Intelligent Design, Science & Religion

[Tzephanyahu]

2 hours ago, FluffyBunny. said:

Yes I believe that evolution occurs and that the theory of evolution is an accurate model.

Perfectly reasonable.  So what would you say is the one key factor that makes you believe that.

I appreciate that, realistically, there's going to be a lot more to it than that!  But if you had to choose one key factor on which your confidence is based, what would it be?

2 hours ago, FluffyBunny. said:

I met plenty of christians that were really mean to me on this website. I used to be here some time ago, when I was considering to become a christian and some of the people here definitely made it easier for me to remain an atheist

I'm so sorry to read that. 

I too have fell foul on this site as well from those who are quicker to criticise than conversate.

My wife was an atheist for a long time not because of the Bible per se, or God or even the concept of sinful nature, but rather it was Christians and the Church. The hypocrisy she saw and the judgmental attitude.

I know you don't necessarily believe in the Bible as full truth or Jesus, but He did predict this would happen in the last days.  That the church, in general, wouldn't be all good.

What I'm trying to say is don't let any one representing God in name keep you from actually connecting with God. Regardless of however mean some are being, this is between God and you.

What made you come back?

Love & Shalom 

 

[FluffyBunny.]

Just now, Tzephanyahu said:

Perfectly reasonable.  So what would you say is the one key factor that makes you believe that.

I appreciate that, realistically, there's going to be a lot more to it than that!  But if you had to choose one key factor on which your confidence is based, what would it be?

Choosing one thing is hard. Hm. If I had to choose one thing, then it´s genetic evidence. It demonstrates that all life is related to certain degrees, so we can even determine, how closely related we are to other animals. I think that is very convincing.

 

2 minutes ago, Tzephanyahu said:

My wife was an atheist for a long time not because of the Bible per se, or God or even the concept of sinful nature, but rather it was Christians and the Church. The hypocrisy she saw and the judgmental attitude.

Oh okay. I  am an atheists, because I can not find convincing evidence to justify a believe in God.

 

4 minutes ago, Tzephanyahu said:

I know you don't necessarily believe in the Bible as full truth or Jesus, but He did predict this would happen in the last days.  That the church, in general, wouldn't be all good.
 

Hmm. I don´t think that the church or christians have an influence on my atheism. Even if christianity, the church and christians were the worst thing ever, then I would still have to accept that God exists, if I had convincing evidence. I might not be a christian, but then I would be a believer in a God.

 

6 minutes ago, Tzephanyahu said:

What made you come back?

 

Someone that I like told me that I should not give up praying and studying the Bible, so I kept doing that. No one that I know in real life is a christian, so I felt, like I had no one to talk with about this specific topic. That´s why I tried to search for a christian community online.

 

Another reason why I came here, was because I was really ill the last time I was here and I never felt like I was mentally at my 100%. Every discussion I had felt so incredibly frustrating, because I felt like I could not express myself the way I wanted to. I came back to see how well I perform at discussions, when I feel good.

[Tzephanyahu]

1 hour ago, FluffyBunny. said:

If I had to choose one thing, then it´s genetic evidence. It demonstrates that all life is related to certain degrees, so we can even determine, how closely related we are to other animals. I think that is very convincing.

Yeah I see that. 

However, on the flip side of the coin, couldn't that also been indicative of one creative signature?

Apple make ipads, macs, iphones, watches, earphones and much more. At the simple circuitry level there will be many similarities in there manufacturing.

Conclusive proof? Definitely not. Reasonable hypothesis? I think so.

It would make sense for a creator to use existing design assests in other creations. But wouldn't evolutionary mutations with such radical diversity show more dramatic variations at the genetic core?  

I don't know, I'm no expert! But I do think the mainstream interpretation of the genetic data is with heavy bias, and not impartial in any form. Such questions aren't even permitted to be investigated, which is hardly a scientific approach. 

But I'm guessing there is something more behind your confidence than this alone?

1 hour ago, FluffyBunny. said:

Oh okay. I  am an atheists, because I can not find convincing evidence to justify a believe in God.

In an ideal world, what kind of evidence would you need?

1 hour ago, FluffyBunny. said:

Even if christianity, the church and christians were the worst thing ever, then I would still have to accept that God exists, if I had convincing evidence. I might not be a christian, but then I would be a believer in a God.

That's a reassuring statement. Your last line especially resonated with me.  Yes the term Christian has become very muddled with negativity over time. But at the end of the day, it's a very broad title.

The believers after the Messiah resurrected were called followers of The Way. 

So yeah, whether "Christian" or a believer, what matters is the truth of your heart rather than your title.

1 hour ago, FluffyBunny. said:

Someone that I like told me that I should not give up praying and studying the Bible, so I kept doing that. No one that I know in real life is a christian, so I felt, like I had no one to talk with about this specific topic.

Is your friend no longer around?

Hah, don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to get rid of you!

1 hour ago, FluffyBunny. said:

Another reason why I came here, was because I was really ill the last time I was here and I never felt like I was mentally at my 100%. Every discussion I had felt so incredibly frustrating, because I felt like I could not express myself the way I wanted to.

Oh I see. Well I'm glad you tried again.

You can't go wrong with an open mind and plenty of questions. Even if you come out the other side still an atheist, at least you've learned more than those who won't ask at all! It's always important to hear the other side.

[Omegaman 3.0]

Quote

Oh okay. I  am an atheists, because I can not find convincing evidence to justify a believe in God.

Hi @FluffyBunny. 
Just a thought, but shouldn't that make you an agnostic, until you find there is convincing proof that there is no God? I have seen you give evidence that you think implies evolution happens (it does) but have you offered evidence that evolution happens outside of the design of a Creator? I realize that proof and evidences of that nature are difficult to impossible to achieve, so you need not try to come up with any here.

As an illustration, I could suggest that there is a god who exists and who looks like a toasted cheese sandwich, He does not want to be seen. He lives in outer space, and just when we invent another way to peer deeper into space, he moves beyond our ability to observe him. He told me in an audible voice, that he wants mankind to worship him by eating toasted cheese sandwiches.

Now, the only evidence I have given you, is my own testimony. The lack of more or better evidence, does not prove that such a god does not exist, and you can offer no way to prove me wrong. I get that! We are left then, to make an educated guess, about what things we can observe, and what those things can reasonably imply. What theory best explains the facts we observe, that is the question! 

We come to different conclusions about that, but in the end, they are just guesses, that we believe by faith! Even using scientific method, we are placing our faith in the validity of the scientific method to discover what is true, but we cannot use the scientific method, to prove that the scientific method is the best way to discover truth.

I hold that the scientific method is limited to the things that can be tested, much of the time if not all of the time, these things are in the natural world, they cannot explore the supernatural. A supernatural God, may reveal Himself supernaturally to anyone He chooses, and not to everyone, if He chooses not to do so.

However, I do not think this means that He leaves no evidence of His existence. I agree with others, who believe that commonality of features, could mean a common designer. I also think the genetic aspects are interesting, as you do. I am especially impressed by the ability of DNA to carry a code, a language, that transmits instructions a blue print, of what a lifeforms' characteristics will be.I am also quite amazed to not, the complexity of the "machinery" that let's DNA replicate itself. The idea that this just happens when under certain unknown conditions, all of this happened without a designer, strikes me (personally) as a superstitious fantasy, I just cannot believe it. It is just one of many things in the "natural' world which led me to abandon my Atheism, become an agnostic, and eventually "evolve" into a theist, and finally a Christian.

I also think that the continuity of scripture from Genesis to Revelation, with one unfolding story of the relationship of God to His creations is very remarkably consistent, considering all the the languages, occupations, locations and time-span involved. You could fine more disagreement on a page of a newspaper.

Additionally, the fulfillments (some in great specific details) of the Old Testament) which came to pass (over 300 in the life of Jesus alone) speak to supernatural source, hard to account for by coincidence. Uf that assessment is correct, then the implantation is not only might there be a God, but possibly He provided us with what He wants us to know about Him and His will for us.

You also said:

Quote

I met plenty of christians that were really mean to me on this website.

If and when that happens, you should report them to an administrator, assuming it is actually mean, and especially if it is against our Terms of Service. There is not need to be mean, even if/when we disagree with others. However, do be careful to note if someone is actually being "mean", as opposed to you just being offended or hurt by something someone said.

In a forum where people are free to express their thoughts, we need to have thick skins that cannot be easily penetrated, or else have slippery, hard shells, where nothing sticks, and it just rolls off our backs.

Take care!

[The Barbarian]

On 10/28/2020 at 4:03 PM, Tzephanyahu said:

Perfectly reasonable.  So what would you say is the one key factor that makes you believe that.

Directly observed evolution.   Numerous predictions of evolutionary theory that have since been verified.    That sort of thing.   Would you like some examples of each?

 

[Tzephanyahu]

On 11/15/2020 at 10:55 PM, The Barbarian said:

Would you like some examples of each?

I'd love to. Please submit them.

[The Barbarian]

On 10/28/2020 at 6:39 AM, FluffyBunny. said:

There is a small handful of Christian scientists but the majority of them are atheist.

Let's see your numbers.    I've spent a lifetime in the sciences, and that's not my experience.   What do you have?

 

[The Barbarian]

On 11/18/2020 at 1:56 AM, Tzephanyahu said:

I'd love to. Please submit them.

• The earliest fossils of humans would be found in Africa- Darwin confirmed.
• There must have been, at one time feathered dinosaurs - Huxley confirmed
• There were once fish with walking legs.    Wallace - confirmed.
• A well-adapted population in a constant environment will be kept from evolving very much by natural selection.  - Darwin confirmed
• Overuse of penicillin would cause bacteria to evolve resistance.   Sir Alexander Flemming- Confirmed
• Mutation and natural selection will cause bacteria to evolve a new enzyme system.   Hall confirmed
• There must have been at one time, transitional forms between frogs and salamanders. -confirmed.
• Speciation happens most often in small, isolated populations.   Mayr - confirmed
• Whales were once land animals with functional legs.   Cope -confirmed.

 

 

 

 

[The Barbarian]

• Italian wall lizards, moved to a new environment, evolved a new digestive organ in a few decades.
• Human populations evolve an optimal frequency of HbS alleles in malaria areas.
• Tibetans evolved a special allele for living at very high altitudes.
• Lactase genes evolved in human populations that consume milk.

 

 

[Tzephanyahu]

Oh dear @The Barbarian, i remain unconvinced and disappointed.  

A bullet pointed list with "confirmed" at the end of it means little to me.

Where are the journals and links to examples of evidence itself?  This just seems like a list that you are repeating from what you have been told is "fact".  But have YOU looked into the work itself or are you taking another's word for it?

On 11/24/2020 at 11:45 PM, The Barbarian said:

The earliest fossils of humans would be found in Africa- Darwin confirmed.

Nonsense. Show me the link to the evidence.

On 11/24/2020 at 11:45 PM, The Barbarian said:

There must have been, at one time feathered dinosaurs - Huxley confirmed

There MUST have been? Hmm ok then.

On 11/24/2020 at 11:45 PM, The Barbarian said:

There were once fish with walking legs.    Wallace - confirmed.

Nonsense. Show me the proof of this claim, not theory.

On 11/24/2020 at 11:45 PM, The Barbarian said:

A well-adapted population in a constant environment will be kept from evolving very much by natural selection.  - Darwin confirmed

"Very much by natural selection"? Okay, glad you're sure. But based on what?

On 11/24/2020 at 11:45 PM, The Barbarian said:

Overuse of penicillin would cause bacteria to evolve resistance.   Sir Alexander Flemming- Confirmed

Or rather - adapt.

On 11/24/2020 at 11:45 PM, The Barbarian said:

Mutation and natural selection will cause bacteria to evolve a new enzyme system.   Hall confirmed

Or.. adapt.

On 11/24/2020 at 11:45 PM, The Barbarian said:

There must have been at one time, transitional forms between frogs and salamanders. -confirmed.

Hehe, this one was funny. There MUST have been right? Keep looking.

On 11/24/2020 at 11:45 PM, The Barbarian said:

Speciation happens most often in small, isolated populations.   Mayr - confirmed

This is not evidence of evolution from one kind into another.

On 11/24/2020 at 11:45 PM, The Barbarian said:

Whales were once land animals with functional legs.   Cope -confirmed.

Nonsense. Check again. This was refuted many years ago.

On 11/24/2020 at 11:52 PM, The Barbarian said:

Italian wall lizards, moved to a new environment, evolved a new digestive organ in a few decades.

Interesting.  Please send me the link to the evidence or study of this. And I'm sure evolution won't be the only answer. Besides evolution in a few decades? Doesn’t that break your "millions of years" requirement? 

On 11/24/2020 at 11:52 PM, The Barbarian said:

Human populations evolve an optimal frequency of HbS alleles in malaria areas

Or...adapt. Or is a callus a skin evolution to you?

On 11/24/2020 at 11:52 PM, The Barbarian said:

Tibetans evolved a special allele for living at very high altitudes.

Hmm. Proof if proof was needed..

On 11/24/2020 at 11:52 PM, The Barbarian said:

Lactase genes evolved in human populations that consume milk

Hmm. Well there you go. Not adaption but evolution into another being.

 

Not convinced. But, by all means, if you have link to actual evidence and studies (as surely you're not just taking someone else's word as total truth) then please upload it.