

20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give such, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land (of ISRAEL), and wrath upon this people (THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL). 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles (non-Israelis), until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

All of this occurred in the FIRST CENTURY A.D! I've highlighted a few, identical points in all three, and by means of a "squeeze play," one can identify the following equivalences:

"the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place" =
"the abomination of desolation
, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not" =
"
Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh."

And, this happened in the SIEGE of Jerusalem from 66 to 70 A.D! The Romans' BLOCKADE of Jerusalem ended with the destruction - the DESOLATION - of Jerusalem! It's not "rocket science," people! This prophecy of our Lord is FULFILLED!

One can also see (if one is willing to admit it and REFUSES to be blind to it anymore) that another equivalence is ...

"great tribulation" = 
"affliction" =
"
great distress in the land (of ISRAEL), and wrath upon this people (THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL)."

First you said Jesus wasnt talking about the abomination of desolation tgat Daniel spoke of then you quoted Jesus saying he is talking about the abomination of desolation spoken of by daniel.

LOL

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

First you said Jesus wasnt talking about the abomination of desolation tgat [that] Daniel spoke of, then you quoted Jesus saying he is talking about the abomination of desolation spoken of by daniel.

LOL

Shalom, Shilohsfoal.

Sorry, but you weren't paying attention to what I wrote. Yeshua` wasn't talking about the "abomination of desolation" that is SAID to be mentioned in either Daniel 8 or 11. Yeshua` was talking about the "abomination of desolation" that was mentioned in Daniel 9!

First, the "abomination of desolation" should NOT be used as a TITLE! One needs to fully understand HOW the words "abomination" (Hebrew: shiqquts) and/or "desolation" (Hebrew: shomeem) were used within a particular passage of Scripture. Their presence in a passage doesn't mean that they are talking about the same event, NOR does it mean that they are talking about what you or anyone else today is talking about as a future-to-us event!

Dani'el 9:27 (JPS Hebrew-English TANAKH transliterated)

27 Vhigbiyr briyt laarabiym shaaVuwa' echaad vachatsiy hashaaVuwa` yashviyt zeVach uwminchaah v`al knaf shiqquwtsiym mshomeem v`ad kaalaah vnecheraatsaah tittakh `al shomeem.

27 Vhigbiyr = 27 And-he-shall-strengthen
briyt = a-covenant
laarabiym = to/for-the-many
shaaVuwa' = Seven ("Week")
echaad = one
vachatsiy = and-in-the-middle
hashaaVuwa' = of-the-Seven
yashviyt = he-shall-bring-an-end-to
zeVach = sacrifice
uwminchaah = and-offering
v`al = and-against/upon
knaf = a-spread-out-wing
shiqquwtsiym = of-abominations
mshomeem = he-shall-make-desolate

v`ad = and-until
kaalaah = the-end
vnecheraatsaah = that-which-is-determined/judged/sentenced
tittakh = is-poured-out
`al = against/upon
shomeem. = [the]-desolate.

Putting all this together, we get ...

27 And-he-shall-strengthen a-covenant to/for-the-many one Seven ("Week") and-in-the-middle of-the-Seven he-shall-bring-an-end-to sacrifice and-offering and-against/upon a-spread-out-wing of-abominations he-shall-make-desolate and-until the-end that-which-is-determined/judged/sentenced is-poured-out against/upon [the]-desolate.

And, that's PRECISELY what happened in Matthew 23!

"And against/upon a spread-out-wing of abominations,..."

Matthew 23:

1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2 Saying,

"The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. 4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. 5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments, 6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, 7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi. 8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. 9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. 10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. 11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. 

14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, 'Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!' 17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold? 18 And, 'Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.' 19 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift? 20 Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon. 21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein. 22 And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.

23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. 24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. 26  Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. 28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, 30 And say, 'If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.' 31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. 32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. 33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute themfrom city to city: 35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. 36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!"

"... he shall make desolate ..."

38 "Behold, your house is left unto you desolate!"

"... and until the end that which is determined/judged/sentenced is poured out against/upon [the] desolate."

39 "For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord."

And, that desolation caused its OWN abomination! The destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D some 40 years later! And, it's to THAT abomination from the desolation to which Yeshua` was referring.

Edited by Retrobyter
to finish the thought

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15 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

He is not just addressing his participation on the mount of transfiguration.   He is addressing prophecy regarding the "power and coming of our Lord".

He says, 

1.  We ALSO have a more sure word of prophecy THAN MY eye witness testimony... we have the written words of the prophets...more reliable than if Peter were standing here in person. 

2. NO (as in none) prophecy of (written scriptures)  is of private interpretation. 

3. Holy MEN of God spake as THEY were moved. 

4. And yes, God will confirm his word when "all things written are fulfilled", Luke 21:22

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

Shalom, Da Puppers.

Haven't you read about the incident on the Mount of Transfiguration within its context?

In all three of the Synoptic Gospels we read this:

MATTHEW 16:24-17:13 (KJV)

24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples,

"If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. 26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? 27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."

1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, 2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. 3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. 4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus,

"Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias."

5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said,

"This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him."

6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid. 7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said,

"Arise, and be not afraid."

8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.

9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying,

"Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead."

10 And his disciples asked him, saying,

"Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?"

11 And Jesus answered and said unto them,

"Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. 12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them."

13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

MARK 8:34-9:13 (KJV)

34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them,

"Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it. 36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? 37 Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? 38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels."

1 And he said unto them,

"Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power."

2 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them. 3 And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them. 4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus. 5 And Peter answered and said to Jesus,

"Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias."

6 For he wist not what to say; for they were sore afraid. 7 And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying,

"This is my beloved Son: hear him."

8 And suddenly, when they had looked round about, they saw no man any more, save Jesus only with themselves.

9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead. 10 And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the rising from the dead should mean. 11 And they asked him, saying,

"Why say the scribes that Elias must first come?"

12 And he answered and told them,

"Elias verily cometh first, and restoreth all things; and how it is written of the Son of man, that he must suffer many things, and be set at nought. 13 But I say unto you, That Elias is indeed come, and they have done unto him whatsoever they listed, as it is written of him."

LUKE 9:23-36 (KJV)

23 And he said to them all,

"If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. 24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it. 25 For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away? 26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels. 27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God."

28 And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray. 29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering. 30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: 31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem. 32 But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him. 33 And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus,

"Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias:"

not knowing what he said. 34 While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud. 35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying,

"This is my beloved Son: hear him."

36 And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept it close, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen.

The transfiguration IS A VISION of the "power and coming of our Lord!" These three disciples were given a prophet's vision of the future Kingdom! THEY WERE PROPHETS OF GOD!

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Wouldn’t host mean Satan or one of his? (I’m going to read through this later) a “host” to me means a personal being. 

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8 minutes ago, Kristin said:

Wouldn’t host mean Satan or one of his? (I’m going to read through this later) a “host” to me means a personal being. 

Shalom, Kristin.

No, the Hebrew word for "host" is "tsaaVaa'" and refers to an "army."

Here's the entry in A Concise Dictionary of the Words in the Hebrew Bible in Strong's Concordance (with corrections):

6635 tsaaVaa' (tsaw-vaw'). appointed time, army, battle, company, host, service, soldiers, waiting upon, 

Or (feminine) tsVaa'aah {tsev-aw-aw'}; from tsaaVaa'; a mass of persons (or figuratively, things), especially reg. Organized for war (an army); by implication, a campaign, literally or figuratively (specifically, hardship, worship)
-- appointed time, (+) army, (+) battle, company, host, service, soldiers, waiting upon, war(-fare).

God is frequently called "the LORD of hosts." In Hebrew, this is "YHWH TsVaa'owt," using the feminine plural of this word. The feminine gender is often used to refer to an abstract concept rather than a concrete thing. He is "YHWH of Armies!"

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44 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Da Puppers.

Haven't you read about the incident on the Mount of Transfiguration within its context?

In all three of the Synoptic Gospels we read this:

MATTHEW 16:24-17:13 (KJV)

24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples,

"If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. 26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? 27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."

1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, 2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. 3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. 4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus,

"Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias."

5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said,

"This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him."

6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid. 7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said,

"Arise, and be not afraid."

8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.

9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying,

"Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead."

10 And his disciples asked him, saying,

"Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?"

11 And Jesus answered and said unto them,

"Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. 12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them."

13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

MARK 8:34-9:13 (KJV)

34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them,

"Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it. 36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? 37 Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? 38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels."

1 And he said unto them,

"Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power."

2 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them. 3 And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them. 4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus. 5 And Peter answered and said to Jesus,

"Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias."

6 For he wist not what to say; for they were sore afraid. 7 And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying,

"This is my beloved Son: hear him."

8 And suddenly, when they had looked round about, they saw no man any more, save Jesus only with themselves.

9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead. 10 And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the rising from the dead should mean. 11 And they asked him, saying,

"Why say the scribes that Elias must first come?"

12 And he answered and told them,

"Elias verily cometh first, and restoreth all things; and how it is written of the Son of man, that he must suffer many things, and be set at nought. 13 But I say unto you, That Elias is indeed come, and they have done unto him whatsoever they listed, as it is written of him."

LUKE 9:23-36 (KJV)

23 And he said to them all,

"If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. 24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it. 25 For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away? 26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels. 27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God."

28 And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray. 29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering. 30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: 31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem. 32 But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him. 33 And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus,

"Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias:"

not knowing what he said. 34 While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud. 35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying,

"This is my beloved Son: hear him."

36 And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept it close, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen.

The transfiguration IS A VISION of the "power and coming of our Lord!" These three disciples were given a prophet's vision of the future Kingdom! THEY WERE PROPHETS OF GOD!

No question this is about the transfiguration.   But your argument is going against what Peter is saying to his readers.   This is where your focus is in error.   His readers were not there to see the transfiguration of Jesus as a prophetic vision of his coming with glory and power.   He tells them that the words of the prophets,  as WRITTEN SCRIPTURE,  is a more certain word of prophecy THAN his vision, to which they should give need until the day star arises.   You know what scripture is don't you?   The written word.   To which Peter says,  "NO prophecy of the written word,  is of any private interpretation "

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

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