THE TORAH --- WRONG CONCLUSION

[omega2xx]

38 minutes ago, BibleGuy said:

Ok then....we're playing the game of "LET'S ONLY QUOTE SCRIPTURE"!  

Fun game!

Heb.8:10   ὅτι αὕτη ἡ διαθήκη ἣν διαθήσομαι τῷ οἴκῳ Ἰσραὴλ μετὰ τὰς ἡμέρας ἐκείνας λέγει κύριος· διδοὺς νόμους μου εἰς τὴν διάνοιαν αὐτῶν καὶ ἐπὶ καρδίας αὐτῶν ἐπιγράψω αὐτούς καὶ ἔσομαι αὐτοῖς εἰς θεὸν καὶ αὐτοὶ ἔσονταί μοι εἰς λαόν

 

Heb. 10:16 "Αὕτη ἡ διαθήκη ἣν διαθήσομαι πρὸς αὐτοὺς μετὰ τὰς ἡμέρας ἐκείνας λέγει κύριος· διδοὺς νόμους μου ἐπὶ καρδίας αὐτῶν καὶ ἐπὶ τῶν διανοιῶν αὐτῶν ἐπιγράψω αὐτούς"

 

So, I'll point it out (in case you're Greek weak....).....these both state that the LAW is essential to the New Covenant.

That's a GREAT reason for us to OBEY Torah (Law).

blessings...

 

The verses you quoted from Hebrew are wonderful, one of my favorite books, but most of them have nothing to do with this subject.

You have also misunderstood the question. Let me put it this way:  is obedience to the law requires to receive the benefits of following God? It is a no brainer that followers of God should obey any laws, He has not eliminated or that can't be followed as prescribed in the Bible.

Obeying the law is not essential  for the new covenant.  God is going to institute the new   covenant no matter what man does or does not do. Read  it again and note how many time God says, "I will."

Love, peace, joy

[BibleGuy]

6 minutes ago, omega2xx said:

Love, peace, joy

 

 

Hi again!

"What I am trying to find out  is obedience to the Torah a condition to receive the benefits  of folloing God?"

Righteously obey and live (Dt. 30:11-15; also Mt.4:4 citing Dt.8:3 referring to Torah).

Sinfully disobey and die (Dt.30:11-15; also Mt. 13:41-42).

We are justified by law (Rom.2:13) and faith (Rom.5:1) TOGETHER.

Paul said both.  So BOTH are true.

 

"God eliminated the dietary laws(Acts 10:121-15)"

OOPS!  Ac. 10 proves that Peter's vision is about PEOPLE (not food).  Ac. 10:28  "I shall not call any MAN common or unclean..."

It's about the DUDE...not the FOOD....

Thus, Peter CONTINUES to apply Lev. 11 to you (1Pe.1:16).

 

"I Pet 1:16 is not about the dietary laws."

Sure it is!  Peter explicitly quotes LEVITICUS 11 as proof of how we should be holy....(quoting Lev. 11 at 1Pe.1:16).

And HOW does Lev. 11 confirm we should be holy?  Answer:  By obeying Torah!  (yes, even the very Leviticus 11 passage which Peter quoted....)

If Peter quotes a passage and applies it to you...then it applies to you!

And Peter quotes Lev. 11 (1Pe.1:16) and applies it to you.

 

"Also remember, Jesus said  "it is not what goes into the man that defiles Him, it is what comes out of the man(Mk 7:18-23)."

Of COURSE all foods are clean!  But NOT ALL THINGS ARE FOOD!

Thus, Jesus (in Mark 7:8-9,13) is ANGRY because the religious leaders DISOBEYED TORAH.

So we dare not disobey Torah....it makes Jesus ANGRY!

That's another good reason to obey Torah (including Lev. 11), as Jesus requires (Mk.7:8-9,13).

"Priest related to Levi are no longer available, although some say there is."

True.  We are still waiting for Jesus to restore the covenant with Levi (Mal.3:4).

THEN sacrifices will be restored again "as in the days of old, as in former years"....this has not yet happened.

But it will happen! (Dt.30:1-8;Eze.40-47;Zec.14;Jer.33;Is.66).

 

"That verse does not even hint at animal sacrifice."

Of COURSE it does!  Priests are the ones who do SACRIFICES....and PRIESTS were CHRISTIANS (Ac.6:7).

Thus, CHRISTIANS were doing ANIMAL SACRIFICES!

Paul likewise condoned sacrifices, to prove he "walked orderly according to the Torah" (Ac.21); YOU should imitate that Torah-obedient model (1Cor.11:1;Php.4:9).

THOUSANDS of 1st-century Christians were likewise zealous for ALL Torah (thus including sacrifices).

So, when sacrificial Torah is restored (per Mal.3:4), WE CHRISTIANS will again be able to partake even in Torah sacrifices, just as Jesus desires (citing Is.56:7 at Mk.11:17).

 

"You still need to address my question about is obedience necessary for receiving he benefits of God."

Either you OBEY or DISOBEY.

What happens to those who DISOBEY? (Mt.5:19-20;7:21-23;13:41-42)....that's not a good benefit!

So we OBEY! (Mt.5:19)

Of COURSE we should obey (Jn.14:15;1Jn.5:3)....otherwise we are a child of the devil (1Jn.3:10) who will NOT inherit the forthcoming kingdom (Mt.5:20).

Now, if you have been ignorant...then that's another story.....God makes provision for ignorance....and there's LOTS of ignorance throughout Christendom....

 

"Obeying Passover has the same problem as following any of the ceremonial laws---no priest related to Levi."

True....but Paul still requires it (1Cor.5:7-8)...so it's evidently a COMMEMORATIVE requirement....not a true and Torah-complete literal requirement.....

 

" Actually I Cor 5:7-8 tells us celebrate it spiritually, not literally. "

NOTHING in 1Cor.5:7-8 tells us to celebrate "NOT LITERALLY".....you just made that up.

There is no "NOT LITERALLY" in the text....

 

"Once our sacrifice  has been made, that is all that is required."

When Dt. 30:1-8 happens, 100% of ALL Torah will again be required....

 

" Not only that, most of the Jewish celebration of Passover  is not in accordance with the requirements of the Bible."

Of course....we celebrate in COMMEMORATIVE fashion.....we can't fully obey Torah, because Jesus has not yet restored the covenant with Levi (per Mal.3:4).

 

"You seem to be advocating a form of legalism(obedience to the law is required to receive the benefits of following God). which is totally rejected in the NT."

LEGALISM is seeking to earn salvation by works without faith.  I REJECT legalism....because it's unbiblical.

But receiving God's benefits IS conditional upon our behavior!

Think about it!

Either you OBEY and are called GREAT (Mt.5:19), or you DISOBEY and are called LEAST (Mt. 5:19)....

or worse (Mt.5:20)....

or worse (Mt.7:21-23)....

or worse (Mt.13:41-42).

And yes....Jesus' teachings actually apply to all disciples of all nations (Mt.28:19-20).....

That's not legalism....that's just BIBLE.

 

But as I said....most of us are VERY ignorant.....and Torah makes provision for ignorance....

 

blessings...

 

 

 

 

 

[BibleGuy]

12 minutes ago, omega2xx said:

The verses you quoted from Hebrew are wonderful, one of my favorite books, but most of them have nothing to do with this subject.

You have also misunderstood the question. Let me put it this way:  is obedience to the law requires to receive the benefits of following God? It is a no brainer that followers of God should obey any laws, He has not eliminated or that can't be followed as prescribed in the Bible.

Obeying the law is not essential  for the new covenant.  God is going to institute the new   covenant no matter what man does or does not do. Read  it again and note how many time God says, "I will."

Love, peace, joy

"The verses you quoted from Hebrew are wonderful, one of my favorite books, but most of them have nothing to do with this subject."

Heb. 8:10 quotes Jer.31:33 which places TORAH into the NEW COVENANT.  Thus we New Covenant Christians must obey TORAH!

 

"is obedience to the law requires to receive the benefits of following God? "

Of course....obey and be blessed (Dt. 30:11-15)....disobey and be cursed (Dt.30:11-15).

SAME Torah of Moses passes into the NEW Covenant (Jer.31:33 cited at Heb. 8:10;10:16).

 

"Obeying the law is not essential  for the new covenant. "

Of course it is!  TORAH ("תּוֹרָה" Jer. 31:33) passes directly into the NEW COVENANT....

That's not just a pretty word...it's the TORAH which requires OBEDIENCE! (also in 2Ti.3:16;1Cor.7:19;Mt. 5:19;1Jn.5:3;etc.)

The Spirit testifies Torah should be in your heart (Heb.10:15-16)...and if it's in your heart, then you OBEY IT (Dt.30:14).

And sure enough, Paul says that TORAH-OBEDIENCE (Dt.30:14) IS the very word of faith Paul preaches (citing Dt. 30:14 at Rom.10:8).

 

Disobeying the very TORAH of the New Covenant in which you partake?  That makes NO SENSE.  And it's unbiblical.  So OBEY!

 

"God is going to institute the new   covenant no matter what man does or does not do. "

AND....the NEW COVENANT consists of TORAH written upon our HEARTS (Jer.31:33) so that we OBEY IT (Dt.30:14).

 

"Read  it again and note how many time God says, "I will.""

Of COURSE God will make sure that the New Covenant is fully fulfilled!

And this includes TORAH IN OUR HEARTS (Jer.31:33) so that we OBEY IT (Dt.30:14).

 

blessings...

 

 

[BibleGuy]

27 minutes ago, Alive said:

⁹ then He ¹said, “^aBEHOLD, I HAVE COME TO DO YOUR WILL.” He takes away the first in order to establish the second. ¹⁰ By ¹this will we have been ^asanctified through ^bthe offering of ^cthe body of Jesus Christ ^donce for all.

 

Heb. 10:11   Every priest stands daily ministering and ^aoffering time after time the same sacrifices, which ^bcan never take away sins; ¹² but He, having offered one sacrifice ^afor ¹sins ^bfor all time, ^cSAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD, ¹³ waiting from that time onward ^aUNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE A FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET. ¹⁴ For by one offering He has ^aperfected ^bfor all time those who are ¹sanctified. ¹⁵ And ^athe Holy Spirit also testifies to us; for after saying,

¹⁶  “^aTHIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM

AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD:

I WILL PUT MY LAWS UPON THEIR HEART,

AND ON THEIR MIND I WILL WRITE THEM,”

He then says,

¹⁷  “^aAND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS

I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE.”

¹⁸ Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin.

 

Heb. 10:19   Therefore, brethren, since we ^ahave confidence to ^benter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, ²⁰ by ^aa new and living way which He inaugurated for us through ^bthe veil, that is, His flesh, ²¹ and since we have ^aa great priest ^bover the house of God, ²² let us ^adraw near with a ¹sincere heart in ^bfull assurance of faith, having our hearts ^csprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies ^dwashed with pure water.

Ok....so....you just quoted Heb. 10:16 which proves Torah should be in our hearts....and that means it should be OBEYED (Dt. 30:14)....and sure enough, Paul applies Dt. 30:14 to you (Rom.10:8).

Agreed?

 

[omega2xx]

1 hour ago, BibleGuy said:

 

Hi again!

"What I am trying to find out  is obedience to the Torah a condition to receive the benefits  of folloing God?"

Righteously obey and live (Dt. 30:11-15; also Mt.4:4 citing Dt.8:3 referring to Torah).

Sinfully disobey and die (Dt.30:11-15; also Mt. 13:41-42).

We are justified by law (Rom.2:13) and faith (Rom.5:1) TOGETHER.

Paul said both.  So BOTH are true.

 

"God eliminated the dietary laws(Acts 10:121-15)"

OOPS!  Ac. 10 proves that Peter's vision is about PEOPLE (not food).  Ac. 10:28  "I shall not call any MAN common or unclean..."

It's about the DUDE...not the FOOD....

Thus, Peter CONTINUES to apply Lev. 11 to you (1Pe.1:16).

 

"I Pet 1:16 is not about the dietary laws."

Sure it is!  Peter explicitly quotes LEVITICUS 11 as proof of how we should be holy....(quoting Lev. 11 at 1Pe.1:16).

And HOW does Lev. 11 confirm we should be holy?  Answer:  By obeying Torah!  (yes, even the very Leviticus 11 passage which Peter quoted....)

If Peter quotes a passage and applies it to you...then it applies to you!

And Peter quotes Lev. 11 (1Pe.1:16) and applies it to you.

 

"Also remember, Jesus said  "it is not what goes into the man that defiles Him, it is what comes out of the man(Mk 7:18-23)."

Of COURSE all foods are clean!  But NOT ALL THINGS ARE FOOD!

Thus, Jesus (in Mark 7:8-9,13) is ANGRY because the religious leaders DISOBEYED TORAH.

So we dare not disobey Torah....it makes Jesus ANGRY!

That's another good reason to obey Torah (including Lev. 11), as Jesus requires (Mk.7:8-9,13).

"Priest related to Levi are no longer available, although some say there is."

True.  We are still waiting for Jesus to restore the covenant with Levi (Mal.3:4).

THEN sacrifices will be restored again "as in the days of old, as in former years"....this has not yet happened.

But it will happen! (Dt.30:1-8;Eze.40-47;Zec.14;Jer.33;Is.66).

 

"That verse does not even hint at animal sacrifice."

Of COURSE it does!  Priests are the ones who do SACRIFICES....and PRIESTS were CHRISTIANS (Ac.6:7).

Thus, CHRISTIANS were doing ANIMAL SACRIFICES!

Paul likewise condoned sacrifices, to prove he "walked orderly according to the Torah" (Ac.21); YOU should imitate that Torah-obedient model (1Cor.11:1;Php.4:9).

THOUSANDS of 1st-century Christians were likewise zealous for ALL Torah (thus including sacrifices).

So, when sacrificial Torah is restored (per Mal.3:4), WE CHRISTIANS will again be able to partake even in Torah sacrifices, just as Jesus desires (citing Is.56:7 at Mk.11:17).

 

"You still need to address my question about is obedience necessary for receiving he benefits of God."

Either you OBEY or DISOBEY.

What happens to those who DISOBEY? (Mt.5:19-20;7:21-23;13:41-42)....that's not a good benefit!

So we OBEY! (Mt.5:19)

Of COURSE we should obey (Jn.14:15;1Jn.5:3)....otherwise we are a child of the devil (1Jn.3:10) who will NOT inherit the forthcoming kingdom (Mt.5:20).

Now, if you have been ignorant...then that's another story.....God makes provision for ignorance....and there's LOTS of ignorance throughout Christendom....

 

"Obeying Passover has the same problem as following any of the ceremonial laws---no priest related to Levi."

True....but Paul still requires it (1Cor.5:7-8)...so it's evidently a COMMEMORATIVE requirement....not a true and Torah-complete literal requirement.....

 

" Actually I Cor 5:7-8 tells us celebrate it spiritually, not literally. "

NOTHING in 1Cor.5:7-8 tells us to celebrate "NOT LITERALLY".....you just made that up.

There is no "NOT LITERALLY" in the text....

 

"Once our sacrifice  has been made, that is all that is required."

When Dt. 30:1-8 happens, 100% of ALL Torah will again be required....

 

" Not only that, most of the Jewish celebration of Passover  is not in accordance with the requirements of the Bible."

Of course....we celebrate in COMMEMORATIVE fashion.....we can't fully obey Torah, because Jesus has not yet restored the covenant with Levi (per Mal.3:4).

 

"You seem to be advocating a form of legalism(obedience to the law is required to receive the benefits of following God). which is totally rejected in the NT."

LEGALISM is seeking to earn salvation by works without faith.  I REJECT legalism....because it's unbiblical.

But receiving God's benefits IS conditional upon our behavior!

Think about it!

Either you OBEY and are called GREAT (Mt.5:19), or you DISOBEY and are called LEAST (Mt. 5:19)....

or worse (Mt.5:20)....

or worse (Mt.7:21-23)....

or worse (Mt.13:41-42).

And yes....Jesus' teachings actually apply to all disciples of all nations (Mt.28:19-20).....

That's not legalism....that's just BIBLE.

 

But as I said....most of us are VERY ignorant.....and Torah makes provision for ignorance....

 

blessings...

Instead  of continuing to go back and forth over the same ground, let me ask you 2 questions--Do you obey all of the Torah perfectly all the Time, and when you die and Moses meets you at the pearly gate ask you why should I let you into God's perfect heaven, what will you say?

Love, peace, joy

 

 

 

 

 

[BibleGuy]

1 minute ago, omega2xx said:

 

"Do you obey all of the Torah perfectly all the Time, and when you die and Moses meets you at the pearly gate ask you why should I let you into God's perfect heaven, what will you say?"

Hi again!  Thanks for asking....

I seek to continue to grow in faithful obedience to presently observable Torah portions....

Jesus requires perfection (Mt.5:48) and says it's easy (Mt.11:30)....

PERFECTION is not SINLESSNESS.....keep that in mind.

So sure, I seem to be doing all right....as I continue to grow day-by-day.....but there's always more to learn and more to grow.....

 

"when you die and Moses meets you at the pearly gate ask you why should I let you into God's perfect heaven, what will you say?"

Obviously....the blood of Jesus purifies me from all sin (1Jn.1:7).  That's the ticket!

And what do we do on this exciting ride?  We obey Torah! (1Jn.5:3).

 

CONCLUSION: Jesus bought us the ticket....WE participate in the Torah-obedient ride!

But HE ALONE bought the ticket.

 

 

 

 

 

[omega2xx]

2 hours ago, BibleGuy said:

"The verses you quoted from Hebrew are wonderful, one of my favorite books, but most of them have nothing to do with this subject."

Heb. 8:10 quotes Jer.31:33 which places TORAH into the NEW COVENANT.  Thus we New Covenant Christians must obey TORAH!

 

"is obedience to the law requires to receive the benefits of following God? "

Of course....obey and be blessed (Dt. 30:11-15)....disobey and be cursed (Dt.30:11-15).

SAME Torah of Moses passes into the NEW Covenant (Jer.31:33 cited at Heb. 8:10;10:16).

 

"Obeying the law is not essential  for the new covenant. "

Of course it is!  TORAH ("תּוֹרָה" Jer. 31:33) passes directly into the NEW COVENANT....

That's not just a pretty word...it's the TORAH which requires OBEDIENCE! (also in 2Ti.3:16;1Cor.7:19;Mt. 5:19;1Jn.5:3;etc.)

The Spirit testifies Torah should be in your heart (Heb.10:15-16)...and if it's in your heart, then you OBEY IT (Dt.30:14).

And sure enough, Paul says that TORAH-OBEDIENCE (Dt.30:14) IS the very word of faith Paul preaches (citing Dt. 30:14 at Rom.10:8).

 

Disobeying the very TORAH of the New Covenant in which you partake?  That makes NO SENSE.  And it's unbiblical.  So OBEY!

 

"God is going to institute the new   covenant no matter what man does or does not do. "

AND....the NEW COVENANT consists of TORAH written upon our HEARTS (Jer.31:33) so that we OBEY IT (Dt.30:14).

 

"Read  it again and note how many time God says, "I will.""

Of COURSE God will make sure that the New Covenant is fully fulfilled!

And this includes TORAH IN OUR HEARTS (Jer.31:33) so that we OBEY IT (Dt.30:14).

 

blessings...

 

 

I am not going to reply to this post until you answer my questions  about if you keeping the law perfectly all the time.

[Michael37]

2 hours ago, BibleGuy said:

Ok then....we're playing the game of "LET'S ONLY QUOTE SCRIPTURE"!  

Fun game!

Yes, fun. I hope no-one gets stung to death by sin. 

1Co 15:54-58
(54)  So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
(55)  O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
(56)  The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
(57)  But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
(58)  Therefore, my beloved brethren, be you stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as you know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

[omega2xx]

50 minutes ago, BibleGuy said:

"Do you obey all of the Torah perfectly all the Time, and when you die and Moses meets you at the pearly gate ask you why should I let you into God's perfect heaven, what will you say?"

Hi again!  Thanks for asking....

I seek to continue to grow in faithful obedience to presently observable Torah portions....

Jesus requires perfection (Mt.5:48) and says it's easy (Mt.11:30)....

PERFECTION is not SINLESSNESS.....keep that in mind.

So sure, I seem to be doing all right....as I continue to grow day-by-day.....but there's always more to learn and more to grow.....

 

"when you die and Moses meets you at the pearly gate ask you why should I let you into God's perfect heaven, what will you say?"

Obviously....the blood of Jesus purifies me from all sin (1Jn.1:7).  That's the ticket!

And what do we do on this exciting ride?  We obey Torah! (1Jn.5:3).

 

CONCLUSION: Jesus bought us the ticket....WE participate in the Torah-obedient ride!

But HE ALONE bought the ticket.

 

 

 

 

 

Answer the questions:  do you obey all of the Torah   perfectly all the time?  Will you get to  heaven based on your keeping all of the Torah perfectly all the time?

Jas 2:10 - For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles on one point, he has become guilty of all.

love, peace, joy

 

[Alive]

2 hours ago, BibleGuy said:

Ok....so....you just quoted Heb. 10:16 which proves Torah should be in our hearts....and that means it should be OBEYED (Dt. 30:14)....and sure enough, Paul applies Dt. 30:14 to you (Rom.10:8).

Agreed?

 

No--you are twisting scripture in order to confuse others and elevate yourself. You think you are so clever.

You are causing distress to good hearted members here with your nonsense.

You are trying to teach precisely what Paul battled on behalf of the Galatians.

You ought to be ashamed, but I suspect the opposite is true. Rather you are puffed up in your own estimation.