What Noah Could Have Said But Didn't

[Kabowd]

Though faith was the root from which Noah's works came, can we separate the two to say the one saved him without the other?

If I declare to you that a million dollars is waiting for you at a certain location and all you have to do is go and get it:

Two things are necessary to get it. Faith in what I have declared and the work of acting on that faith to go and get it.

Can you say that faith is what got you the money and it wasn't the work of going to get it? Would you not be seen to be perhaps even insane for making such a conclusion?

Any sane person would agree that though faith was the initial and important ingredient that made the getting of the money possible, the money would not have been gotten if it were not for the going and getting it. Both were responsible for the getting of it.

Both the faith and the work were responsible for getting Noah saved.

Didn't someone confidently write earlier that it was Noahs faith that saved him and not his works?

So the ark, his work didn't save him? This is insane.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, I most certainly did. Do you care to actually respond to what I brought forth? Saying my post was "insane" does not constitute a response. I showed very scriptural reasons why your article was anti-grace and unbiblical. Please don't start another new topic re-stating the same theology until you can address the points several people have brought up which prove your doctrine is misguided.

By the way, your analogy and insistence that Noah's work saved him contradict Scripture (as I thoroughly showed you in my initial two posts).

Amen to what Ovedya said again.

[Kabowd]

Wow Tess, you're 16?

If had half the sense at that age or was as scripturally discerning as a new Christian...

Yes, ma'am. Thank you...

[nebula]

OK -

After reading through this, I have a couple things to say.

1) From the Lexicon offered through Crosswalk.com, pitch (kaphar) <--LINK means:

1. to cover, purge, make an atonement, make reconciliation, cover over with pitch

This is exactly what Tess wrote, so if there was an error in her use of this word it came from this Lexicon.

EricH, do you have a Lexicon or Hebrew dictionary that says otherwise?

2) If Noah hadn't built the ark, could he have claimed to have faith?

3) The Scripture says to "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Phil. 2:12). This means salvation is not passive, but active.

4) 1 Corinthians 3:11-15

11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

Works don't determine salvation into Heaven - but they do determine your reward once you get there.

[Guest Zayit]

4) 1 Corinthians 3:11-15

11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

Works don't determine salvation into Heaven - but they do determine your reward once you get there.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

YES!!!! the two go together!

But I see in Noach's case the opposite. We believe in the salvation work that Yeshua did on the cross and we are 'saved'. But saved to what and where? How is that determined?

But Noach wasn't saved until he did a work himself.

So His faith made him believe that what the L-RD said , although ridicules sounding as there never was a rain drop on earth, and he acted on it, by building the ark which saved him and his family and the animals to repopulate the earth.

Noach had to build the ark to enter into his salvation, his saving fro the flood, but Yeshua already did the 'building' the work for us and all we need is to believe that and we can enter in.

And BTW, I loved Tess's anoalogy, Kudos Tess! But I don't underrstand why it took two pages of unending quoting to argue about this. Isn't there some kind of limit to how many quotes you can have in one post?

[Trust & Obey]

If you read nothing else I've said...please read the following:

Was it the ark that saved Noah? Was it his obedience to God's instructions that saved him? Let's see....

In Genesis 6 God tells Noah to build the ark and gives him very specific instructions. He tells him to use gopherwood and to make it about 450 feet long, 75 feet wide and 45 feet high. Everything God tells Noah is very detailed and specific, but there is something tucked away inside those instructions that most people overlook. In verse 14, God tells him to coat it with "pitch" inside and out. This is highly important to the story. Pitch was something really thick, similar to tar or maybe sap. Why would God tell Noah to cover the entire ark with this? One, because it was sort of a "waterproof" agent and it would protect and preserve the wood. Two, because although Noah I'm sure worked hard and did his absolute best with the materials he had in order to make the ark exactly as God had instructed, being human..there is no doubt there was bound to be some gaps, some holes..some imperfections. The purpose of the pitch was to seal up all the cracks. Here's what is so cool, the word for "pitch" means: to cover, make atonement, make reconciliation, to ransom, purge, cleanse. Does that sound familiar?

"For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom (covering, atonement) for many." Mark 10:45

Jesus, in effect, was our "pitch". Yes, we are called to live a holy life...just as Noah was instructed to build this vessel that would save his family. But at the same time....God knows we are human and that we will fail at perfection. He doesn't leave us to drown in our failures and sins, He provides the covering we need and He "seals us" with His Spirit.

"Blessed is he whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered." Ps. 32:1

"You forgave the iniquity of your people and covered all their sins." Ps. 85:2

"Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set His seal of ownership on us, and put His Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come." 2 Corinthians 1:21

This is the beauty of grace and forgiveness, that He covers us. He wants us to obey, to seek holiness and to repent of sin. But He knows that we will always fall short of perfection. Hence, the whole purpose of Him coming to cover us.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Re-posting this because the last few repsonses seem to suggest it might've been overlooked. Amen to Ovedya's post.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There is one problem with your "pitch" analogy.

The word for pitch is Kopher

The word for atonement is kaphar as a verb and kippur as a noun (like yom kippur).

They are really two different words. Even through I agree with your conclusions, that part of your argument is not strong and is in fact fallacious

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Uh...I never said it was the same word. I showed how Scripturally the concept was very similar. Calling it "fallacious" is a bit strong don't you think? Especially considering I never claimed it was the same word.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Kaphar, Kopher are connected to Kippur or atone/cover. The pitch is a picture of the blood of Christ which atones or covers our sin. The picture is obvious, I think.

There is no fallacy in Tess's words. It would only be "fallacious" if her explanation of the picture was wrong. Kudos to all you have said, Tess. Especially your first response on this thread. Well done!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually it is fallacious. It is called the "root fallacy". It assumes that because words have a similar point of origin or root, that the meanings of both are inherant any time either is used.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

First, I wouldn't debate it with Shiloh, if I remember right he's fluent in Hebrew.

Secondly, where did she claim what you're accusing her of? Be careful how you make accusations.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

She maintains that kippur and kopher are all connected to the word atone, so since they are connected nuances can be borrowed between the two. I took 5 years of Hebrew for the record. My question is how can we be sure Mose intended the concept of atonement to be included when he described God's command to put pitch on the ark. The danger is that we are reading a meaning into the story that was not intended by the author

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How can we be sure the author didn't mean that?

If anything, she is making a play on words and drawing an analogy. Just as the sap covered up the holes left by Noah, so God's grace covers our imperfections. It's an analogy...I think that is where you are getting confused.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

SJ, didn't you rip me a new one for the "ye cannot be saved unless you abide in the ship" passage... saying it was WAY out of context and all?

At least be consistent.

[EricH]

OK -

After reading through this, I have a couple things to say.

1) From the Lexicon offered through Crosswalk.com, pitch (kaphar) <--LINK means:

1. to cover, purge, make an atonement, make reconciliation, cover over with pitch

This is exactly what Tess wrote, so if there was an error in her use of this word it came from this Lexicon.  :wub: 

EricH, do you have a Lexicon or Hebrew dictionary that says otherwise?

2) If Noah hadn't built the ark, could he have claimed to have faith?

3) The Scripture says to "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Phil. 2:12).  This means salvation is not passive, but active.

4) 1 Corinthians 3:11-15

11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

Works don't determine salvation into Heaven - but they do determine your reward once you get there.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I hesitate to answer this in risk of angering the posse, but yes I do have agrammar that lists them as separate words. It is:

The Brown-Driver-Briggs-Gesenius Hebrew English Lexicon. Also Bible Works lists them separately.

[apothanein kerdos]

SJ, didn't you rip me a new one for the "ye cannot be saved unless you abide in the ship" passage... saying it was WAY out of context and all?

At least be consistent.

You were trying to draw a theological precept from that verse saying that it did mean we are to abide in Christ. Tess, however, was merely making an analogy.

Please, don't say anything to me unless it is worthwhile.

[EricH]

"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

John 13:34-35 NASB

But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you in order that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the ood, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the ax-gatherers do the same?

Matthew 5:44-46 NASB

If someone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen.

1 John 4:20 NASB

[Trust & Obey]

SJ, didn't you rip me a new one for the "ye cannot be saved unless you abide in the ship" passage... saying it was WAY out of context and all?

At least be consistent.

You were trying to draw a theological precept from that verse saying that it did mean we are to abide in Christ. Tess, however, was merely making an analogy.

Please, don't say anything to me unless it is worthwhile.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Play nice, SJ.

Col 4:6 Let your speech be alway with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man.

[apothanein kerdos]

SJ, didn't you rip me a new one for the "ye cannot be saved unless you abide in the ship" passage... saying it was WAY out of context and all?

At least be consistent.

You were trying to draw a theological precept from that verse saying that it did mean we are to abide in Christ. Tess, however, was merely making an analogy.

Please, don't say anything to me unless it is worthwhile.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Play nice, SJ.

Col 4:6 Let your speech be alway with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is typical and consistent of you. You get proven wrong so you attack the person.

As i said, unless it's worthwhile and actually adds to the discussion, don't say anything.