The Holy Spirit, Obedience and Salvation

[tsth]

Hi Suzanne,

[tsth]

Suzanne, I'll take a shot at this, but wont hold it up to be correct. I believe it would be necessary to have received salvation before you could be accounted to be obedient. In the case of the hebrews, the apostle told them if they rejected Christ's offer of salvation and returned to judaism, they would only be accoutable to the law, in which there is no salvation and in their state would not have any Christ to be obedient to........or disobedient to.

oh deary me. Can you understand what I am trying to say. If not I'll try again. not very good at this.

in Him,

eric (with a little e)

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Gottcha!

But have you considered Abraham. He walked only because he believed what he heard. He was physically saved, because he walked.

Noah, he believe what he heard as well, he was physically saved because he built.

How about Lot?

Can you be saved if you don't believe what you hear? And if you believe what you hear, won't you act on what you heard?

Make sense? Job wasn't quite sure was he? But then he "heard" and believed.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[tsth]

Is obedience necessary for salvation?

For the Holy Spirit to indwell you?]And can the Holy Spirit indwell if you are not saved? They all seem to go hand in hand. We can look scripturally at this

We can't be happy Christians if we don't obey God and it is nessesary for Salvation how can we serve Him if we don't want to obey Him?

The Holy Spirit does not dwell in unbelievers but He does call them to obey the gospel.

If we are saved the Holy Spirit lives in us and guides us through this earthly life, what would we do without this hope in us?

Luke 6:46 - "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?" What right do you have to claim He is your Lord if you don't obey? None! Your master is the one you obey (. Rom. 6:16; Matt. 6:24). If you don't obey, He's not your master.

The Holy Spirit is the source of the overflowing life (John 7:37-39)

1 John 2:3-6 - To know Him and abide in Him, we must keep his commands, keep his word. If we are not doing so, but still claim to know Him, we are liars, and we don't abide in Him.

Angels

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Yes Maam!!!! I second this!

In His Love,

Suzanne

[Trust & Obey]

I would propse it in this way:

A saved person will obey to one extent or another. Some believers are very obedient and thus grow quickly and strong in the Lord. Others falter over and over again in their obedience and faith. They are equally as saved as the others, they are just stunted in their growth.

Salvation is by grace through faith... and that not of ourselves... not of works... it is a gift of God. You cannot earn a gift. It would be insulting to the Gift-giver to even try to "pay Him back" for the gift.

But, he/she who is saved is indwelt by the HS and the HS will bring conviction and the power and desire to obey. It is the level of yieldedness that a believer offers to the leading of the HS that determines their level of obedience. But, if it be even in the smallest amount, a true believer will always be convicted by their sin and in anguish over it.

Obedience is an outward sign that something is happening inwardly. We cannot judge a Christian easily based upon the outward sign of their obedience. Otherwise, how much obedience would be enough? Who would create that scale? That would quickly turn to legalism.

Ultimately, a Christian will have a genuine desire to obey God.

[tsth]

A saved person will obey to one extent or another. Some believers are very obedient and thus grow quickly and strong in the Lord. Others falter over and over again in their obedience and faith. They are equally as saved as the others, they are just stunted in their growth.

Is this according to the Word, or your own opinion?

2 Timothy 2

5 And also if anyone competes in athletics, he is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules.

Matt. 12:33 "Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for a tree is known by its fruit.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[Trust & Obey]

Obedience and Salvation are closely related, but one should be careful in attributing causality where the Bible implies none. The clearest statement of the logical relationships between works and faith occurs in Ephesians 2:1-10 (NASB)

And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

Ephesians 2:1-3 NASB

Paul begins chapter 2 by descibing the condition of people without Jesus. All humans are dead (separated from God) because of their sin. They are incapable of obeying God, because of this condition of spiritual death (Ephesians 2:1-3). Notice the unsaved are described as:

1. Dead in trespasses and sin

2. Walking according to the principles of the world as controlled by Satan

3. Led by the desires of the flesh

4. By nature children of wrath

5. All people (including believers) begin life this way.

6. Notice we walked according to the spirit that works in the sons of disobedience. It was part of our nature, or who wer were at the very core.

But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,  even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus,  in order that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 2:4-7 NASB

Paul has looked at man's side of the equation (we are hoplessly lost) and now looks at it from God's perspective:

1. God, motivated by His mercy and love, made us (believers) alive with Christ. We are no longer separated from God.

2. He did this while we were still spiritually dead and incapable of good works

3. Positionally we are now raised up from spiritual death and seated with Christ in the heavenlies (we are justified in God's sight)

4. His purpose in doing this was to be able to continue to demonstrate the richness of His unmerited favor toward us in ages to come. It was for His own glory

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast. For we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Ephesians 2:8-10 NASB

Paul now begins Ephesians 2:8 with the word "for". It is what is called in grammar a "subordinate coordination" In everyday language it basically makes what he is about to say as a more detailed explanation of what he has just described, namely our salvation.

Paul states the following:

1. Our salvation was made possible by God's grace (Ephesians 2:8). The word "by" explains the thing that made our salvation possible (namely God's grace). Again grace is best described as unmerited favor in the NT. In other places it is translated as "kindness" , "mercy", and "goodwill". It speaks of a special manifistation of God's presence, power, glory, or favor. Its basic meaning is unmerited favor

For example in Romans 4:4(NASB):

Now to the one who works, his wage is not reckoned as a favor, but as what is due.

The word "favor" in this verse is the same word used in Ephesians for grace (charis in greek). The sense of Romans 4:4 is that the one who works is not paid a wage because of the unmerited favor of the boss, but because the laborer has worked and has a wage due to him.

It is the same here. Our salvation is not due to any work that we have done. It is not due to us, but is given solely on the basis of God's unmerited favor.

2. Paul contiunues that the condition through which this favor comes is our faith(Ephesians 2:8). God has for His glory and as part of His eternal decree declared that faith is what He requires as the response on our part that brings salvation. God has always declared people pleasing in his sight based on their faith. Abraham was declared righteous because he "believed God" (Genesis 15:6)

3. Paul then explains himself further in the second portion of verse 8. Salvation has nothing to do with us. It is not "of us", but a gift of God. Salvation is not the result of works (Ephesians 2:9). Here Paul tells us that works are not the thing that causes salvation.  So, no one can boast, because no one can do anything to earn God's unmerited favor. The greek word for works (ergon) speaks of deeds or actions we accomplish.

5. Works are the result or purpose of our salvation. Paul declares in verse 10 that while we were not saved by works, we were saved for works. Our salvation (Being made alive and raised up) now enables those of us who were spirtually dead to now do good works, because the condition that made that impossible has now been removed. We are now made "alive" in Christ, and through the power of the Holy Spirit that dwells in us now have the power to do works that please God, because we now have a new heart and nature that is capable of obeying God

So in summary:

1. Paul views our salvation and obedience as closely linked.

2. Our salvation is made possible only by an act of God's unmerited favor and can only be appropriated through faith

3. Works (or obedience) are not a cause of salvation. Unregenerate man is incapable of doing good works. They are by nature children of wrath.

4. We were saved for the purpose of doing works. These are made possible because we are made spiritually alive in Christ. We receive a new heart at salvation that has the law written on it (see Jeremiah). Thus James could say that faith without works is dead (not functioning) because true faith will always result in a changed life. If our salvation does not produce the expected product, we should question our experience. But they are a product, not a cause.

I think this distinction is important because adding works as a cause for salvation, rather than a result adds to the work of Christ on the cross and is not the true gospel. It assumes man is capable of pleasing God with his actions before He receives a new nature. It becomes Christ plus our obedience.

However, from a practical perspective, a life that is unchanged by a profession of faith should give one pause to ask if a genuine faith exists, or if their heart is one of the bad soils in the parable of the seed and the sower.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Bravo! Well done!

Salvation produces obedience in the believer, not the other way around (obedience producing salvation). They do go hand in hand, but it cannot be overstated how important it is to have it in the right order. Either it is of God or it is of men.

If a person has no desire for obedience then we can righly question that persons state of salvation. Believing that salvation is solely based upon God's grace does not give way to easy-believism.

[Trust & Obey]

Suzanne, I'll take a shot at this, but wont hold it up to be correct. I believe it would be necessary to have received salvation before you could be accounted to be obedient. In the case of the hebrews, the apostle told them if they rejected Christ's offer of salvation and returned to judaism, they would only be accoutable to the law, in which there is no salvation and in their state would not have any Christ to be obedient to........or disobedient to.

oh deary me. Can you understand what I am trying to say. If not I'll try again. not very good at this.

in Him,

eric (with a little e)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Gottcha!

But have you considered Abraham. He walked only because he believed what he heard. He was physically saved, because he walked.

Noah, he believe what he heard as well, he was physically saved because he built.

How about Lot?

Can you be saved if you don't believe what you hear? And if you believe what you hear, won't you act on what you heard?

Make sense? Job wasn't quite sure was he? But then he "heard" and believed.

In His Love,

Suzanne

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Interesting that you bring up Lot. I gotta tell you, brother Lot brings me a "lot" of comfort sometimes. In those days where I struggle I can look back at how compromised Lot was. Lot pitched his tent towards Sodom. Lot "lingered in Sodom" even while he was warned about God's coming judgment. The angels of God had to physcially remove Lot out of Sodom because he was "dilly-dallying."

Yet, Peter calls him "just, righteous, and godly."

2Pe 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

2Pe 2:7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:

2Pe 2:8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)

2Pe 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

Why? How can this be? Because our justification, righteousness, and godliness are based completely on faith, not of works. Lot is the perfect example of God's grace. I bet if Lot were in a Church today people would call him a compromiser and a wordly person. Yet, God calls him just, righteous, and godly.

Praise God for His mercy that endures forever.

[Trust & Obey]

A saved person will obey to one extent or another. Some believers are very obedient and thus grow quickly and strong in the Lord. Others falter over and over again in their obedience and faith. They are equally as saved as the others, they are just stunted in their growth.

Is this according to the Word, or your own opinion?

See my post about Lot.

If you are going to say that obedience is necessary as a prerequisite of salvation, then:

a) how much obedience is enough?

b) how can a carnal man do anything good to please a holy God?

Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

A natural man hasn't any capacity to please God. The only thing a natural man can offer to God is humility, repentance, and faith.

Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

A natural man is decidedly "in the flesh." They cannot please God in that state. It takes regeneration for a man to be able to please God.

2 Timothy 2

5 And also if anyone competes in athletics, he is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules.

And, what are the rules? Simply to believe.

Joh 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Matt. 12:33 "Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for a tree is known by its fruit.

I think this passage enforces the idea that obedience can only come from a saved person.

Mat 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

Jesus' implication was that since these were evil to begin with they were incapable of delieving anything that was good.

It isn't until God saves a man that the man can then produce something good.

This is a tricky subject. God saves us based upon His mercy and grace. God begins drawing us by his Spirit and convicting us of our sin. It is when we come to the end of ourselves, repent of our sin, and place our faith in Him that He saves us.

Repentance and faith are the only "works" necessary for salvation, but if you do a study on this you will find that even repentance and faith are gifts from God (Ephesians 2:8-9; 2 Timothy 2:25).

I don't want to be overbearing in this thread so I'll bow out now.

God bless.

[Trust & Obey]

One more thing, Suzanne.

Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit (are saved), let us also walk in the Spirit (be obedient).

Here Paul draws a line between living in the Spirit (being saved), and walking in the Spirit (being obedient).

One can be saved while not being obedient. Otherwise, Paul's statement here is unnecessary and meaningless.

Obedience is our response to being saved. If a Christian lives his life in disobedience then the Christian is the one who loses. He loses now because he lives a miserable life, and he loses then by missing out on future heavenly rewards.

[tsth]

Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Titus 2:12 Teaching us that, deny ing ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

In His Truth,

Suzanne