The fulness of the Gentiles

[Heleadethme]

6 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Do you not understand this simply English?

AMPC

From the point of view of the Gospel (good news), they [the Jews, at present] are enemies [of God], which is for your advantage and benefit. But from the point of view of God’s choice (of election, of divine selection), they are still the beloved (dear to Him) for the sake of their forefathers.

PHILLIPS

As far as the Gospel goes, they are at present God’s enemies—which is to your advantage. But as far as God’s purpose in choosing is concerned, they are still beloved for their fathers’ sakes. For once they are made, God does not withdraw his gifts of his calling.

They are NOT our enemies! The are enemies against the gospel. For us they are a field ripe for harvest!

 

 

 

I agree....nevertheless persecution by religious Jews has happened, does happen on a small but often serious scale, and i believe is going to happen again on a larger scale and we need to be prepared for it.

[Alive]

Are you folks saying that you think Jews are going to persecute Christians?

[choir loft]

23 hours ago, iamlamad said:

You are hinting strongly that the Jews are our enemies. They are not. I hope you get this straight. If they are God's friends, then they are OUR friends. 

Edited September 24, 2019 by choir loft

[choir loft]

On 9/23/2019 at 9:21 AM, iamlamad said:

I am guessing you are differentiating between the church and the Bride of Christ?

The Bible does NOT describe a marital relationship between Christ and a religious corporation/franchise.  

In terms of a religious corporate entity, which was established by edict of Constantine, there is no such thing as a church as recognized by God.

I don't believe in a 'church' as a spiritual entity at all.  Here's why...

The problem with the phrase "bride of Christ" is that the role and identity of believers has been corrupted by the doctrines of man - specifically Rome and Protestantism.   As of this writing there are so many variations as to the definition of "bride of Christ" that it would be confusing to even publish the full list.  Basically the church has come to be known as a corporate business venture and the Bible most certainly DOES NOT describe any divine union with a corporation.

What I mean by this is that 'official' primary doctrine of Catholics, Protestants and the Orthodox church is linked to physical membership with a corporation or business.  The same is true for Judaism, because being a Jew means being born as one from a Jewish woman (having a Jewish father & gentile mother disqualifies).  For our purposes today, we only need to focus on the most widely used definition: bride=member.   

Enter the European Reformation about 500 or so years ago.....

The whole sad affair was a control issue, justified as men always do, by liberal and multiple references to scripture to justify their murder and hatred of one another.  In the end it was about who seized power from who.  Nobody really cared about definitions of bride-hood with Christ.  It was and remains about church membership - and who runs that particular division of it.

The Bible twist

Without going into a lot of detail about development of doctrines and dogmas, the present protestant belief is a perverted view of that held by the Vatican - the church universal.  The old term "church universal" shouldn't be confused with the Universalist Church, which is a cult that sprang out of the ground in the 19th century.  The "church universal" is interpreted by protestants to mean a spiritual entity not aligned with either the Vatican or Judaism (especially Jews).  Notice we haven't yet approached a relationship with Jesus.  It's still about church membership or rather that which protestants do NOT recognize in fellowship.  So what IS the bride of Christ?

I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him. - 2 Corinthians 11:2b

Proponents of "church universal" often quote the above verse to justify their dogma.  BUT go back and read the entire passage verses 1-15 and you'll see that the entire section is an apologetic by Paul who is opposing false apostles and their teaching.  Again it seems to go back to physical membership in a group as linked by doctrine.  MY POINT here is that more often than not the phrase "bride of Christ" is confused with a membership card in one's wallet, NOT with a relationship with Christ.   But that is only a part of the confusion.

The Bible does suggest that believers are prepared for some sort of intense intimate union with Christ.  Theres a word that describes this process, but I'm not going to write it here because the word itself is a source of much contention.  Suffice it to say that God does perform some sort of prep work upon believers prior to some sort of very intimate union with Christ.   There are whispers in the Bible that this intimacy is even greater than physical marriage or sex.  At no time does the Bible EVER require a civil license be issued or a religious membership to be established.

The Bible does suggest that believers, both Jew and gentile, are integrated into some relationship that it likens to a grape vine.  Either the believer is spliced into this vine or the believer is part of it originally.  It should be noted that caring for grape vines is labor intensive work.  There's a lot of trimming and tying and splicing involved and at the end of every season the vine is chopped literally to the ground.   If this work isn't done, the flavor and consistency of the fruit becomes worthless.  

The Bible only refers to a "bride of christ" once in Corinthians and again in Revelation.  It is NOT a consistent reference, but it DOES get linked to references to grape vines and the flavor of wine that comes from it.  Protestants don't understand the analogy to grape vines because their minds are still captured by American prohibitionist law (Volstead Act of 1919), which is why they insist upon drinking grape juice at communion rather than alcoholic wine as the Romans do.  (It's about American politics, not scripture.) Therefore, with only a wedding ceremony to consider, protestant theology tends to become muddled and restricted to membership among a group of like-minded believers.   Thus Catholics are excluded first due to continuing Reformation hatred of the Vatican and second by prejudice of Jews as influenced by Replacement Theology (which is centuries older than Reformation issues).

If I were to answer your question accurately after all that I've written I'd say that I don't believe there is such thing as the church at all. (*)

One wonders if the neighborhoods of heaven will be divided into separate ghettos of believers who include those who belong to their clique and exclude those they disagree with.....

There is only the bride/grape vine of Christ.  There is no church.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft....

(*) Bear in mind that in the NT, believers as well as Jesus continued to congregate in synagogues.  Even gentile converts to the new religion met there.  Bible studies were conducted in private homes, but worship was held in synagogues.  ALL Biblical references to CHURCH are references to groups or assemblies of believers.

Only after the edict of Constantine did the church become a corporate entity.

The Bible does NOT assure any bond between Christ and a religious corporation.  

In fact, Revelation hints that the corporate church may be destroyed during the End Times.  The Mother of Harlots will be betrayed by those who she sought to enslave.

Edited September 24, 2019 by choir loft

[iamlamad]

54 minutes ago, choir loft said:

The Bible does NOT describe a marital relationship between Christ and a religious corporation/franchise.  

In terms of a religious corporate entity, which was established by edict of Constantine, there is no such thing as a church as recognized by God.

I don't believe in a 'church' as a spiritual entity at all.  Here's why...

The problem with the phrase "bride of Christ" is that the role and identity of believers has been corrupted by the doctrines of man - specifically Rome and Protestantism.   As of this writing there are so many variations as to the definition of "bride of Christ" that it would be confusing to even publish the full list.  Basically the church has come to be known as a corporate business venture and the Bible most certainly DOES NOT describe any divine union with a corporation.

What I mean by this is that 'official' primary doctrine of Catholics, Protestants and the Orthodox church is linked to physical membership with a corporation or business.  The same is true for Judaism, because being a Jew means being born as one from a Jewish woman (having a Jewish father & gentile mother disqualifies).  For our purposes today, we only need to focus on the most widely used definition: bride=member.   

Enter the European Reformation about 500 or so years ago.....

The whole sad affair was a control issue, justified as men always do, by liberal and multiple references to scripture to justify their murder and hatred of one another.  In the end it was about who seized power from who.  Nobody really cared about definitions of bride-hood with Christ.  It was and remains about church membership - and who runs that particular division of it.

The Bible twist

Without going into a lot of detail about development of doctrines and dogmas, the present protestant belief is a perverted view of that held by the Vatican - the church universal.  The old term "church universal" shouldn't be confused with the Universalist Church, which is a cult that sprang out of the ground in the 19th century.  The "church universal" is interpreted by protestants to mean a spiritual entity not aligned with either the Vatican or Judaism (especially Jews).  Notice we haven't yet approached a relationship with Jesus.  It's still about church membership or rather that which protestants do NOT recognize in fellowship.  So what IS the bride of Christ?

I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him. - 2 Corinthians 11:2b

Proponents of "church universal" often quote the above verse to justify their dogma.  BUT go back and read the entire passage verses 1-15 and you'll see that the entire section is an apologetic by Paul who is opposing false apostles and their teaching.  Again it seems to go back to physical membership in a group as linked by doctrine.  MY POINT here is that more often than not the phrase "bride of Christ" is confused with a membership card in one's wallet, NOT with a relationship with Christ.   But that is only a part of the confusion.

The Bible does suggest that believers are prepared for some sort of intense intimate union with Christ.  Theres a word that describes this process, but I'm not going to write it here because the word itself is a source of much contention.  Suffice it to say that God does perform some sort of prep work upon believers prior to some sort of very intimate union with Christ.   There are whispers in the Bible that this intimacy is even greater than physical marriage or sex.  At no time does the Bible EVER require a civil license be issued or a religious membership to be established.

The Bible does suggest that believers, both Jew and gentile, are integrated into some relationship that it likens to a grape vine.  Either the believer is spliced into this vine or the believer is part of it originally.  It should be noted that caring for grape vines is labor intensive work.  There's a lot of trimming and tying and splicing involved and at the end of every season the vine is chopped literally to the ground.   If this work isn't done, the flavor and consistency of the fruit becomes worthless.  

The Bible only refers to a "bride of christ" once in Corinthians and again in Revelation.  It is NOT a consistent reference, but it DOES get linked to references to grape vines and the flavor of wine that comes from it.  Protestants don't understand the analogy to grape vines because their minds are still captured by American prohibitionist law (Volstead Act of 1919), which is why they insist upon drinking grape juice at communion rather than alcoholic wine as the Romans do.  (It's about American politics, not scripture.) Therefore, with only a wedding ceremony to consider, protestant theology tends to become muddled and restricted to membership among a group of like-minded believers.   Thus Catholics are excluded first due to continuing Reformation hatred of the Vatican and second by prejudice of Jews as influenced by Replacement Theology (which is centuries older than Reformation issues).

If I were to answer your question accurately after all that I've written I'd say that I don't believe there is such thing as the church at all. (*)

One wonders if the neighborhoods of heaven will be divided into separate ghettos of believers who include those who belong to their clique and exclude those they disagree with.....

There is only the bride/grape vine of Christ.  There is no church.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft....

(*) Bear in mind that in the NT, believers as well as Jesus continued to congregate in synagogues.  Even gentile converts to the new religion met there.  Bible studies were conducted in private homes, but worship was held in synagogues.  ALL Biblical references to CHURCH are references to groups or assemblies of believers.

Only after the edict of Constantine did the church become a corporate entity.

The Bible does NOT assure any bond between Christ and a religious corporation.  

In fact, Revelation hints that the corporate church may be destroyed during the End Times.  The Mother of Harlots will be betrayed by those who she sought to enslave.

My my! Don't be afraid to quote the bible!

"Church" is found in a lot of verses. Here is a good one for the church universal:

Hebrews 12:22 

²² But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

²³ To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Another definition would be the body of Christ on earth.

Eph 4:12  For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

All of the population on earth is divided into two groups: those that are born again (a new spirit inside with the Holy Spirit seal in it) and those that are not. Or, those that are IN CHRIST and those that are not.

The big question is, when Jesus comes FOR those that are his, will ALL (100%) of those born again be raised up?  Some certainly think so. I don't. For example, how about someone who is born again but will not forgive someone? They are not qualified.

I disagree with your take on the church in Revelation: from the pretrib rapture (just before the 6th seal) on to the end of the week at the 7th vial, the church is in heaven with Jesus. Of course there will be millions left behind who think of themselves as "christian" but have never been born again. They are not a part of the true church.

"Corporate entity" is not found in the bible. Therefore, forget it! Stick to what is written! Are you born again? That is the important thing.

 

 

 

 

[dhchristian]

21 hours ago, Alive said:

Are you folks saying that you think Jews are going to persecute Christians?

That possibility does exist... I am not saying this for certain, but you need be aware.

 

[Alive]

Actually, my friend--these things have nothing to do with me.

[Gentle-Warrior]

On 9/23/2019 at 6:26 PM, Heleadethme said:

I agree....nevertheless persecution by religious Jews has happened, does happen on a small but often serious scale, and i believe is going to happen again on a larger scale and we need to be prepared for it.

Unconverted Jews persecuted Jewish Christians by calling them traitors. Many believing Jews have lost their families and friends for daring to believe in Jesus. Some of them truly suffer for the sake of the Master. 

Edited September 25, 2019 by Gentle-Warrior

[Heleadethme]

2 hours ago, Gentle-Warrior said:

Unconverted Jews persecuted Jewish Christians by calling them traitors. Many believing Jews have lost their families and friends for daring to believe in Jesus. Some of them truly suffer for the sake of the Master. 

Yes....loss of families, friends and jobs too.  In Israel it's sometimes worse than that.....ongoing persistent harassment, pushing and shoving, gatherings of Orthodox Jews around their property shouting terrible things and throwing garbage onto their properties, loss of livelihoods, having to go to court on trumped up charges, etc, etc......and the police often turn a blind eye.

[Alive]

I had no idea. This is sad to hear.

i would like to hear additional first hand views on this.