What Noah Could Have Said But Didn't

[WayneB]

So, Saved by Grace, am I correct to assume that you misunderstood me when I wrote: Adam was made a sinner? Wouldn't you agree that if you had not been so quick to judge, you would not have made that mistake?

No, actually I don't think I misunderstood when you wrote, "Adam was made a sinner" anymore than I misunderstood your statement regarding Noah, "His obedience is what saved him."

Regardless, regarding your comment "Adam was made a sinner"... since God made Adam, your wording implied that Adam was made to sin and therefore made a sinner. Rather, Adam made a free choice to disobey God and brother Paul emphasized that as a result, "sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned."

Verse 19 which you made bold sums it up:

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

The verse points out specifically that it was Adam's disobedience that led to his downfall and made us all sinners in need of redemption. He was NOT made a sinner. The passage also points out that ONLY by the obedience of Jesus Christ will we be made righteous. Noah's obedience didn't save him but rather the obedience of Christ is what saved him.

Friend, I can't help but wonder. Do you purposely word your posts to spark controversy? Either we are reading you correctly OR you are using a poor choice of words to express yourself.

May the Lord Bless you richly,

Wayne

[Fisher of Men]

Saved by Grace

This is what I initially wrote.

Adam was literally made a sinner. In Christ we are to literally be made righteous.

You admitted not getting past the first sentence. You then write in a condescending manner as if you feel sorry for me for being so ignorant as to believe that Adam was created as a sinner on day 6.

I am writing on this thread to those who are familiar with the Word. I believe I charitably assumed anyone knowledgable who would read the above quote would make a connection to Rom. 5.

I believe that it appears not only by me, that you are the one using words to spark controversy. Also your unwillingness to understand that Adams initial sin was the beginning of the sin nature within himself (he didn't have that before the fall) and this in turn was passed on to all of mankind. So in that sense, yes, Adam was made a sinner as a result of that first sin. I really supposed the knowledgable would immediately pick up the connection to Rom. 5.

This is what you wrote:

The verse points out specifically that it was Adam's disobedience that led to his downfall and made us all sinners in need of redemption. He was NOT made a sinner.

Your wording here can easily appear that Adams sin made us sinners but it did not also make him a sinner. Can you please clarify? I doubt if you'll get many to agree with you there. Or is your last sentence above jumping back to the sixth day and you really do agree that his sin really did turn him into a sinner? You owe this to all of us.

The positional righteous theory is a subtle means of relieving believers of consciously making effort (the grace of God working in them and yielding to the Spirit) of daily denying themselves and taking up their cross in order to be acceptable into eternal life at judgment since Jesus said that if we are not his disciple we are not worthy of him and self denial and crossbearing are essential for being his disciple.

The positional thing also doesn't hold up under the fact that in John 8 we again find the word "make" relating to the same thing. He said the truth will make us free.

This is not positionally free but literally free because Jesus clarifies when he said he that commits sin is the servant of sin. He came to make us free from being a servant of sin which by Jesus' clear definition means anyone who commits sin. Did Jesus mean he that commits sin positionally? No, but He would have meant that if the being free from sin means being positionally free.

So are we correct to assume that when Jesus said "He that commits sin is the servant of sin" that you believe that he was speaking about those who commit sin positionally?

And if so, can you then please explain to us how this is done?

Also, if being free and being righteous are only positional in those verses, please, someone make a list and inform the Christian world what literal sins are acceptable to God. But it would seem it could be concluded that they all are, if the being free from them is only positional.

Sounds like the grace of God being turned into lasciviousness. (Jude)

[Fisher of Men]

No, actually I don't think I misunderstood when you wrote, "Adam was made a sinner" anymore than I misunderstood your statement regarding Noah, "His obedience is what saved him."

So if he had not built the ark, he would have been saved anyway?

Would God then have given him and his family gills?

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

Fisher,

Who commissioned Noah to build the Ark?

Peace,

Dave

[Guest shiloh357]

The positional righteous theory is a subtle means of relieving believers of consciously making effort (the grace of God working in them and yielding to the Spirit) of daily denying themselves and taking up their cross in order to be acceptable into eternal life at judgment since Jesus said that if we are not his disciple we are not worthy of him and self denial and crossbearing are essential for being his disciple.

No, you are incorrect. Diakanos which is used for Justify or Justification is a word that indicates a legal position. It refers to a declaration of righteousness and not being "made" righteous in the sense of righteousness being inherent to the believer.

Justification is positional in that we are taken out of Adam and placed into Christ. We were under the law as sinners but are under grace as Christians. We have been raised with Christ and seated (positionally) with him in the heavenlies.

To argue that positional justification makes one reject the necessity of self denial and service to God is absurd. It is a broad, over generalization. It presupposes that you know the hearts of other Christians are in a place to judge their motives.

I am sorry Fisher Of Men, but your theology is warped. You are trying to work your way to Heaven, and I can assure you, that if you are depending on good works to make it into Heaven and set you aright before God, you are in for a very rude and terrifying shock when you stand before the throne.

[Kabowd]

No, actually I don't think I misunderstood when you wrote, "Adam was made a sinner" anymore than I misunderstood your statement regarding Noah, "His obedience is what saved him."

So if he had not built the ark, he would have been saved anyway?

Would God then have given him and his family gills?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Again, you are essentially teaching that Noah saved himself. The Ark was just the means that God used to preserve Noah's life. God had already chosen Noah and found favor in him....long before Noah was even commissioned to build the ark.

[RGR]

No, actually I don't think I misunderstood when you wrote, "Adam was made a sinner" anymore than I misunderstood your statement regarding Noah, "His obedience is what saved him."

So if he had not built the ark, he would have been saved anyway?

Would God then have given him and his family gills?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What an asinine statement! It wasn't the ark who saved him, it was God. While the ark was the physical means used to achieve the purpose, it was God who did the saving, thank you very much. That's as ridiculous of a question as daring to ask what would have happened if Jesus would've sinned; it didn't happen, so no need to worry about it!

[WayneB]

Saved by Grace

This is what I initially wrote.

Adam was literally made a sinner. In Christ we are to literally be made righteous.

You admitted not getting past the first sentence. You then write in a condescending manner as if you feel sorry for me for being so ignorant as to believe that Adam was created as a sinner on day 6.

I am writing on this thread to those who are familiar with the Word. I believe I charitably assumed anyone knowledgable who would read the above quote would make a connection to Rom. 5.

I believe that it appears not only by me, that you are the one using words to spark controversy. Also your unwillingness to understand that Adams initial sin was the beginning of the sin nature within himself (he didn't have that before the fall) and this in turn was passed on to all of mankind. So in that sense, yes, Adam was made a sinner as a result of that first sin. I really supposed the knowledgable would immediately pick up the connection to Rom. 5.

This is what you wrote:

The verse points out specifically that it was Adam's disobedience that led to his downfall and made us all sinners in need of redemption. He was NOT made a sinner.

Your wording here can easily appear that Adams sin made us sinners but it did not also make him a sinner. Can you please clarify? I doubt if you'll get many to agree with you there. Or is your last sentence above jumping back to the sixth day and you really do agree that his sin really did turn him into a sinner? You owe this to all of us.

The positional righteous theory is a subtle means of relieving believers of consciously making effort (the grace of God working in them and yielding to the Spirit) of daily denying themselves and taking up their cross in order to be acceptable into eternal life at judgment since Jesus said that if we are not his disciple we are not worthy of him and self denial and crossbearing are essential for being his disciple.

The positional thing also doesn't hold up under the fact that in John 8 we again find the word "make" relating to the same thing. He said the truth will make us free.

This is not positionally free but literally free because Jesus clarifies when he said he that commits sin is the servant of sin. He came to make us free from being a servant of sin which by Jesus' clear definition means anyone who commits sin. Did Jesus mean he that commits sin positionally? No, but He would have meant that if the being free from sin means being positionally free.

So are we correct to assume that when Jesus said "He that commits sin is the servant of sin" that you believe that he was speaking about those who commit sin positionally?

And if so, can you then please explain to us how this is done?

Also, if being free and being righteous are only positional in those verses, please, someone make a list and inform the Christian world what literal sins are acceptable to God. But it would seem it could be concluded that they all are, if the being free from them is only positional.

Sounds like the grace of God being turned into lasciviousness. (Jude)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wow Fisher! You seem to be a very angry person. Why is that?

Regardless, my posts were fairly clear I think and don't require further clarification. As for where you took what I wrote, it is beyond me. My points were very simply stated: Adam was NOT "made" a sinner nor did Noah "save" himself.

Since you took the time to explain that you do not believe Adam was "made" a sinner by God but rather it was his own sin of disobedience that resulted in him becoming a sinner, I think we can move on. You just weren't clear...at least to me but I believe you do that on purpose just to spark heated debate.

Now about Noah, the original topic of discussion. So by building the ark, you believe he saved himself? What role did God play in Noah's salvation? Would God's plan have been thwarted if Noah refused to comply?

Two more questions...and don't answer IF you think they are too personal. Seriously, I am asking more so to prayerfully prompt self reflection. Do you sin? If you do, what do you do with your sin?

...and absolutely, Jesus made it clear that the truth will set us free! Praise God! Who is the Truth Fisher? John 14:6 It sure ain't me, you or Noah.

May the Lord bless you richly,

Wayne

My Brethren: Fisher stated, "I believe that it appears not only by me, that you are the one using words to spark controversy." Please know that my desire is NOT controversy but rather to be firm in the TRUTH. PLEASE...if you think I have been too harsh or have misspoken, I am open to sound correction from my brethren as the Holy Spirit leads you. Just PM me.

Shiloh & Tess...

[Guest shiloh357]

Saved by Grace

This is what I initially wrote.

Adam was literally made a sinner. In Christ we are to literally be made righteous.

You admitted not getting past the first sentence. You then write in a condescending manner as if you feel sorry for me for being so ignorant as to believe that Adam was created as a sinner on day 6.

I am writing on this thread to those who are familiar with the Word. I believe I charitably assumed anyone knowledgable who would read the above quote would make a connection to Rom. 5.

I believe that it appears not only by me, that you are the one using words to spark controversy. Also your unwillingness to understand that Adams initial sin was the beginning of the sin nature within himself (he didn't have that before the fall) and this in turn was passed on to all of mankind. So in that sense, yes, Adam was made a sinner as a result of that first sin. I really supposed the knowledgable would immediately pick up the connection to Rom. 5.

This is what you wrote:

The verse points out specifically that it was Adam's disobedience that led to his downfall and made us all sinners in need of redemption. He was NOT made a sinner.

Your wording here can easily appear that Adams sin made us sinners but it did not also make him a sinner. Can you please clarify? I doubt if you'll get many to agree with you there. Or is your last sentence above jumping back to the sixth day and you really do agree that his sin really did turn him into a sinner? You owe this to all of us.

The positional righteous theory is a subtle means of relieving believers of consciously making effort (the grace of God working in them and yielding to the Spirit) of daily denying themselves and taking up their cross in order to be acceptable into eternal life at judgment since Jesus said that if we are not his disciple we are not worthy of him and self denial and crossbearing are essential for being his disciple.

The positional thing also doesn't hold up under the fact that in John 8 we again find the word "make" relating to the same thing. He said the truth will make us free.

This is not positionally free but literally free because Jesus clarifies when he said he that commits sin is the servant of sin. He came to make us free from being a servant of sin which by Jesus' clear definition means anyone who commits sin. Did Jesus mean he that commits sin positionally? No, but He would have meant that if the being free from sin means being positionally free.

So are we correct to assume that when Jesus said "He that commits sin is the servant of sin" that you believe that he was speaking about those who commit sin positionally?

And if so, can you then please explain to us how this is done?

Also, if being free and being righteous are only positional in those verses, please, someone make a list and inform the Christian world what literal sins are acceptable to God. But it would seem it could be concluded that they all are, if the being free from them is only positional.

Sounds like the grace of God being turned into lasciviousness. (Jude)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wow Fisher! You seem to be a very angry person. Why is that?

Regardless, my posts were fairly clear I think and don't require further clarification. As for where you took what I wrote, it is beyond me. My points were very simply stated: Adam was NOT "made" a sinner nor did Noah "save" himself.

Since you took the time to explain that you do not believe Adam was "made" a sinner by God but rather it was his own sin of disobedience that resulted in him becoming a sinner, I think we can move on. You just weren't clear...at least to me but I believe you do that on purpose just to spark heated debate.

Now about Noah, the original topic of discussion. So by building the ark, you believe he saved himself? What role did God play in Noah's salvation? Would God's plan have been thwarted if Noah refused to comply?

Two more questions...and don't answer IF you think they are too personal. Seriously, I am asking more so to prayerfully prompt self reflection. Do you sin? If you do, what do you do with your sin?

...and absolutely, Jesus made it clear that the truth will set us free! Praise God! Who is the Truth Fisher? John 14:6 It sure ain't me, you or Noah.

May the Lord bless you richly,

Wayne

My Brethren: Fisher stated, "I believe that it appears not only by me, that you are the one using words to spark controversy." Please know that my desire is NOT controversy but rather to be firm in the TRUTH. PLEASE...if you think I have been too harsh or have misspoken, I am open to sound correction from my brethren as the Holy Spirit leads you. Just PM me.

Shiloh & Tess...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ya did just fine, Wayne!! F.O.M. simply does not have a firm grasp of the relationship of Justification to works.

Often, it is human vanity and pride that causes people to think that they have something to do with salvation.

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

Fisher,

Is this statement true?

Isa