BibleGuy Posted November 19, 2019 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 777 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 224 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/05/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted November 19, 2019 40 minutes ago, maryjayne said: I am a spiritual babe here, but I feel uncomfortable with the emphasis on Torah. It somehow minimises Jesus sacrifice, and make sound like it was incomplete and left salvation unfinished somehow. That can't be right. You are correct. Jesus' sacrifice takes away our sins....nothing else. Be strong in that truth! But we can't ignore the fact that Jesus also requires Torah (Mt.5:19)...even sacrifices for people of all nations (Mk.11:17 citing Is. 56:7)... We can't ignore the fact that Jesus comes to restore sacrifices (Mal.3:4)....even though the blood of Christ is ALONE what takes away our sins.... And we can't ignore our future (Dt.30:1-8) when we will, again, obey 100% of all Torah.... So you are right! JESUS BLOOD is ALONE what takes away our sins.... But there's a MUCH BIGGER story in Scripture which many of us have missed......let's not miss it! blessings.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted November 19, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.23 Reputation: 9,762 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted November 19, 2019 17 minutes ago, BibleGuy said: You are correct. Jesus' sacrifice takes away our sins....nothing else. Be strong in that truth! But we can't ignore the fact that Jesus also requires Torah (Mt.5:19)...even sacrifices for people of all nations (Mk.11:17 citing Is. 56:7)... Matthew 5:19 was true for that time as Jesus had not been crucified. Mark 11:17 speaks about prayer, not a sacrifice. 17 minutes ago, BibleGuy said: We can't ignore the fact that Jesus comes to restore sacrifices (Mal.3:4)....even though the blood of Christ is ALONE what takes away our sins.... You are reading into scripture what is not there. When did Jesus become the refiners fire while ministering? That is when He returns for the second time. 17 minutes ago, BibleGuy said: And we can't ignore our future (Dt.30:1-8) when we will, again, obey 100% of all Torah.... Again, this is futuristic and to the Jewish nation only. 17 minutes ago, BibleGuy said: So you are right! JESUS BLOOD is ALONE what takes away our sins.... But there's a MUCH BIGGER story in Scripture which many of us have missed......let's not miss it! blessings.... Let's not read into scripture what is not there, nor twist scripture by taking it out of context only to try and apply it for today. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coliseum Posted November 19, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 133 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 1,123 Content Per Day: 0.66 Reputation: 2,055 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/07/2019 Status: Offline Author Share Posted November 19, 2019 1 minute ago, maryjayne said: To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; 21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law. 22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some. Well said Maryjayne. It is very important to know your audience, or a person's words are like a wind at sea; they go all over the place and yet with nowhere to go. One must know who he is speaking to. ❤ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BibleGuy Posted November 20, 2019 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 777 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 224 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/05/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted November 20, 2019 4 hours ago, maryjayne said: What sacrifices do you mean? Well, Mal.3:4 has Jesus restoring the Covenant with Levi, so that it will be "as in the days of old, as in former years". The Levites offer sacrifices of various kinds.....you can read all about it in Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. Again, sacrifices will be performed by the LEVITES when Jer.33 (the Davidic Covenant) is fulfilled. Again, sacrifices will be performed by the LEVITES when Is. 66 (Sabbath) is fulfilled, in the future. Again, Jesus comes to REBUILD a temple (Zec.6). What happens in the temple? Sacrifices! LOTS of sacrifices (Eze.40-47). Again, ANY nation that does not participate in the globally-required feast of Sukkot (Tabernacles) will suffer punishment (Zec.14). Again, when we return to inherit the land promised to us (Mt.5:5;Gal.3:29) we will again obey 100% of ALL Torah (thus including sacrifices, Dt. 30:1-8). Yes, JESUS alone is the once-for-all sacrifice that takes our sins away.... But Jesus also comes to restore these animal sacrifices as an ongoing shadow that points to Christ. Remember the shadow? It's referenced in PRESENT TENSE (not past tense), in Col. 2:17 and Heb. 10:1. Paul did not oppose sacrifices. Paul CONDONED sacrifices (Ac.20) to prove that Paul "walked orderly according to the law" (Ac.20). THOUSANDS of 1st-century Christians were zealous for all Torah (thus including sacrifices, Ac. 21:20). Some Christians were even animal-sacrificing priests! (Ac.6:7). The SAME TORAH of Moses passes into the New Covenant (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10;10:16). So, we should not be surprised to see animal sacrifices occurring in the New Testament era...and also in the prophesied future times. After all, Jesus desires sacrifices for people from all nations (citing Is.56:7 at Mk.11:17). blessings... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BibleGuy Posted November 20, 2019 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 777 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 224 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/05/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted November 20, 2019 4 hours ago, OneLight said: Matthew 5:19 was true for that time as Jesus had not been crucified. Mark 11:17 speaks about prayer, not a sacrifice. You are reading into scripture what is not there. When did Jesus become the refiners fire while ministering? That is when He returns for the second time. Again, this is futuristic and to the Jewish nation only. Let's not read into scripture what is not there, nor twist scripture by taking it out of context only to try and apply it for today. Hi there! "Matthew 5:19 was true for that time as Jesus had not been crucified. " OOPS! ALL Jesus' pre-crucifixion teachings apply to ALL disciples of ALL nations (given Mt. 28:19-20). That's why Mt. 5:19 applies to you. "Mark 11:17 speaks about prayer, not a sacrifice." Mk. 11:17 quotes Is. 56:7 which (IN CONTEXT!) confirms that Jesus expects associated SACRIFICES! Let's be careful to understand the CONTEXT of the passages our Messiah cites. "You are reading into scripture what is not there. " Actually, I simply noted that Is. 56:7 (quoted and DESIRED by Jesus!) requires sacrifices. "When did Jesus become the refiners fire while ministering? That is when He returns for the second time." Right! Mal. 3:4 is YET FUTURE....thus the restoration (by Jesus) of Levitical/ceremonial/sacrificial Torah activities are YET FUTURE. You're right! "Again, this is futuristic and to the Jewish nation only." There is no "Jewish nation".... Rather, there is ALL ISRAEL. And YOU are not excluded from Israel (Eph.2:12). Believing Gentiles ARE the Israelites of Hos. 1 (citing Hos. 1 at Rom.9:24-26). Christians partake in the New Covenant with ISRAEL (Jer.31:31;Heb.8:8), thus proving that all Christians are ISRAELITES. CONCLUSION: The future of ISRAEL is YOUR future! It's MY future! It's OUR future! And a GREAT future indeed.... "Let's not read into scripture what is not there, nor twist scripture by taking it out of context only to try and apply it for today." Good point! That's why Mal.3:4 (and the associated Levitical animal sacrificial activity) is surely yet FUTURE. And that's why we do NOT ignore the context of Is. 56:7 (quoted at Mk.11:17) which proves Jesus desires SACRIFICES for people of all nations. blessings... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BibleGuy Posted November 20, 2019 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 777 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 224 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/05/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted November 20, 2019 4 hours ago, maryjayne said: Romans 7 v 1-6 will help you to understand your error with this: Freed from the law 7 Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law [a]has dominion over a man as long as he lives? 2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man. 4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter. Hi there! Thanks for bringing up Rom. 7....LOTS going on there! Not sure what "error" you have in mind.... Maybe you think I'm wrong to suppose we should obey Torah? But then Paul would NOT continue to serve Torah....but Paul DOES! (Rom.7:25). Paul would NOT require all Torah to correct and train and rebuke us....but he does! (2Ti.3:16). Paul would NOT require the Corinthians to keep God's commands which, of course, are contained in the written Torah of Moses (1Ki.2:3)....but Paul DOES require this! (1Cor.7:19) And, of COURSE we are not bound to the law of sinful disobedience and death (Dt.30:11-15;Rom.8:2). Rather, we obey the law of OBEDIENCE (2Ti.3:16;1Cor.7:19;Mt.5:19;1Jn.5:3) and LIFE (Mt.4:4;Dt.8:3;30:11-15;32:47). Of COURSE we are free from the law of sinful disobedience and death.... Rather, we obey the law of OBEDIENCE (2Ti.3:16;1Cor.7:19;Mt.5:19;1Jn.5:3) and LIFE (Mt.4:4;Dt.8:3;30:11-15;32:47). Of COURSE we are dead to the law of sinful disobedience and death.... Rather, we obey the law of OBEDIENCE (2Ti.3:16;1Cor.7:19;Mt.5:19;1Jn.5:3) and LIFE (Mt.4:4;Dt.8:3;30:11-15;32:47). And Paul expects us to bear FRUIT (Rom.7:4;Gal.5:22-23). What kind of fruit? LOVE and FAITH (Gal.5:22-23). But LOVE requires TORAH (1Jn.5:3;Dt.6:5,25;Jn.14:15;Mt.5:19). FAITH is of TORAH (Mt.23:23;Dt.32:20;Ps.119:30,86,138;Gal.3:11 citing Hab.2:4;Rom.10:8 citing Dt. 30:14;etc.) So Paul requires TORAH-OBEDIENT fruit of love and faith. We are NOT IN THE FLESH (Rom.7:5) which disobeys Torah (Rom.8:7). Thus we now OBEY Torah! And we SERVE IN THE SPIRIT (Rom.7:6)......serve what? TORAH! (Rom.7:25). NOT in the oldness of the letter without the Spirit (Rom.7:6). See how Rom.7:1-6 is consistent with the Torah-obedient faith taught and required in Scripture? blessings... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Bought 1953 Posted November 20, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 13 Topic Count: 48 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,726 Content Per Day: 2.88 Reputation: 6,258 Days Won: 5 Joined: 12/03/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted November 20, 2019 5 hours ago, maryjayne said: I am a spiritual babe here, but I feel uncomfortable with the emphasis on Torah. It somehow minimises Jesus sacrifice, and make sound like it was incomplete and left salvation unfinished somehow. That can't be right. You have the ability to smell a Spiritual Rat...... “ Spiritual Babes” lack that ability .....congratulations on your graduation into Spiritual Understanding and Truth ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BibleGuy Posted November 20, 2019 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 777 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 224 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/05/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted November 20, 2019 4 hours ago, maryjayne said: @BibleGuy This is another helpful scripture for you: 1 Corinthians 9:19-23 19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more. 20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; 21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law. 22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some. 23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it. Hi again! Remember, there are TWO LAWS! LAW #1: The law of sinful disobedience and death (Dt.30:11-15). LAW #2: The law of righteous obedience and life (Dt.30:11-15). Rom. 8:2 merely proves that Paul is not under LAW #1. Yet Paul REQUIRES Law #2 (2Ti.3:16;1Cor.7:19). So which "law" is Paul referencing in 1 Cor. 9? Obviously LAW #1....otherwise you've got a BIG CONTRADICTION problem here. Thus, 1 Cor. 9 refers to Jews who are under Law #1...and Paul says (in 1Cor.9) that Paul is NOT under Law #1. Moreover, Paul clearly states that Paul is UNDER THE LAW OF CHRIST (1Cor.9:21)....and Christ commands TORAH! (Mt.4:4;5:19-20;7:21-23;13:41-42;22:37;23:2-3,23,34;Lk.10:25-28). So again, we see Paul telling us that Paul is UNDER LAW #2. Again, Paul AFFIRMS the gospel (1Cor.9:23) which is the word of faith Paul preached (Rom.10:8). But this word of faith is a TORAH-OBEDIENT word of faith! (citing Dt.30:14 at Rom.10:8). So again, Paul has confirmed that Paul is under Law #2. And again, Paul told those SAME CORINTHIANS that they should keep God's commands (1Cor.7:19) which, of course, are contained in the written Torah of Moses (1Ki.2:3). Hope this helps you understand Paul better.... blessings.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BibleGuy Posted November 20, 2019 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 777 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 224 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/05/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted November 20, 2019 4 hours ago, maryjayne said: And this @BibleGuy: Romans 6 v 12-15 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13 and do not go on presenting [g]the members of your body to sin as [h]instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as [i]instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace. 15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! Hi again! Thanks for sharing these important passages! 1. DO NOT SIN (Rom.6:12). 2. SIN is Torah-disobedience (Rom.3:20;7:7;1Jn.3:4). 3. Do NOT disobey Torah (from 1 and 2). 4. OBEY Torah (from 3) See how that logic works? Again, we should not be unrighteous (Rom.6:14)....but then we should do righteousness! What righteousness? Torah! (Dt. 6:25)....after all, Jesus applies Dt. 6 to you (Mt.22:37). Jesus never told you to ignore the context of the passages he quotes....that would be silly. Again, Rom.6:13 affirms GOD who requires TORAH (Dt.1:3;5:27-33;etc.). So again, Paul is affirming we should obey Torah. Again, Rom. 6:13 affirms we should do righteousness....just like Jesus who says we should do Torah-obedient righteousness so as to insure that we enter into the forthcoming kingdom (Mt.5:20)..... I KNOW....only the BLOOD cleanses us from sin (1Jn.1:7)....but Jesus ALSO requires Mt.5:20 too.....we can't pick and choose.....we need to uphold ALL Scripture. Rom. 6:14 "sin shall not be master over you".....well then, stop sinning means OBEY TORAH (given Rom.3:20;7:7)....so let's obey Torah, and let's NOT allow sin to be master over us! Again, Rom. 6:15 says we should NOT SIN....which means OBEY TORAH (given Rom.3:20;7:7;1Jn.3:4). Again, Rom. 6:15 says we are under grace....and grace is given to the humble (Jas.4:6;Pr.3:34), and humble people obey Torah (Nu.12:3;Ex.33:13;Ps.25:9;Zep.2:3). So, Rom. 6:15 says we are "not under law".....but WHICH LAW? Remember? There are TWO LAWS: Law #1: The law of sinful disobedience and death Law #2: The law of righteous obedience and life So, in Romans, does Paul clarify WHICH law we are NOT under? Answer: YES! Romans 8:2 plainly states that we are not under Law #1. And that same Paul says we are justified by doing the law (Rom.2:13) in faith (Rom.5:1); thus Paul REQUIRES Law #2. So, Rom. 6:15 must again be confirming that Paul is not under Law #1. I agree with Paul! We are NOT under Law #1. Rather, we are under Law #2 (1Cor.7:19;2Ti.3:16). After all, Paul affirms the New Covenant (1Cor.11) which is given as Torah (Jer.31:33)....so Paul is OBVIOUSLY expecting us to obey the Torah of the covenant in which we partake. Remember? We partake in the covenants as Israelites (Eph.2:12)....and Israelites obey Torah (Mal.4:4)....and the covenants are given as Torah (e.g., Jer.31:33).... blessings... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BibleGuy Posted November 20, 2019 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 777 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 224 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/05/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted November 20, 2019 20 minutes ago, Blood Bought 1953 said: You have the ability to smell a Spiritual Rat...... “ Spiritual Babes” lack that ability .....congratulations on your graduation into Spiritual Understanding and Truth ! Hi there! Jesus calls people names (hypocrites, fools, blind, whitewashed tombs, serpents, vipers...Mt.23). Why? Because they do NOT OBEY ALL TORAH (Mt.23:23). Hmmmm....... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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