Can we determine the TIMING of the Rapture from Paul?

[OneLight]

6 hours ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

Oh no, they are two distinct persons. Did you ask that because you see that Michael is very similar to JESUS?

No, because your doctrine sounds similar to the Jehovah Witness doctrine.

[OneLight]

11 hours ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

But y0u understood that they are two distinct persons, no? What does the Word of God reveals about Michael? Michael is more powerful than the angels of the Churches and has power over them to justify each one of them or to condemn each one of them by the Word of God (John 16:v.7-14), he is very similar of JESUS and takes of what is of Him to Judge the world and to make war-Rev.12:v.7-,this is the why among other reasons he has a title of archangel. 

In fact Jesus and Michael are very similar, it because Michael does not speak of himself; but whatsoever he heard from God he speaks, actually he received of JESUS and takes of Him, he does not speak of himself, in other words, he has no message of his own, but the one he received from the Lord to speak to the churches. Revelation 1:v.12-13 check it. This mystery is very deeper. 

Explaining: Michael is the third in the heavenly hierarchy and he only speaks what he has received from JESUS, he does not speak of his own, he has not a message of his own, actually he incorporates the Old and New Testaments, the TWO WITNESSES of the Most High and Almighty God, to make War against the body of the Red Dragon with its 7 heads, 10 horns and a TAIL (Rev.12:v.7), and to Judge the World(nations) with a rod of iron, and also to Judge the angels of the Churches and those that attend in their cults. 

The third person of the Trinity, or Godhead, is not Michael, but the Holy Spirit.  Michael was not born, but created.   Where are you getting this teaching from?

 

[dhchristian]

On 11/21/2019 at 10:00 AM, OneLight said:

The third person of the Trinity, or Godhead, is not Michael, but the Holy Spirit.  Michael was not born, but created.   Where are you getting this teaching from?

I Think what Oseas is speaking about is that Michael is the highest of the angels, and that He is the Angel of the Lord John spoke to in Parts of Revelation. I do not think he is saying he is the third person of the Trinity? I Do not know where he Got "third" but I think he is referring to rank which is not how the triune Godhead works. 

The name Michael means one who is like God. He is not God or part of the triune Godhead. If he is teaching that Michael is part of the triune Godhead he may be a JW?

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, all.

Gentlemen, I perceive that you are too steeped in dichotomies. This error comes from poor definitions of particular words: Words like "heaven," "angel," "church," "salvation," and even "Christ" have definitions that you are getting from THEOLOGICAL POINTS OF VIEW and not from the Bible.

NO ONE will get a correct understanding of the book of Revelation UNTIL one understands these simple words. 

The word ...
"heaven" <-- (comes from) "ouranos" = "the sky,"
"angel" <-- "aggelos" = "a messenger,"
"church" <-- "ekkleesia" = "a called-out (group),"
"salvation" <-- "sooteeria" = "a rescue," and
"Christ" <-- "Christos" <-- "mashiyach" = "an Anointed One," "a Messiah."

And, these are just a FEW of the words that need to be better understood!

For instance, Mark wrote:

Mark 13:24-27 (KJV)

24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

But, Matthew wrote:

Matthew 24:29-31 (KJV)

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

And, Luke wrote:

Luke 21:25-28 (KJV)

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Yeshua` didn't give different speeches upon the Mount of Olives; each disciple, Mathew, John Mark (for Peter), and Luke (for various accounts), gave his own rendition of what was heard from the ONE speech - the ONE discourse - of the Messiah Yeshua` that day. Not one of the three was wrong in writing what he wrote, but what Yeshua` actually SAID that day was a COMPOSITE of the three accounts!

"From the four winds" means "from the four compass directions" and refers to the HORIZONTAL extremes, east, west, north, and south.

"From one end of the sky to the other [end of the sky]" is a VERTICAL relationship! From the LOWEST end of the sky (at the surface of the earth) to the HIGHEST end of the sky (between 200 and 300 miles up, depending on how one sees the rarifaction of air molecules as being the end of the atmosphere). This is also true for the phrase, "from the uttermost part of the earth (the LOWEST part of the land) to the uttermost part of the sky (the HIGHEST point of the atmosphere)." Thus, Luke said, "Look UP, and LIFT UP your heads; for your redemption (buy-back purchase) draws near!"

These phrases have NOTHING to do with "God's Abode" (as is usually interpreted by the "third heaven" error so commonly made)!

 

The other thing I'll say here is that "salvation" is talking about "God's RESCUE of His people, the children of Israel," and is NOT the correct word for God's JUSTIFICATION of an individual through the transfer He made through the sacrifice of His Son, Yeshua`!

2 Corinthians 5:17-21 (KJV)

17 Therefore if any man be in Christ (in the Messiah), he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ (Yeshua` the Messiah), and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 To wit (know; understand), that God was in Christ (in the Messiah), reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ (for the Messiah), as though God did beseech (beg) you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead (on behalf of the Messiah), be ye reconciled to God. 21 For he (God) hath made him (the Messiah or Christ) to be sin for us, who (the Messiah) knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him (in the Messiah).

The words "reconciled," reconciling," and "reconsiliation" come from the Greek words:

2643 katallagee (kat-al-lag-ay'). From katallassoo; exchange (figuratively, adjustment), i.e. Restoration to (the divine) favor -- atonement, reconciliation(-ing).

and, ...

2644 katallassoo (kat-al-las'-so). From kata and allassoo; to change mutually, i.e. (figuratively) to compound a difference -- reconcile.

Verse 21 is the description of this mutual change, this exchange: God traded the Messiah's righteousness (or rather His own righteousness within the Messiah) with our sin! The Messiah became our sin, and we become His righteousness. That's how God can "justify" us, in spite of our sins! He looked at His righteous Son upon the cross, and said, "That's SIN!" And, He then poured out His hatred and judgment upon His Son.

Now, He can look at us and say, "That's my Son's RIGHTEOUSNESS!"

Isaiah 53:4-11 (KJV)

4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

[Retrobyter]

On 11/17/2019 at 10:37 AM, iamlamad said:

My friend, the 5th seal was opened almost 2000 years into our PAST. The 1000 years or Christ's reign will not begin until after the future 70th week has finished and Satan is locked up. The 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th seals were opened as soon as Jesus ascended or shortly after. the 6th seal is future, being the start of the Day of the Lord. Then a few days after, the first trumpet of the 70th week will begin. The trumpets will sound in the first half of the week, then the vials will be poured out in the second half of the week. Finally the week will end with the 7th vial. Then, some unknown time later, Jesus descends as shown in Rev. 19. AFter the battle of Armageddon, and the sheep and goat judgment, Satan will be locked up and Christ's 1000 year reign will start. The DAy of the Lord is going to START and judgment. I too believe it will continue through the 1000 year reign.

Shalom, iamlamad.

No, the DAY of the LORD is going to START with a NATIONAL judgment (a war tribunal) ("the sheep and the goats" of Matthew 25:31-46, but it ENDS with the Great White Throne Judgment. The "DAY of the LORD" is a THOUSAND YEARS LONG!

Matthew 25:31-46 (KJV)

31 "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand,

'Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.'

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying,

'Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?'

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them,

'Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.'

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand,

'Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.'

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying,

'Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?'

45 Then shall he answer them, saying,

'Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.'

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

2 Peter 3:7-13 (KJV)

 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against (just before) the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. (This corresponds to the Great White Throne Judgment of Revelation 20:11-15.)

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (This corresponds to Revelation 20:1-6, the Millennium.)

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. (This corresponds to Revelation 20:7-10.)

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? (This also corresponds to Revelation 20:7-10.)

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. (This corresponds to Revelation 21:1-4.)

It IS the Millennium! It's a THOUSAND-YEAR DAY (because there's no night in the presence of our Lord Yeshua` the Messiah, whose face literally shines brighter than the sun in its strength at noon)!

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, iamlamad.

No, the DAY of the LORD is going to START with a NATIONAL judgment (a war tribunal) ("the sheep and the goats" of Matthew 25:31-46, but it ENDS with the Great White Throne Judgment. The "DAY of the LORD" is a THOUSAND YEARS LONG!

Matthew 25:31-46 (KJV)

31 "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand,

'Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.'

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying,

'Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?'

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them,

'Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.'

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand,

'Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.'

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying,

'Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?'

45 Then shall he answer them, saying,

'Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.'

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

2 Peter 3:7-13 (KJV)

 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against (just before) the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. (This corresponds to the Great White Throne Judgment of Revelation 20:11-15.)

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (This corresponds to Revelation 20:1-6, the Millennium.)

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. (This corresponds to Revelation 20:7-10.)

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? (This also corresponds to Revelation 20:7-10.)

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. (This corresponds to Revelation 21:1-4.)

It IS the Millennium! It's a THOUSAND-YEAR DAY (because there's no night in the presence of our Lord Yeshua` the Messiah, whose face literally shines brighter than the sun in its strength at noon)!

Can we all just believe what the BIBLE says, rather than making stuff up? Read and see what God has said about this: 

Rev. 6:

¹² And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

¹⁷ For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Is the great day of His wrath the same thing as "the day of the Lord?"  You decide:

Isaiah 13:9

Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

I would have to say YES. Therefore the day of the Lord BEGINS at the 6th seal. 

[Retrobyter]

11 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Can we all just believe what the BIBLE says, rather than making stuff up? Read and see what God has said about this: 

Rev. 6:

¹² And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

¹⁷ For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Is the great day of His wrath the same thing as "the day of the Lord?"  You decide:

Isaiah 13:9

Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

I would have to say YES. Therefore the day of the Lord BEGINS at the 6th seal. 

Shalom, iamlamad.

Nope. Sorry, but this conclusion is based in wrong assumptions: First, Isaiah 13:9 is NOT about OUR future! PLEASE, learn to read a passage of Scripture (ESPECIALLY a prophecy) IN ITS CONTEXT!!! HERE'S the context of Isaiah 13:9!

Isaiah 13:1-22 (KJV)

1 The burden of Babylon, which Isaiah the son of Amoz did see.

2 Lift ye up a banner upon the high mountain, exalt the voice unto them, shake the hand, that they may go into the gates of the nobles.

3 I have commanded my sanctified ones, I have also called my mighty ones for mine anger, even them that rejoice in my highness.

4 The noise of a multitude in the mountains, like as of a great people; a tumultuous noise of the kingdoms of nations gathered together: the LORD of hosts mustereth the host of the battle.

5 They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, even the LORD, and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land.

6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.

7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:

8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.

9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. (It's called an "overcast sky!")

11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.

13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

14 And it shall be as the chased roe, and as a sheep that no man taketh up (i.e., like a deer in the headlights): they shall every man turn to his own people, and flee every one into his own land.

15 Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword.

16 Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.

17 Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it.

18 Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye shall not spare children.

19 And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.

20 It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian (Bedouins of Arabia) pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there. (It won't be safe there for people or for livestock!)

21 But wild beasts (scavengers) of the desert shall lie there; and their houses shall be full of doleful creatures (wild, desert beasts); and owls shall dwell there, and satyrs (ostriches and wild goats) shall dance (caper) there.

22 And the wild beasts (jackals or wolves) of the islands shall cry (howl) in their desolate (widow) houses, and dragons (hyenas) in their pleasant palaces: and her time is near to come, and her days shall not be prolonged.

This is a scene from the PAST! It happened when the Babylonian Empire (modern-day Iraq) was conquered by Medo-Persia, which began with the Medes (Northern Iran today) and escalated to the country of Persia (which is now Iran). It happened shortly after Isaiah predicted this would come!

(More later....)

[iamlamad]

7 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, iamlamad.

Nope. Sorry, but this conclusion is based in wrong assumptions: First, Isaiah 13:9 is NOT about OUR future! PLEASE, learn to read a passage of Scripture (ESPECIALLY a prophecy) IN ITS CONTEXT!!! HERE'S the context of Isaiah 13:9!

Isaiah 13:1-22 (KJV)

1 The burden of Babylon, which Isaiah the son of Amoz did see.

2 Lift ye up a banner upon the high mountain, exalt the voice unto them, shake the hand, that they may go into the gates of the nobles.

3 I have commanded my sanctified ones, I have also called my mighty ones for mine anger, even them that rejoice in my highness.

4 The noise of a multitude in the mountains, like as of a great people; a tumultuous noise of the kingdoms of nations gathered together: the LORD of hosts mustereth the host of the battle.

5 They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, even the LORD, and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land.

6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.

7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:

8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.

9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. (It's called an "overcast sky!")

11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.

13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

14 And it shall be as the chased roe, and as a sheep that no man taketh up (i.e., like a deer in the headlights): they shall every man turn to his own people, and flee every one into his own land.

15 Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword.

16 Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.

17 Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it.

18 Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye shall not spare children.

19 And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.

20 It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian (Bedouins of Arabia) pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there. (It won't be safe there for people or for livestock!)

21 But wild beasts (scavengers) of the desert shall lie there; and their houses shall be full of doleful creatures (wild, desert beasts); and owls shall dwell there, and satyrs (ostriches and wild goats) shall dance (caper) there.

22 And the wild beasts (jackals or wolves) of the islands shall cry (howl) in their desolate (widow) houses, and dragons (hyenas) in their pleasant palaces: and her time is near to come, and her days shall not be prolonged.

This is a scene from the PAST! It happened when the Babylonian Empire (modern-day Iraq) was conquered by Medo-Persia, which began with the Medes (Northern Iran today) and escalated to the country of Persia (which is now Iran). It happened shortly after Isaiah predicted this would come!

(More later....)

I am not disagreeing that these verses had meaning for THEN. But they also speak to our future. And I could have used several more from the Old Testament.  Perhaps, since you brought this up, you don't believe in a time of future wrath. Or, perhaps you don't think the 70th week is wrath. 

[Retrobyter]

16 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I am not disagreeing that these verses had meaning for THEN. But they also speak to our future. And I could have used several more from the Old Testament.  Perhaps, since you brought this up, you don't believe in a time of future wrath. Or, perhaps you don't think the 70th week is wrath. 

Shalom, iamlamad.

I've said this before, but it bears repeating: You CAN'T REUSE PROPHECY SCRIPTURES! That's like trying to reuse a Kleenex!

There's such a thing as a "Double Reference.: This is defined in Douglas Connelly's book Bible Prophecy For Blockheads (Zondervan, Grand Rapids, MI, 2002) in the Techno-Speak section on page 33:

Quote

"The term double reference is used to describe a Scripture passage in which part of the passage is fulfilled at one time while another part is fulfilled at a later time. Zechariah 9:9-10 is a clear example. Verse 9 was fulfilled during Jesus' earthly ministry; verse 10 will be fulfilled at Jesus' second coming."

HOWEVER, a Scripture passage CANNOT be reused to talk of two different events in human history with the same words! Think about it for a moment:

Moses said in the Torah (Pentateuch),

Deuteronomy 18:15-22 (KJV)

15 "The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; 16 According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying,

'Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.'

17 And the LORD said unto me,

'They have well spoken that which they have spoken. 18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him. 20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.'

21 And if thou say in thine heart,

'How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?'

22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him."

So, each prophecy should each have its own fulfillment. If the fulfillment never comes, THEN one knows that the one who spoke the "prophecy" is/was a FALSE (LYING) PROPHET!

Now, a prophet spoke prophecies both near and far off into the future. IF that prophet's near prophecies didn't come true, then they were to be labeled a "FALSE prophet," not to be afraid of him, and to stone that so-called "prophet," for lying about what he claimed YHWH wanted him to speak.

Now, here's the part to consider: If a particular prophecy could be fulfilled twice, what would keep the potentially "false prophet" from claiming that it wasn't for THIS time; it was for the future fulfillment, just to spare his neck?

No, each prophecy of God must have EXACTLY ONE fulfillment and no other. It's a ONE-TO-ONE relationship! If it was a ONE-TO-MANY relationship, then one couldn't tell WHEN the prophecy had been fulfilled so they could judge whether that prophet was from God, and the above Scripture passage would be MEANINGLESS!

Now, the second half of the Seventieth Seven (which is all that is left) is not a time of wrath, but a time of RESCUE. So, that RESCUE includes wrath toward those who are threatening His people, but the RESCUE is a proof that the Messiah is indeed God's Messiah come to reign over Israel (and consequently over the entire earth).

SO,...

If you can say, "I am not disagreeing that these verses had meaning for THEN," then there IS NO future fulfillment! The one precludes the other.

Edited November 27, 2019 by Retrobyter
To complete the logic.

[iamlamad]

58 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, iamlamad.

I've said this before, but it bears repeating: You CAN'T REUSE PROPHECY SCRIPTURES! That's like trying to reuse a Kleenex!

There's such a thing as a "Double Reference.: This is defined in Douglas Connelly's book Bible Prophecy For Blockheads (Zondervan, Grand Rapids, MI, 2002) in the Techno-Speak section on page 33:

HOWEVER, a Scripture passage CANNOT be reused to talk of two different events in human history with the same words! Think about it for a moment:

Moses said in the Torah (Pentateuch),

Deuteronomy 18:15-22 (KJV)

15 "The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; 16 According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying,

'Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.'

17 And the LORD said unto me,

'They have well spoken that which they have spoken. 18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him. 20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.'

21 And if thou say in thine heart,

'How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?'

22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him."

So, each prophecy should each have its own fulfillment. If the fulfillment never comes, THEN one knows that the one who spoke the "prophecy" is/was a FALSE (LYING) PROPHET!

Now, a prophet spoke prophecies both near and far off into the future. IF that prophet's near prophecies didn't come true, then they were to be labeled a "FALSE prophet," not to be afraid of him, and to stone that so-called "prophet," for lying about what he claimed YHWH wanted him to speak.

Now, here's the part to consider: If a particular prophecy could be fulfilled twice, what would keep the potentially "false prophet" from claiming that it wasn't for THIS time; it was for the future fulfillment, just to spare his neck?

No, each prophecy of God must have EXACTLY ONE fulfillment and no other. It's a ONE-TO-ONE relationship! If it was a ONE-TO-MANY relationship, then one couldn't tell WHEN the prophecy had been fulfilled so they could judge whether that prophet was from God, and the above Scripture passage would be MEANINGLESS!

Now, the second half of the Seventieth Seven (which is all that is left) is not a time of wrath, but a time of RESCUE. So, that RESCUE includes wrath toward those who are threatening His people, but the RESCUE is a proof that the Messiah is indeed God's Messiah come to reign over Israel (and consequently over the entire earth).

SO,...

If you can say, "I am not disagreeing that these verses had meaning for THEN," then there IS NO future fulfillment! The one precludes the other.