Why Did Jesus Die For Us

[Kansasdad]

If there is any tension here it is not because of God, it is because we are not understanding perfectly or stating the doctrine perfectly. I think it is also because we are not really listening to one another.

There are dangers on both sides of the aisle. For those that are stressing the role of works in salvation, the danger is that they will communicate a gospel that is centered on the efforts of man. For those that are stressing faith, the danger is that they will communicate "easy believism" or as Bonhoeffer described "Cheap Grace". Those who hold that works play a role in salvation need to be able to explain the passage in Ephesians that says we are not saved by works. Those who hold we are saved by faith alone need to be able to explain in what sense Abraham was saved by works. Throwing up a verse that states the opposite does not prove any thing other than neither side has come to perfect understanding, or their explanations are not complete or clear. Any theology that claims to be Biblical must take into account all scriptures that speak to the subject. Otherwise one is practicing the idea of a canon within the canon.

I think caution is needed here. We need to make sure that the gospel is not changed in anyway just so we appear to win an argument or make our point. We also need to make sure we are not misrepresenting the position of others by setting up straw-men to knock down. I think too, we need to respond to the texts others present, and not just respond with "what about this other verse?" Other wise it degenerates into people lobbing shells at one another trying to get the last word. If we don't start responding to the verses other people present and their interaction with our verses, and really start trying to connect, this discussion will accomplish nothing. It will be a series of verse bombardments.

Lastly, it is not enough to say "you are misunderstanding that verse". Just saying it does not make it so. One must be able to demonstrate from the text itself and the context how the person has misused it. I find it very hard to have a discussion with someone when they present me with a scripture saying it means a certain thing. I take the time to show them why I think their conclusions are incorrect. They proceed to present another verse, rather than interacting with my reasoning. That is not a discussion. It is one person lobbing verses and then watching the other dance. The lobber is not putting skin in the game. It leads me to believe they really don't care what I have to say, they just want to unload.

Here are key question each person needs to answer in terms of this discussion:

1. What defines biblical faith?

2. Is man in anyway able to earn his salvation?

3. Is unsaved man able to perform works that please God in any way

4. What is the logical relationship between faith and works

5. Given your definitions above, how would you go about sharing the gospel with someone?

6. What is the proper method for determining the meaning of words in a biblical text?

7. How many "meanings" does a text have?

Lastly, we need to stop playing to the gallery. Labling people or appealing to examples of people that hold to the same position and abuse it are not fair arguments. This tactic actually demonstrates that the person who is using it does not feel his own argument is strong, so they resort to emotional tactics.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Very well stated Eric, this is why I have enjoyed your post!

and I would contend that on those 7 point there really is not much disagrement. except maybe #6. As we have dived through this discussion the real difficult concept to get a clear picture is:

8. Once a person has true faith can they lose it, putting their salvation in jeaporty.

Why did Jesus die for us?, so that we may gain the kingdom of heaven through faith in Jesus Christ.

God Bless:

Kansas Dad

[tsth]

Genesis 4:6-7

In His Love,

Suzanne

[EricH]

Genesis 4:6-7

In His Love,

Suzanne

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree, we should not respond in anger.

[Fisher of Men]

Wow,

This is the first time I've checked this thread since I started it. 4 pages already! I didn't think it would get much of a response.

There are a few fundamentals that need to be recognized before there can be agreement on this most basic of Christian doctrines and oracles of God. Heb. 5

A few points:

Works faith and salvation are all connected.

Everything about your salvation had everything to do with works.

Faith is a work.

Repentance is a work.

Prayer is a work.

Baptism is a work of obedience.

In fact all of the above are acts of obedience, which are works.

Hence, salvation comes on the condition of obedience to Christ, which is works.

Rom. 6:

17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Receiving the Holy Spirit also comes on condition of obedience:

Acts 5:

32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Our actions are works, obedience to Christ is a work, hence we are saved by works.

Could you have been saved if you had not believed (a work) repented (a work) and prayed (a work)?

The answer is an absolute NO.

Where on earth then did we ever get this strange idea that we don't have to do anything to get saved?

Look in the scriptures at the situations when God saved his people. Are there any cases where there was not something told them from God that they needed to do in order for them to be saved?

Noah had to build an ark.

Elijah had to go to the brook.

David had to leave town.

Lot had to leave town.

The time would fail us to tell of all the others who escaped death by doing what God told them.

Another point:

There is the initial experience of salvation (which as mentioned above requires works in order to get; faith, repentance, etc.)

The words "changed" or "quickened" are good synonyms for the word "saved".

Saved from what? Death. Because the wages of sin is death, being forgiven by God through the substitute death of Christ for us saved us from the wages of sins that we had committed. This should bring a change and a quickening to no longer walk that old life of the carnal mind and spiritual death.

There is also the ultimate experience of salvation. We are not there yet for we have not entered into the gates into the city. Rev. 22:14.

We were initially saved so that we can be ultimately saved.

The children of Israel were initially saved from Egypt so that they could possess their ultimate inheritance of the promised land.

Of the male adults initially saved, only Joshua and Caleb inherited that for which they were saved to inherit.

We were saved to do works. Our initial salvation depended on whether or not we would do works meet for repentance. After doing that and being forgiven and quickened or changed, God expects us to continue yielding to his will as we yielded in the doing the initial works. The reason why all the other adult males did not inherit their ultimate salvation is because they didn't do what they they were supposed to do. 1 Cor. 10

So we as Christians, even though we have been saved initially, if we don't do what we are supposed to do, we will not make it in just like most all of the adult males that were saved from Egypt did not make it in.

Paul and Jude both use this as a warning to believers. In short it comes down to a warning to us to do what we are supposed to do as believers or face rejection from the ultimate inheritance that we were initially saved to inherit.

So it is very clear that we are saved by works, but not works that we can take credit for, for since we have believed, it is God that works in us both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Even though Eph. 2:8-10 is made up of separate sentences, the train of thought is as if it were one long sentence. Hence anyone quoting only verses 8,9 are deceived and are propagating a false message for verse 9 is completed by verse 10. The state of being saved, ("quickened" or changed which includes doing things (works) Eph. 2:1-5,10) is not accredited to us but to the grace of God that does the works. 1 Cor. 15:10

Those misusing Paul's words in Eph. 2 or Rom. to claim there is a disconnect between works and salvation are simply unstable as Peter testified concerning Paul's writings being wrested. 2 Pet. 3

Since when is whether or not a particular individual is being obedient to what the scriptures say, a determining factor on whether or not the scriptures say it?

So Suzanne is questioned on whether or not she is obedient as if this will determine whether or not the plainly worded scriptures she quotes are truth?

The woman is the weaker vessel but Suzanne is putting some men to shame here for she has humbled herself to believe and in that weakness is Christs strength seen manifested in her.

EricH

Rom. 7 is not an admission that Paul as a believer is hopelessly bound to sin. He is using his own life experience to describe the state of condemnation and the working of the law of sin and death in humankind outside of walking in the Spirit.

He concludes that the condemnation; the working out of the law of sin and death which we all have experienced, is overridden by another law made manifest in the lives of believers through walking in the Spirit. That state of condemnation described by Paul in Rom. 7 is no longer experienced as long as they walk in the Spirit. Rom. 8:1-4

Those of you using scriptures where Paul is referring to law or works in a negative sense are ignorant that those scriptures are relating to:

Obsolete OT laws no longer necessary such as circumcision or,

Works (righteous moral deeds) performed by the unbeliever therefore they are profitless as far as salvation goes, or

Works not ordained by God such as traditions that oppose the truth as Christ taught it.

The words law and works are determined by their context whether they are speaking of worthless works or works necessary for salvation.

Is not believing, repenting, praying necessary for salvation?

Are not these things what a person does, ie works?

Is not salvation hereby proven to be determined by our works?

If we didn't do what Jesus says we should, is it not so that we would not have been initially saved?

After being saved is it not so that we are to continue in his Word and thereby not be hearers only but doers of the work of applying what we hear?

And is it not so that if we do not continue in his word by being doers and not just hearers we are deceiving ourselves concerning our salvation?

James 1:

22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:

24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.

25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

James 2:

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

(This is a salvation issue.)

The answer to the question:

James 2:

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

This is a salvation issue. Life or death.

How alive is a body without a spirit?

What are the chances for salvation for one with faith but with no works?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Can someone not right with God (not justified) be saved?

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

If works do not accompany our faith we are not right with God and therefore will not inherit the ultimate salvation for which we were initially saved to inherit.

He that endures to the end.

Remember how Jesus called his disciples fools? Or how Paul called the Galatians fools?

Any sharpness I may seem to use is not meant to belittle but to edify.

The sad truth is that much of modern Christianity is under a delusion and is even antichrist according to John's definition of antichrist.

Denying the very purpose for Christ's death, to bring about righteousness (works) is antichrist.

Isn't that what this thread is all about?

Edited June 23, 2005 by Fisher of Men

[Kansasdad]

Wow, 

This is the first time I've checked this thread since I started it. 4 pages already! I didn't think it would get much of a response.

There are a few fundamentals that need to be recognized before there can be agreement on this most basic of Christian doctrines and oracles of God. Heb. 5

A few points:

Works faith and salvation are all connected.

Everything about your salvation had everything to do with works.

Faith is a work.

Repentance is a work.

Prayer is a work.

Baptism is a work of obedience.

In fact all of the above are acts of obedience, which are works.

Hence, salvation comes on the condition of obedience to Christ, which is works.

Rom. 6:

17  But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

18  Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Receiving the Holy Spirit also comes on condition of obedience:

Acts 5:

32  And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Our actions are works, obedience to Christ is a work, hence we are saved by works.

Could you have been saved if you had not believed (a work) repented (a work) and prayed (a work)?

The answer is an absolute NO.

Where on earth then did we ever get this strange idea that we don't have to do anything to get saved?

Look in the scriptures at the situations when God saved his people. Are there any cases where there was not something told them from God that they needed to do in order for them to be saved?

Noah had to build an ark.

Elijah had to go to the brook.

David had to leave town.

Lot had to leave town.

The time would fail us to tell of all the others who escaped death by doing what God told them.

Another point:

There is the initial experience of salvation (which as mentioned above requires works in order to get; faith, repentance, etc.)

The words "changed" or "quickened" are good synonyms for the word "saved".

Saved from what? Death. Because the wages of sin is death, being forgiven by God through the substitute death of Christ for us saved us from the wages of sins that we had committed. This should bring a change and a quickening to no longer walk that old life of the carnal mind and spiritual death.

There is also the ultimate experience of salvation. We are not there yet for we have not entered into the gates into the city. Rev. 22:14.

We were initially saved so that we can be ultimately saved.

The children of Israel were initially saved from Egypt so that they could possess their  ultimate inheritance of the promised land. 

Of the male adults initially saved, only Joshua and Caleb inherited that for which they were saved to inherit.

We were saved to do works. Our initial salvation depended on whether or not we would do works meet for repentance. After doing that and being forgiven and quickened or changed, God expects us to continue yielding to his will as we yielded in the doing the initial works. The reason why all the other adult males did not inherit their ultimate salvation is because they didn't do what they they were supposed to do. 1 Cor. 10

So we as Christians, even though we have been saved initially, if we don't do what we are supposed to do, we will not make it in just like most all of the adult males that were saved from Egypt did not make it in.

Paul and Jude both use this as a warning to believers. In short it comes down to a warning to us to do what we are supposed to do as believers or face rejection from the ultimate inheritance that we were initially saved to inherit.

  So it is very clear that we are saved by works, but not works that we can take credit for, for since we have believed, it is God that works in us both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Even though Eph. 2:8-10 is made up of separate sentences, the train of thought is as if it were one long sentence. Hence anyone quoting only verses 8,9 are deceived and are propagating a false message for verse 9 is completed by verse 10. The state of being saved, ("quickened" or changed which includes doing things (works) Eph. 2:1-5,10) is not accredited to us but to the grace of God that does the works. 1 Cor. 15:10

Those misusing Paul's words in Eph. 2 or Rom. to claim there is a disconnect between works and salvation are simply unstable as Peter testified concerning Paul's writings being wrested. 2 Pet. 3

Since when is whether or not a particular individual is being obedient to what the scriptures say, a determining factor on whether or not the scriptures say it?

So Suzanne is questioned on whether or not she is obedient as if this will determine whether or not the plainly worded scriptures she quotes are truth?

The woman is the weaker vessel but Suzanne is putting some men to shame here for she has humbled herself to believe and in that weakness is Christs strength seen manifested in her.

EricH

Rom. 7 is not an admission that Paul as a believer is hopelessly bound to sin. He is using his own life experience to describe the state of condemnation and the working of the law of sin and death in humankind outside of walking in the Spirit.

He concludes that the condemnation; the working out of the law of sin and death which we all have experienced,  is overridden by another law made manifest in the lives of believers through walking in the Spirit. That state of condemnation described by Paul in Rom. 7 is no longer experienced as long as they walk in the Spirit. Rom. 8:1-4

Those of you using scriptures where Paul is referring to law or works in a negative sense are ignorant that those scriptures are relating to:

Obsolete OT laws no longer necessary such as circumcision or,

Works (righteous moral deeds) performed by the unbeliever therefore they are profitless as far as salvation goes, or

Works not ordained by God such as traditions that oppose the truth as Christ taught it.

The words law and works are determined by their context whether they are speaking of worthless works or works necessary for salvation.

Is not believing, repenting, praying necessary for salvation?

Are not these things what a person does, ie works?

Is not salvation hereby proven to be determined by our works?

If we didn't do what Jesus says we should, is it not so that we would not have been initially saved?

After being saved is it not so that we are to continue in his Word and thereby not be  hearers only but doers of the work of applying what we hear?

And is it not so that if we do not continue in his word by being doers and not just hearers we are deceiving ourselves concerning our salvation?

James 1:

22  But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

23  For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:

24  For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.

25  But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

James 2:

14  What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

(This is a salvation issue.)

The answer to the question:

James 2:

15  If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16  And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17  Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18  Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19  Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20  But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21  Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22  Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23  And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24  Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25  Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26  For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

This is a salvation issue. Life or death.

How alive is a body without a spirit?

What are the chances for salvation for one with faith but with no works?

26  For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Can someone not right with God (not justified) be saved?

24  Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

If works do not accompany our faith we are not right with God and therefore will not inherit the ultimate salvation for which we were initially saved to inherit.

He that endures to the end.

Remember how Jesus called his disciples fools? Or how Paul called the Galatians fools?

Any sharpness I may seem to use is not meant to belittle but to edify.

The sad truth is that much of modern Christianity is under a delusion and is even antichrist according to John's definition of antichrist.

Denying the very purpose for Christ's death, to bring about righteousness (works) is antichrist.

Isn't that what this thread is all about?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks Fisher of Men This post speaks volumes.

Kansas Dad

[Trust & Obey]

Wow, 

This is the first time I've checked this thread since I started it. 4 pages already! I didn't think it would get much of a response.

There are a few fundamentals that need to be recognized before there can be agreement on this most basic of Christian doctrines and oracles of God. Heb. 5

A few points:

Works faith and salvation are all connected.

Everything about your salvation had everything to do with works.

Faith is a work.

Repentance is a work.

Prayer is a work.

Baptism is a work of obedience.

In fact all of the above are acts of obedience, which are works.

Hence, salvation comes on the condition of obedience to Christ, which is works.

Rom. 6:

17  But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

18  Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Receiving the Holy Spirit also comes on condition of obedience:

Acts 5:

32  And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Our actions are works, obedience to Christ is a work, hence we are saved by works.

Could you have been saved if you had not believed (a work) repented (a work) and prayed (a work)?

The answer is an absolute NO.

Actually, faith is a gift from God, not a human work.

Faith is a gift:

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

What is "not of ourselves" and " the gift of God?" The faith.

Repentance is a gift:

2Ti 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,

2Ti 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

2Ti 2:26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

You see, it takes the gift of God for a man to be able to recover themselve out of the snare of the devil. Men are held captive against their will. Did you read that... Against their will. Man cannot "will himself out of the snare of the devil." It takes God "granting repentance" to a man.

So, is "faith and repentance" still a mere human work? Or, are they divine gifts from God?

[Trust & Obey]

Where on earth then did we ever get this strange idea that we don't have to do anything to get saved?

I have no idea where we got that. Who suggested anything of the kind?

[tsth]

Actually, faith is a gift from God, not a human work.

Faith is a gift:

Eph 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

What is "not of ourselves" and " the gift of God?" The faith.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually, it is the grace that is the gift of God. That is what we keep proclaiming that the effectual working of "grace" is the power of God displayed in the lives of men who believe.

Eph. 1:19

and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power

Eph 3:7

of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power.

2 Cor 2:19 And He said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness." Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

That is what what displayed in Noah. A saving faith, and the effectual working power of the grace that God gave. Grace is powerful enough to overcome any stronghold or bondage of sin, which is our weakness, that the power of Christ may rest upon us.

Hab 2:4 "Behold the proud, His soul is not upright in him; But the just shall live by his faith.

Just as Noah "lived" by his faith.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[Pax]

Salvation is an on going process, not a one moment in time situation and then salvation can't be lost. It is incorrect to say I'm "Saved." The correct way to say this would be, I have been saved (past tense), I am being saved (present tense), and hopefully I will be saved at death (future tense).

Salvation is a gift of God and we must accept that gift through faith. This is also dependant upon how we accept and make use of that free gift.

I will show that salvation is not reducible to a mere "believe,repent, ask Jesus to be your personal savior" formula. Scripture shows that repentance and conversion are essential, but so is the "obedience of faith," what Catholics call "good works," done in grace, by the gift and power of God, whose grace works in us. (Philippians 2:12-13)

Also read Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God-not because of works, lest any man should boast." This clearly points out that one must have faith to obtain salvation, but is this all we need. Many people stop with this verse and say "I believe in Jesus, so I saved."

Then read Romans 2:4-8 "Do you not know that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed. For he will render to every man according to his DEEDS: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and homor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury."

Also one can read

Mathew 7:21-23

Mathew 19:16-17

Mathew 24:13

Mathew 25:34-36

Luke 6:27-36, 6:46-49

Romans 2:6, 13

Romans 5:2

Romans 8:25

Romans 11:22-23

1 Corninthians 9:27

Galatians 5:1-6

Ephesians 2:8-10

Philippians 2:12-13

Hebrews 10:24-29

James 1:22-25, 2:14-26

2 Peter 2:20-21

1 John 3:7, 5:3

All of these verses are citations that works are important for salvation. One can't just read Ephesians 2:8-9 and stop, but must rather read the whole Bible. I would agree with all of you that faith is the foundation of salvation, but we must also be obedient in our faith and do good works. Faith without Works is dead!

[EricH]

Actually, faith is a gift from God, not a human work.

Faith is a gift:

Eph 2:8