What Noah Could Have Said But Didn't

[Kansasdad]

Sue you have given us another exceptional post. Your doctrine is absolutely sound, your reasoning is simple and understandable, and it actually makes sense. Thank you!

God Bless

Kansas Dad

[Trust & Obey]

Isn't repentance a work?

No, FOM, it is a GIFT.

2Ti 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,

2Ti 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

2Ti 2:26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

[Ovedya]

CFS,

I don't think we need to go down the OSAS debate road here in this thread. However, this:

On one side of the coin we have those who believe we are saved by faith and that not even repentance is a part of it, because even the act of repentance is works and we are not saved by works, so they teach that you can be saved by merely praying a prayer and you are forgiven for all sin from that point on and you are secured your home in heaven no matter how you live from that point on.

is a very innacurate description of Christians who believe in salvation by faith alone.

Repentance is very much a part of the normal Christian life, and I believe that very few believers actually teach that we shouldn't need to repent from our sins on a regular basis (Although I know there is a faction of believers who teach that we need not repent because Christ has already forgiven our future sins. That is absolutely false). While it is certainly true that we fall into sin quite frequently - even day by day and moment by moment, a life lived out of faith is one that is continually trusting in God to save, not upon any "formulaic" means of trying to remain pure (Which are works in and of themselves). A genuine believer trusts in the continual efficacy of Christ's blood, and the promise of salvation afforded by God's word and through faith. Thus, faith in and of itself is not a static thing - it is not the concept of having once received the faith and that is a sufficient "curative" for remaining sin. Rather, genuine faith is a process, a cycle if you will, of trusting in God, drawing our supply from Him, and gaining Him daily.

The main problem with mankind from the very beginning has been that he has sought out ways - processes, formulas, rites, rituals, etc., - of bringing God to the point of saving them, rather than taking God's way of salvation. Know what the biggest problem in Christianity today is? It is the believers placing their trust - sometimes their absolute trust - in a system of doctrines, creeds, rites, rituals, and teachings instead of the very Christ who loved them and gave Himself up for them. Believers trust in religion more than they trust God. Many preachers today, sadly, have fallen into the trap of preaching various formulaic methods of how to be free from various forms of sin and bondage: Sin and bondage to finances, to the flesh, to marital problems, etc. These are just various ways of distracting the saints from what they really need, which is Christ.

Now, there is nothing inherently wrong with addressing the problems in the church. Many saints have problems with finances, their marriages, etc. However, the saints do not need a formula or a method to be freed from these various problems. They just need Christ! See, that's all that Paul ever preached: Paul preached Christ crucified, Christ resurrected, Christ in us, we in Christ, Christ lived, Christ expressed, Christ glorified, Christ magnified, Christ, Christ, Christ, and more Christ!

So what is faith really? We all know the verse in Hebrews 11:1 which says that faith is the substantiation of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." Ask yourself, "What are the things hoped for according to the Bible?" Of course we all have our own concept of things hoped for, don't we? We hope for a better job, we hope for a happy marriage, we hope for better lives for our kids. But those things have nothing to do with faith. By faith we can believe that God will provide for us, certainly. However, the things hoped for in the Bible are all related to Christ:

"We have been regenerated unto a living hope (1 Pet. 1:3). Our Christ, who is in us, is the hope of glory (Col. 1:27; 1 Tim. 1:1), which will issue in the redemption, the transfiguration, of our body in glory (Rom. 8:23-25). This is the hope of salvation (1 Thes. 5:8), a blessed hope (Titus 2:13), a good hope (2 Thes. 2:16), the hope of eternal life (Titus 1:2; 3:7); it is also the hope of the glory of God (Rom. 5:2), the hope of the gospel (Col. 1:23), the hope laid up for us in the heavens (Col. 1:5). We should keep this hope always (1 John 3:3) and boast in it (Rom. 5:2). Our God is the God of hope (Rom. 15:13), and through the encouragement of the Scriptures we can have hope (Rom. 15:4) all the time in God (1 Pet. 1:21) and can rejoice in it (Rom. 12:12). This book charges us to hold fast the boast of hope firm to the end (3:6), to show diligence unto the full assurance of our hope until the end (6:11), and to lay hold of the hope set before us (6:18). It also tells us that the new covenant brings in a better hope, through which we draw near to God (7:19). Our life should be a life of hope, which accompanies and abides with faith (1 Pet. 1:21; 1 Cor. 13:13). We should follow Abraham, who beyond hope believed in hope (Rom. 4:18)." (footnote)

And "the things not seen" are essentially all the things hoped for, which are all related to Christ. In fact, it is right to say that the main thing which is not seen is just our very Christ Himself. Since this is the case, it is right to say that faith is a living that is all the time related to the living out of Christ. So faith is just Christ Himself lived out by the believers. It is the believers cooperating with the Christ in them in complete surrender to His will, that He can be lived out of them.

The believers cannot cooperate with God unless there is a continual cycle of believing into the Son, repenting - turning away from our natural life to walk by the Spirit, and allowing Christ to be lived out and expressed. This is why Paul preached the need to live under the cross daily, and to walk according to the Spirit (Gal. 2:20; 5:13-26).

[Guest genesisgod789]

There is an element of human responsibility. An example I used in another thread is this:

I could go into my office with a stack of fresh pizzas and put them on the conference room table. Then, I could make a announcement that, "whosoever will, let them come and freely eat."

But, only those that take the opportunity to get up and help themselves to the free pizza will have their bellies filled. So, too, is it with the gospel of Christ. Christ has said, "if any many thirsts, let him come unto Me and drink." But, only those who do so will have their thirst quenched. It doesn't mean that the person saved themself, rather it means that they were partakers of the free gift.

Now, one doesn't walk away from Christ and say within himself, "boy that was good water... What a treat I found for myself." Rather, they say, "boy that was some satisfying water... thanks be to Jesus for giving it to me."

That is true... we have to receive the gift of salvation. We have to reach out and take what God has provided. That is not really what is being taught by FOM and others, though. They are teaching that we have to work to maintain our salvation in order to worthy of eternal life, which is absolutely anathema to the Gospel and completely nullifies grace and Christ's work of redemption on the cross.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If Salvation is a gift, and " we have to reach out and receive it" what makes us reach out and take it ? If accepting Jesus is solely by the movement of Salvation already given. Why do we need repentance [ The call to repent and be sinless ] if by default we will be moved to be sinless. If accepting God is in no way a action started by the human heart, how is it called acceptance ?.

If Salvation is akin to grabbing a pizza that was bought for everyone, what is the action that yields one to go grab the pizza. Was the hunger given by the pizza buyer ?, or was it a need for food/salvation that was inherent in that person. If Salvation by works is anathema to the Gospel, how can we loose it by not doing works ? If indeed salvation was already inherent ?. [ Point: Judas, A & HIs wife] or were they not saved in the first place ? If you were to agree that both were saved " really saved" then how did they loose it ?. Wrong Gospel ? I don't know you decide.

[Trust & Obey]

There is an element of human responsibility. An example I used in another thread is this:

I could go into my office with a stack of fresh pizzas and put them on the conference room table. Then, I could make a announcement that, "whosoever will, let them come and freely eat."

But, only those that take the opportunity to get up and help themselves to the free pizza will have their bellies filled. So, too, is it with the gospel of Christ. Christ has said, "if any many thirsts, let him come unto Me and drink." But, only those who do so will have their thirst quenched. It doesn't mean that the person saved themself, rather it means that they were partakers of the free gift.

Now, one doesn't walk away from Christ and say within himself, "boy that was good water... What a treat I found for myself." Rather, they say, "boy that was some satisfying water... thanks be to Jesus for giving it to me."

That is true... we have to receive the gift of salvation. We have to reach out and take what God has provided. That is not really what is being taught by FOM and others, though. They are teaching that we have to work to maintain our salvation in order to worthy of eternal life, which is absolutely anathema to the Gospel and completely nullifies grace and Christ's work of redemption on the cross.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If Salvation is a gift, and " we have to reach out and receive it" what makes us reach out and take it ? If accepting Jesus is solely by the movement of Salvation already given. Why do we need repentance [ The call to repent and be sinless ] if by default we will be moved to be sinless. If accepting God is in no way a action started by the human heart, how is it called acceptance ?.

If Salvation is akin to grabbing a pizza that was bought for everyone, what is the action that yields one to go grab the pizza. Was the hunger given by the pizza buyer ?, or was it a need for food/salvation that was inherent in that person. If Salvation by works is anathema to the Gospel, how can we loose it by not doing works ? If indeed salvation was already inherent ?. [ Point: Judas, A & HIs wife] or were they not saved in the first place ? If you were to agree that both were saved " really saved" then how did they loose it ?. Wrong Gospel ? I don't know you decide.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, the hunger was given by the Pizza Buyer (God) in this case.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

And, repentance does not equate to sinlessness. It does demonstrate the desire to not live in sin any longer.

Judas was never saved. He was a devil from the beginning and Jesus knew it.

Joh 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

[Kabowd]

That article has some traces of truth, but is mostly dangerously wrong. I may have to address it in two seperate posts because of how the quotes work:

The following things that Noah

[Kabowd]

This is a classic example of creating a totally different message than what the author intended by taking words out of their context. It is also a major fulfillment of the prophecies of two apostles: Peter prophesied concerning false teachers who would deny Jesus and bring in heresies that would bring damnation on those who accept them. And Paul prophesied that in the latter times some would depart from the faith giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their conscience seared with a hot iron. See 2 Pet. 2:1-3 1 Tim. 4:1,2 Matt. 10:32,33 Mark 8:38 John 5:29. This exemplifies Satan's extremely skillful ability to subtly manipulate words and change meanings. This successful operation of severing works from salvation is as fatal as severing the spirit from the body. See James 2:14, 20-26.

What is scary is how easily you have twisted Scripture to suit your theology...and then you alienate all others by labeling them "false teachers" and "seducing spirits" if they teach otherwise. This is a very very dangerous practice, and again....eerily characteristic of a cult. It's one thing to encourage other believers to obey, to "spur one another on to love and good works" as Hebrews 10:24 tells us to do....but for you to write such an article, with such a heavy slant towards obedience, then define what you believe obedience looks like....then to further declare that any other teaching is the "doctrine of devils" is good reason for us to recognize it as extremely dangerous theology. As with most dangerous doctrines, there is just enough truth to confuse readers and sway them to this belief.

Was it not Noah

[Kabowd]

I was going to save this for the study group forum.  But since there are those who seem to think that Noah's ark is a picture of salvation by works, and because some erroneously believe that we cannot see Christ and salvation prefigured clearly in this story, I will post this here.

The story of Noah's ark is a beautiful depiction of Christ as well as a picture of the plan of salvation. 

By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

(Hebrews 11:7)

I.  Noah Was A Man of Faith. 

What was the basis of Noah's faith?  The Word of God. By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet,  Everything Noah did for 120 years was based upon what God told him.  Noah believed that there was a flood coming though it had never rained.  Noah believed because God said...

The building of the ark was evidence of Noah's faith.  It was a demonstration that is reverence for God was not merely lip service.  Noah, like James the apostle demonstrated his faith by His works.  Noah built the ark when God said, to the dimensions God said, and he built it out of the materials God said to build it out of.

Noah, the writer of Hebrews says, "moved with fear."  Noah's faith produced a reverential fear of Lord.  It was out of reverential fear that Noah moved in faith and built the ark just as God specified.

II. Noah found Grace in the Eyes of the Lord. (Gen. 6:8)

Noah was not saved because he built the ark.  The basis of Noah's salvation was the grace of God.  God approached Noah to build the ark.  It was not Noah's idea.  The ark was not devised by Noah but by God.  Had it not been for the grace of God, Noah would have been destroyed in the deluge along with everyone else. 

III.  The ark was God's provision. 

God, as stated earlier knew how the ark was to be built, he planned the ark and what it would be built out of.  God has always been the provider.  Salvation is God's idea, and God's provision for us.

IV.  The ark was Noah's refuge. 

God made sure that the ark would be sufficient for Noah and the other passengers.  The ark was built  with enough room for the animals, Noah's family and enough storage space for the food needed to support life on the ark.  Likewise Christ is our all sufficient Savior, our El Shaddai. (Phil 4:19; Col. 1:18; 2:9-10).

As our all sufficient one, Jesus has saved us from every sin.  There is no sin that is bigger than the the blood of Jesus.  Salvation covers every need of man.  The Schofield Study Bible points out that  that the Greek word for salvation includes the following: Healing, restoration, preservation, security, and deliverance.  Jesus is the answer for every need of the human heart.  There is more grace in Jesus than there are sins to commit.

V.  Noah entered the ark because God said "come into the ark." 

Noah entered his refuge by Divine invitation.  It is God, by His Holy Spirit, that draws us unto Him.  It is God who is reaching out to all mankind and calling upon us to repent and enter Christ, our refuge.  It is God who calling on us to enter into salvation in lieu of the wrath to come, that we might be saved from it.  The Bible says that it is not God's Will that any person should perish, but that all men might come to repentance.  The invitation is to whosoever.  It does not matter what you have done. It does not matter how many sins you committed.  As the old hymn says, "The vilest offender who truly believes, that moment from Jesus a pardon receives."

VI. The Ark is a Picture of Atonement.

Noah was told to  pitch (kaphar) the inside and outside of the ark with pitch (kopher).  I like what one pastor says: 

"The word which is here translated "pitch" simply means "to cover", or "to take away". At least 70 times in the Old Testament it is translated "to make atonement." The pitch was a covering which sheltered Noah, and all who were in the ark from the terrible storm of God

[Christ's Free Servant]

CFS,

I don't think we need to go down the OSAS debate road here in this thread.  However, this:

On one side of the coin we have those who believe we are saved by faith and that not even repentance is a part of it, because even the act of repentance is works and we are not saved by works, so they teach that you can be saved by merely praying a prayer and you are forgiven for all sin from that point on and you are secured your home in heaven no matter how you live from that point on.

is a very innacurate description of Christians who believe in salvation by faith alone.

Repentance is very much a part of the normal Christian life...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hey Ovedya,

I was not giving a description of those who believe in salvation by faith alone. My statement was "on one side of the coin..." meaning that all the way on one end of the argument is this and then all the way on the other side is that, and it appears to me that you fall somewhere in the middle of all that, probably closer to the first one I mentioned, but not all the way there. I was pointing out the extremes, ok??

There actually is a big Christian movement right now that believes that repentance is not necessary for salvation. They believe it is necessary for sanctification, but not salvation. They teach that all you have to do is pray a prayer to receive Christ and then you have the promise of eternal life. And, then they tell them that their sins are all forgiven (past, present & future) - which I believe, btw. But, then they go on to tell them that even if they go out and sin it is covered and it will not impact their salvation. That, too, has an element of truth to it.

Here is where the danger comes in. They are basically giving people the idea that all they have to do is pray a prayer and they have their ticket into heaven, but there is no repentance; no turning from sin; no change; no rebirth. All they did was pray a prayer. And, they call that faith. And, then they give them the idea that their sins from this point on don't matter. This is dangerous theology. I know it has an element of truth, but it is twisted truth. It is just the way Satan works. He takes the truth and twists it just enough to where it still sounds like the truth, but to where he gets the benefit - people are still in bondage to their sins.

So, the bottom line here is really "what is faith?" Is faith a prayer? Is it an agreement that I'm a sinner? Is it a belief that when I die I will go to heaven? Is it an acknowledgement that Jesus died for my sins? What is it? People keep talking about salvation by faith alone, and I agree with that, in principle, but I think the problem is in our understanding of what it means to have faith. I believe Satan has lied to the church in making it think that all one has to do is pray a prayer at some altar and "poof" you now have your ticket into heaven no matter how you live from this point on. We are not telling them that coming to Christ means death - yes, it means death to self, death to sin. It means to change from a catepillar into a butterfly.

I was going to quote you something from a book I read yesterday that is by Joni Eareckson Tada, but my husband took it to with him to work. She describes her initial change of heart decision to receive Christ in a way that I think should describe any true believer's decision to accept Christ as Savior. I'll have to get it for you later - it was beautiful! It was filled with repentance.

[Ovedya]

OKay. Sorry for the misunderstanding, CFS. It seemed to me like you were painting with a broader brush. Thanks for clearing it up for me.