THE TORAH --- WRONG CONCLUSION

[BibleGuy]

22 hours ago, maryjayne said:

Joshua 5 New International Version (NIV)

5 Now when all the Amorite kings west of the Jordan and all the Canaanite kings along the coast heard how the Lord had dried up the Jordan before the Israelites until they[a] had crossed over, their hearts melted in fear and they no longer had the courage to face the Israelites.

Circumcision and Passover at Gilgal

2 At that time the Lord said to Joshua, “Make flint knives and circumcise the Israelites again.” 3 So Joshua made flint knives and circumcised the Israelites at Gibeath Haaraloth.

4 Now this is why he did so: All those who came out of Egypt—all the men of military age—died in the wilderness on the way after leaving Egypt. 5 All the people that came out had been circumcised, but all the people born in the wilderness during the journey from Egypt had not. 6 The Israelites had moved about in the wilderness forty years until all the men who were of military age when they left Egypt had died, since they had not obeyed the Lord. For the Lord had sworn to them that they would not see the land he had solemnly promised their ancestors to give us, a land flowing with milk and honey. 7 So he raised up their sons in their place, and these were the ones Joshua circumcised. They were still uncircumcised because they had not been circumcised on the way. 8 And after the whole nation had been circumcised, they remained where they were in camp until they were healed.

9 Then the Lord said to Joshua, “Today I have rolled away the reproach of Egypt from you.” So the place has been called Gilgal[c] to this day.

10 On the evening of the fourteenth day of the month, while camped at Gilgal on the plains of Jericho, the Israelites celebrated the Passover. 11 The day after the Passover, that very day, they ate some of the produce of the land: unleavened bread and roasted grain. 12 The manna stopped the day after[d] they ate this food from the land; there was no longer any manna for the Israelites, but that year they ate the produce of Canaan.

Hi there!

Yes, but that's a unique historical event (Jos.5), whereas the ONGOING mark of circumcision is INFANT circumcision (Lev.12:3;Ge. 17:12).

And, Jos. 5 is evidently circumcising the "sons of Israel" (Jos.5:2), not adult-male-Gentile-converts accompanying the "sons of Israel"

And, Jos. 5 is NOT the Torah of Moses.  The Torah of Moses includes Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy.  And I don't see any evidence that the Torah of Moses requires adult-male-Gentile-convert circumcision.

Thus, we see the Torah-obedient Paul requiring all Torah for Gentile believers (2Ti.3:16), yet NOT requiring adult-male-Gentile-convert circumcision (1Cor.7:19).....evidently because the Torah of Moses does not even require it.

Now do you see the Biblical reasons for my position?

blessings...

 

[BibleGuy]

10 hours ago, Michael37 said:

Ssshhh! Quietly I'll venture these passages and see if they get an 

 

Rom 2:23-29

(23)  You who make your boast in the law, do you dishonor God through breaking the law?
(24)  For "THE NAME OF GOD IS BLASPHEMED AMONG THE GENTILES BECAUSE OF YOU," as it is written.
(25)  For circumcision is indeed profitable if you keep the law; but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.
(26)  Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision?
(27)  And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law?
(28)  For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh;
(29)  but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

Rom 7:4-6

(4)  Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.
(5)  For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.
(6)  But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
 

Nice OOPS!  I love it!  I only wish it could be flashing in neon lights, with a nice sound effect too......very cool!     :-)

 

By the way, Rom. 2:27 AFFIRMS the legitimacy of Torah-obedient Gentiles.  That's all the more reason for even believing GENTILES to obey Torah!

And, those who circumcise their heart OBEY TORAH (Dt. 30:6-8).  So, the heart-circumcision of Rom. 2:29 is evidence we should obey Torah!

And, Rom. 2:29 affirms the SPIRIT who testifies we should obey Torah (Heb.10:15-16), even ALL Torah ordinances (Eze.36:27) "from now and forever" (Is.59:20-21 cited at Rom.11:26-27).

After all, the Spirit opposes the flesh (Rom.8:13), and the flesh opposes Torah (Rom.8:7), so the Spirit opposes Torah-disobedience.....so OBEY Torah in the Spirit!

 

Rom. 7:4?  Of COURSE we are dead to the law of sinful disobedience and death (given Rom.8:20).

But we are ALIVE to the law of righteous (2Ti.3:16;Dt.6:5,25) obedience (Jn.14:15;1Jn.5:3) and LIFE (Mt.4:4;Dt.8:3;30:11-15;32:47).

 

Rom. 7:4 requires that we bear FRUIT.  The FRUIT includes FAITH (Gal.5:22-23).  FAITH is of TORAH (Mt.23:23;Dt.32:20;Ps.119:30,86,138;Dt. 30:14 cited at Rom.10:8;Hab.2:4 cited at Gal.3:11).

Rom. 7:4 affirms GOD.  God requires Torah (Dt.1:3;5:27-33)....I'm thinking God should count for something!

Rom. 7:5 OPPOSES the flesh.  The Flesh oppose Torah (Rom.8:7).  So we should OPPOSE Torah-disobedience.  Thus, we should OBEY Torah!

Rom. 7:6?  Of COURSE we are delivered from the law of sinful disobedience and death (also Rom.8:2).

But we are ALIVE to the law of righteous (2Ti.3:16;Dt.6:5,25) obedience (Jn.14:15;1Jn.5:3) and LIFE (Mt.4:4;Dt.8:3;30:11-15;32:47).

After all, Paul CONTINUES to serve in the Spirit (Rom.7:6).  SERVE WHAT?  Oh that's right!  SERVE TORAH! (Rom.7:25).

 

"Oldness of the letter?"  Well, of COURSE it's bad to obey Torah without the Spirit.

So do both!  Walk in the Spirit by faith in obedience to Torah!

Do NOT try to obey Torah without faith (or without the Spirit).

 

After all, Paul says that we who do the law are justified (Rom.2:13).

Again, Paul requires ALL Torah (2Ti.3:16).

Again, Paul (Rom.7:12) says Torah is good.  So be good.  Obey Torah!

Again, Paul (Rom.7:12) says Torah is holy.  Be holy.  Obey Torah!

Again, Paul (Rom.7:12) says Torah is spiritual.  Desire and pursue what is spiritual (Rom.7:14).  So obey Torah!

So let's obey!

 

Thanks for bringing out these important passages from Paul.

 

blessings...

 

[BeauJangles]

  44 minutes ago, BibleGuy said:

I'm the BIBLE GUY.....

Sooo bro, 

Just curious. Are you Jewish, converted to Judaism, or just another Christian who wishes now to observe the tanakh because you found the regiment to observance of 613 - 1 law concerning women's mense, something you felt led to do? Even Peter had a vision from the Lord, and he no longer had to remain kosher due to his commision to the Gentiles. Was he then in violation of the tanakh? What about that? 

Acts 10:9-16 New King James Version (NKJV) Peter’s Vision 9 The next day, as they went on their journey and drew near the city, Peter went up on the housetop to pray, about [a]the sixth hour. 10 Then he became very hungry and wanted to eat; but while they made ready, he fell into a trance 11 and saw heaven opened and an object like a great sheet bound at the four corners, descending to him and let down to the earth. 12 In it were all kinds of four-footed animals of the earth, wild beasts, creeping things, and birds of the air. 13 And a voice came to him, “Rise, Peter; kill and eat.” 14 But Peter said, “Not so, Lord! For I have never eaten anything common or unclean.” 15 And a voice spoke to him again the second time, “What God has [b]cleansed you must not call common.” 16 This was done three times. And the object was taken up into heaven again.

 

[BibleGuy]

41 minutes ago, BeauJangles said:

  44 minutes ago, BibleGuy said:

I'm the BIBLE GUY.....

Sooo bro, 

Just curious. Are you Jewish, converted to Judaism, or just another Christian who wishes now to observe the tanakh because you found the regiment to observance of 613 - 1 law concerning women's mense, something you felt led to do? Even Peter had a vision from the Lord, and he no longer had to remain kosher due to his commision to the Gentiles. Was he then in violation of the tanakh? What about that? 

Acts 10:9-16 New King James Version (NKJV) Peter’s Vision 9 The next day, as they went on their journey and drew near the city, Peter went up on the housetop to pray, about [a]the sixth hour. 10 Then he became very hungry and wanted to eat; but while they made ready, he fell into a trance 11 and saw heaven opened and an object like a great sheet bound at the four corners, descending to him and let down to the earth. 12 In it were all kinds of four-footed animals of the earth, wild beasts, creeping things, and birds of the air. 13 And a voice came to him, “Rise, Peter; kill and eat.” 14 But Peter said, “Not so, Lord! For I have never eaten anything common or unclean.” 15 And a voice spoke to him again the second time, “What God has [b]cleansed you must not call common.” 16 This was done three times. And the object was taken up into heaven again.

 

Hi there!

"Just curious. Are you Jewish"

Never did a blood test....but not sure that would prove anything anyway....I mean really....does anyone REALLY have evidence that a particular individual's DNA matches back to one of Jacob's sons (i.e., Judah)?

 

"converted to Judaism"

Well....there are (and have been for thousands of years) MANY JUDAISMS.....

And, depending on definitions, you could even argue that Christianity is the only TRUE Judaism.

After all, Jesus is Jewish...the Apostles are Jewish....the Scriptures are preserved for us by Jews....sounds like Christianity is a sect of Judaism (Ac.24:14)!  The CORRECT sect.

But, I'm not sure what definitions you have in mind....

 

"just another Christian who wishes now to observe the tanakh because you found the regiment to observance of 613"

Actually, 613 is likely the wrong number.  After all, Dt. 4:15 did not even make the list of 613...

And we obey because it's required by the Father, Son, Spirit, Moses, the other prophets, Psalms, Proverbs, Gospels, Apostles, Epistles, Hebrews, even Revelation, as an expression of love, faith, goodness, holiness, righteousness, because of the Lord's great mercy and grace shown to us in His Son.

 

"1 law concerning women's mense, something you felt led to do? "

Well, I'm not female....but thanks for checking on that one....

Sure, it's good to grow in obedience to all presently observable Torah portions....

But at least SOME of the laws of " נִדָּה " require functioning Levitical priests (e.g., Lev.12:6) which we don't presently have....

So, there's only so much we can do while in diaspora....but don't worry!  We WILL again obey 100% of all Torah when we return to inherit the land promised to us (Mt.5:5;Gal.3:29;Eph.3:6;Dt.30:1-8).

 

"Even Peter had a vision from the Lord, and he no longer had to remain kosher due to his commision to the Gentiles. Was he then in violation of the tanakh? What about that? "

I'm glad you asked me about that!  This question comes up A LOT.  And it's a common mistake....I used to make the same mistake....so I understand where you're coming from...

 

Ac. 10 has Peter telling us the MEANING of the vision....it's about the DUDE....not the FOOD!

See look: "...I should not call any MAN unholy or unclean" (Ac. 10:28).

And, Peter CONTINUES to apply Lev. 11 to you (1Pe.1:16). 

So Peter CONTINUED to obey Lev. 11 and required it of others as well.

 

blessings to you!

[BeauJangles]

3 minutes ago, BibleGuy said:

So Peter CONTINUED to obey Lev. 11 and required it of others as well.

Right. Continued with Hebrew National hot dogs, and never did get the chance to enjoy any pizza in Rome that offered pepperoni and sausage, or spaghetti with meatballs. I see. Okay, thanks for your answers. God bless! 

[BibleGuy]

5 hours ago, BeauJangles said:

Right. Continued with Hebrew National hot dogs, and never did get the chance to enjoy any pizza in Rome that offered pepperoni and sausage, or spaghetti with meatballs. I see. Okay, thanks for your answers. God bless! 

" Continued with Hebrew National hot dogs "

Actually, I think they have nitrates/nitrites....so better to go with uncured organic beef hot dogs....

And avoid the celery powder curing process....because that celery can be high in carcinogenic glypohsate.

 

"pepperoni and sausage, or spaghetti with meatballs. "

Yes, need to remove the pepperoni!

But turkey sausage is fine....

And meatballs vary....some sources include pork, others exclude....so we ask to be sure.

 

blessings...

 

[Michael37]

10 hours ago, BibleGuy said:

After all, Paul says that we who do the law are justified (Rom.2:13).

Again, Paul requires ALL Torah (2Ti.3:16).

Again, Paul (Rom.7:12) says Torah is good.  So be good.  Obey Torah!

Again, Paul (Rom.7:12) says Torah is holy.  Be holy.  Obey Torah!

Again, Paul (Rom.7:12) says Torah is spiritual.  Desire and pursue what is spiritual (Rom.7:14).  So obey Torah!

So let's obey!

Thanks for bringing out these important passages from Paul.

blessings...

Personally, I have never been under the Law of Moses, didn't have to memorise the Pentateuch or observe OT rules about foods, fasts, and feasts, but rather have been exhorted virtually since day one to continue in the faith that rests on the sacrifice of Christ whose suffering on our behalf is sufficient to meet the demands of the law.  As I abide in Christ with my faith in Him as my Saviour whose all-sufficient perpetually effective sacrifice results in my being presented holy, unblameable, and unreproveable in His sight, there is no benefit in any "other" deed or creed!

Col 1:21-23
(21)  And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now has he reconciled
(22)  In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
(23)  If you continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which you have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

[BibleGuy]

On 11/26/2019 at 1:42 PM, Michael37 said:

Personally, I have never been under the Law of Moses, didn't have to memorise the Pentateuch or observe OT rules about foods, fasts, and feasts, but rather have been exhorted virtually since day one to continue in the faith that rests on the sacrifice of Christ whose suffering on our behalf is sufficient to meet the demands of the law.  As I abide in Christ with my faith in Him as my Saviour whose all-sufficient perpetually effective sacrifice results in my being presented holy, unblameable, and unreproveable in His sight, there is no benefit in any "other" deed or creed!

Col 1:21-23
(21)  And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now has he reconciled
(22)  In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
(23)  If you continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which you have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

 

"Personally, I have never been under the Law of Moses"

You are under the law of obedience (Mt.5:19;2Ti.3:16;1Jn.5:3) and life (Mt.4:4;Dt.8:3;30:11-15;32:47)....you just don't know it (yet!)

 

"didn't have to memorise the Pentateuch"

Relax....Torah does not even require that you "memorise the Pentateuch".

 

Jesus requires ALL Torah (Mt.5:19) in perfection(Mt.5:48) and He says it's easy! (Mt.11:30).

So you're ok....relax!  Just grow in faithful obedience to the instructions Jesus requires....it's easy! (Mt.11:30)

 

"or observe OT rules about foods"

Peter applies Lev. 11 to you explicitly (citing Lev. 11 at 1Pe.1:16).

Ok....no more pork for you!

But turkey bacon (turkey sausage) is pretty tasty....actually....that's ok for eating.

 

"feasts"

Paul COMMANDS feasts (e.g., 1Cor.5:7-8)....not sure why you'd ignore that.

 

" but rather have been exhorted virtually since day one to continue in the faith that rests on the sacrifice of Christ whose suffering on our behalf is sufficient to meet the demands of the law.  "

Agreed.  But that's no excuse to ignore Mt. 5:19 which Jesus applies to all disciples of all nations (given Mt.28:19-20).

 

"As I abide in Christ with my faith in Him as my Saviour whose all-sufficient perpetually effective sacrifice results in my being presented holy, unblameable, and unreproveable in His sight, there is no benefit in any "other" deed or creed!"

Here are some benefits you've overlooked:

James says we are justified by WORKS and NOT BY FAITH ALONE (Jas.2:24)....sounds like deeds ARE a huge benefit!

Paul says we who do the law are justified (Rom.2:13).

Paul (Rom.7:12) says Torah is good.  So be good (Gal.6:1) means obey Torah!

Paul (Rom.7:12) says Torah is holy.  BE HOLY (1Pe.1:16) thus means obey Torah!

Paul (Rom.7:12) says Torah is righteous.  DO RIGHTEOUSNESS (1Jn.2:29;3:7;Mt.5:20) thus means OBEY TORAH!

Paul (Rom.7:14) says Torah is spiritual.  Desire and pursue what is spiritual (1Cor.14:1).   So OBEY Torah!

Torah is useful for CORRECTING others (2Ti.3:16).

Torah is useful for REBUKING others (2Ti.3:16).

Torah is useful for TRAINING others (2Ti.3:16) in RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Torah is useful for TEACHING others (2Ti.3:16).

Torah defines sin (Rom.3:20;7:7;1Jn.3:4).  STOP SINNING (1Cor.15:34) thus means OBEY TORAH.

Christ's blood was shed to inaugurate the New Covenant (Lk.22:20) which is given as TORAH (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10;10:16).  Why you disobey the very Torah of the New Covenant which Christ came to inaugurate in His very blood?

Torah-obedience assures LIFE (Mt.4:4).

Torah-obedience is sufficient for ETERNAL LIFE (Lk.10:25-28).

Torah-obedience insures GREATNESS (Mt.5:19).

Torah-obedience insures ENTRY into the forthcoming Kingdom (Mt.5:20).

Torah-obedience insures you will NOT be cast away from Christ (Mt.7:21-23).

Torah-obedience insures you will NOT suffer the judgment of fire (Mt.13:41-42).

Torah-obedience assures PEACE (Ps.119:165), and we should bear the fruit of PEACE (Gal.5:22-23).

Torah-obedience is an expression of our LOVE (Jn.14:15;Mt.5:19;1Jn.5:3;Dt.6:5,25), and we should bear the fruit of LOVE (Gal.5:22-23).

Torah-obedience is an expression of our FAITH, because TORAH is of FAITH (Mt.23:23;Dt.32:20;Dt.30:14 cited at Rom.10:8;Hab.2:4 cited at Gal.3:11;Ps.119:30,86,138).

Torah-obedience is obedience to GOD (Dt.1:3;5:27-33)....I'm thinking God should count for something.

Torah-obedience is OPPOSED to the flesh (Rom.8:7), and it's GOOD to be opposed to the flesh (Rom.8:13).

Torah-obedience is how Paul serves (Rom.7:25); you should imitate Paul (1Cor.11:1;Php.4:9).

Torah-obedience is what the SPIRIT testifies we should do (Heb.10:15-16), even in obedience to all Torah ordinances (Eze.36:27) "from now and forever" (citing Is.59:20-21 at Rom.11:26-27).

Torah-obedience brings great blessing (Dt.30:11-15).

Torah-obedience is what Jesus did....and we should imitate Jesus (1Jn.2:6;Lk.6:40).

Torah-obedience is what Paul did (Ac.21)...and we should imitate Paul (1Cor.11:1;Php.4:9).

Torah-obedience is what Apostle Stephen requires (Ac.6:10-15)....and we should obey the Apostolic Torah-teachings (Mt.23:34).

Torah-DISobedience is what the antiChrist wants (2Th.2:3)....let's not work for the wrong team!  Let's OBEY Torah!

And on and on and on....

Do we agree these are all great benefits?

 

"Col 1:21-23
(21)  And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now has he reconciled
(22)  In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
(23)  If you continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which you have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;"

 

Col. 1:23 is PAUL affirming FAITH....and FAITH (for Paul) is TORAH-OBEDIENT faith (Dt. 30:14 cited as the substance of the faith in Rom.10:8;Gal. 3:11 citing Hab.2:4).

After all, FAITH is of TORAH (Mt.23:23;Dt. 32:20;Ps.119:30,86,138)....so the idea of FAITH without FAITHFUL TORAH-OBEDIENCE is foreign to Scripture.

Even Abraham had FAITH (Ge.15:6) and LAW-OBEDIENCE (Ge.26:5).  TOGETHER.

BOTH. 

TOGETHER.

 

Just like Paul said we are justified by LAW (Rom.2:13) and FAITH (Rom.5:1)....BOTH. TOGETHER.

Not law alone (Gal.5:4-5).

Not faith alone (says James 2:24).

But BOTH.

TOGETHER.

 

Anyway, I'm glad you brought out this important passage in Colossians....it encourages us to obey the Torah-obedient Gospel of faith preached by Paul.

 

blessings...

 

[Michael37]

17 minutes ago, BibleGuy said:

 

"Personally, I have never been under the Law of Moses"

You are under the law of obedience (Mt.5:19;2Ti.3:16;1Jn.5:3) and life (Mt.4:4;Dt.8:3;30:11-15;32:47)....you just don't know it (yet!)

 

"didn't have to memorise the Pentateuch"

Relax....Torah does not even require that you "memorise the Pentateuch".

 

Jesus requires ALL Torah (Mt.5:19) in perfection(Mt.5:48) and He says it's easy! (Mt.11:30).

So you're ok....relax!  Just grow in faithful obedience to the instructions Jesus requires....it's easy! (Mt.11:30)

 

"or observe OT rules about foods"

Peter applies Lev. 11 to you explicitly (citing Lev. 11 at 1Pe.1:16).

Ok....no more pork for you!

But turkey bacon (turkey sausage) is pretty tasty....actually....that's ok for eating.

 

"feasts"

Paul COMMANDS feasts (e.g., 1Cor.5:7-8)....not sure why you'd ignore that.

 

" but rather have been exhorted virtually since day one to continue in the faith that rests on the sacrifice of Christ whose suffering on our behalf is sufficient to meet the demands of the law.  "

Agreed.  But that's no excuse to ignore Mt. 5:19 which Jesus applies to all disciples of all nations (given Mt.28:19-20).

 

"As I abide in Christ with my faith in Him as my Saviour whose all-sufficient perpetually effective sacrifice results in my being presented holy, unblameable, and unreproveable in His sight, there is no benefit in any "other" deed or creed!"

Here are some benefits you've overlooked:

James says we are justified by WORKS and NOT BY FAITH ALONE (Jas.2:24)....sounds like deeds ARE a huge benefit!

Paul says we who do the law are justified (Rom.2:13).

Paul (Rom.7:12) says Torah is good.  So be good (Gal.6:1) means obey Torah!

Paul (Rom.7:12) says Torah is holy.  BE HOLY (1Pe.1:16) thus means obey Torah!

Paul (Rom.7:12) says Torah is righteous.  DO RIGHTEOUSNESS (1Jn.2:29;3:7;Mt.5:20) thus means OBEY TORAH!

Paul (Rom.7:14) says Torah is spiritual.  Desire and pursue what is spiritual (1Cor.14:1).   So OBEY Torah!

Torah is useful for CORRECTING others (2Ti.3:16).

Torah is useful for REBUKING others (2Ti.3:16).

Torah is useful for TRAINING others (2Ti.3:16) in RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Torah is useful for TEACHING others (2Ti.3:16).

Torah defines sin (Rom.3:20;7:7;1Jn.3:4).  STOP SINNING (1Cor.15:34) thus means OBEY TORAH.

Christ's blood was shed to inaugurate the New Covenant (Lk.22:20) which is given as TORAH (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10;10:16).  Why you disobey the very Torah of the New Covenant which Christ came to inaugurate in His very blood?

Torah-obedience assures LIFE (Mt.4:4).

Torah-obedience is sufficient for ETERNAL LIFE (Lk.10:25-28).

Torah-obedience insures GREATNESS (Mt.5:19).

Torah-obedience insures ENTRY into the forthcoming Kingdom (Mt.5:20).

Torah-obedience insures you will NOT be cast away from Christ (Mt.7:21-23).

Torah-obedience insures you will NOT suffer the judgment of fire (Mt.13:41-42).

Torah-obedience assures PEACE (Ps.119:165), and we should bear the fruit of PEACE (Gal.5:22-23).

Torah-obedience is an expression of our LOVE (Jn.14:15;Mt.5:19;1Jn.5:3;Dt.6:5,25), and we should bear the fruit of LOVE (Gal.5:22-23).

Torah-obedience is an expression of our FAITH, because TORAH is of FAITH (Mt.23:23;Dt.32:20;Dt.30:14 cited at Rom.10:8;Hab.2:4 cited at Gal.3:11;Ps.119:30,86,138).

Torah-obedience is obedience to GOD (Dt.1:3;5:27-33)....I'm thinking God should count for something.

Torah-obedience is OPPOSED to the flesh (Rom.8:7), and it's GOOD to be opposed to the flesh (Rom.8:13).

Torah-obedience is how Paul serves (Rom.7:25); you should imitate Paul (1Cor.11:1;Php.4:9).

Torah-obedience is what the SPIRIT testifies we should do (Heb.10:15-16), even in obedience to all Torah ordinances (Eze.36:27) "from now and forever" (citing Is.59:20-21 at Rom.11:26-27).

Torah-obedience brings great blessing (Dt.30:11-15).

Torah-obedience is what Jesus did....and we should imitate Jesus (1Jn.2:6;Lk.6:40).

Torah-obedience is what Paul did (Ac.21)...and we should imitate Paul (1Cor.11:1;Php.4:9).

Torah-obedience is what Apostle Stephen requires (Ac.6:10-15)....and we should obey the Apostolic Torah-teachings (Mt.23:34).

Torah-DISobedience is what the antiChrist wants (2Th.2:3)....let's not work for the wrong team!  Let's OBEY Torah!

And on and on and on....

Do we agree these are all great benefits?

 

"Col 1:21-23
(21)  And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now has he reconciled
(22)  In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
(23)  If you continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which you have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;"

 

Col. 1:23 is PAUL affirming FAITH....and FAITH (for Paul) is TORAH-OBEDIENT faith (Dt. 30:14 cited as the substance of the faith in Rom.10:8;Gal. 3:11 citing Hab.2:4).

After all, FAITH is of TORAH (Mt.23:23;Dt. 32:20;Ps.119:30,86,138)....so the idea of FAITH without FAITHFUL TORAH-OBEDIENCE is foreign to Scripture.

Even Abraham had FAITH (Ge.15:6) and LAW-OBEDIENCE (Ge.26:5).  TOGETHER.

BOTH. 

TOGETHER.

 

Just like Paul said we are justified by LAW (Rom.2:13) and FAITH (Rom.5:1)....BOTH. TOGETHER.

Not law alone (Gal.5:4-5).

Not faith alone (says James 2:24).

But BOTH.

TOGETHER.

 

Anyway, I'm glad you brought out this important passage in Colossians....it encourages us to obey the Torah-obedient Gospel of faith preached by Paul.

 

blessings...

 

Faith in Christ for salvation is not of works lest anyone should boast, you should know that, BibleGuy. It's a basic tenet of the Gospel.

Eph 2:8-10
(8)  For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
(9)  Not of works, lest any man should boast.
(10)  For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them.
 

Works as the fruit of faith through which grace is given are proof that faith is alive, not to be confused with observance of the Law of Moses. 

[BibleGuy]

23 minutes ago, Michael37 said:

Faith in Christ for salvation is not of works lest anyone should boast, you should know that, BibleGuy. It's a basic tenet of the Gospel.

Eph 2:8-10
(8)  For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
(9)  Not of works, lest any man should boast.
(10)  For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them.
 

Works as the fruit of faith through which grace is given are proof that faith is alive, not to be confused with observance of the Law of Moses. 

 

"Faith in Christ for salvation is not of works lest anyone should boast, you should know that, BibleGuy. It's a basic tenet of the Gospel."

Of COURSE we oppose works without faith!  AGREED!

Paul opposes works without faith (Gal.5:4-5).

James opposes faith without works (Jas.2:24).

So we do BOTH. TOGETHER.

FAITH and WORKS together.

We are justified by LAW (Rom.2:13) and FAITH (Rom.5:1).

TOGETHER.

BOTH.

TOGETHER.

 

Moreoever, GRACE extends to the HUMBLE(Jas.4:6), and HUMBLE people obey TORAH (Nu.12:3;Ps.25:9;Zep.2:3;Ex.33:13).

FAITH (for Paul) is TORAH-OBEDIENT faith (citing Dt. 30:14 at Rom.10:8; citing Hab. 2:4 at Gal.3:11).

 

After all, FAITH is of TORAH (Mt.23:23;Dt.32:20;Ps.119:30,86,138).  Jesus was not joking (Mt.23:23).

 

Eph.2:10 affirms CHRIST and GOOD WORKS....what kind of works?  TORAH-OBEDIENT WORKS REQUIRED BY THAT VERY CHRIST (Mt.5:19-20).

 

Eph.2:10 affirms GOD.  God requires Torah (Dt. 1:3;5:27-33;etc.)  Let's obey God!

After all, God gives the Spirit to those who OBEY GOD (Ac.5:32)...and God requires Torah (Dt.1:3;5:27-33;etc.)  So OBEY!

 

"Works as the fruit of faith through which grace is given are proof that faith is alive, not to be confused with observance of the Law of Moses. "

Don't be silly!  Either your WORKS are in OBEDIENCE or DISOBEDIENCE to that Law of Moses.

What does JESUS SAY about Torah-disobedience?

(Hint: Mt.5:19-20;7:21-23;13:41-42).....Are you SURE you want that?

Of course you don't!

So do works of TORAH-OBEDIENCE, as required by Jesus (Mt.5:19-20) and Paul (2Ti.3:16) and John (1Jn.5:3) and Stephen (Ac.6:10-15) and Peter (applying Lev. 11 to you explicitly, 1Pe.1:16).

 

After all, the New Covenant is inaugurated by Christ's blood (Lk.22:20), and the New Covenant is given as the TORAH OF MOSES (Jer.31:33).

Why would you disobey the very Torah of the New Covenant which Christ labored to inaugurate, for you, with His very blood?

 

blessings...