The Preamble

[Dennis1209]

1 hour ago, Sonshine said:

Consider… 

2 Peter 3:5-7

⁵ For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

⁶ Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

⁷ But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

 

You're very knowledgeable Sonshine, our Bible is inerrant and infallible; the Holy Spirit in His precise words and the translators conveyed the exact meanings of the message; the wording is not random or careless. Hebrew and Greek words are much more precise and descriptive than the English language. Every Hebrew word study I have agree the following two words are not synonymous or interchangeable; created [H. bârâ, L. Ex nihilo, spoken into existence, out of nothing] and made [ʻâsâh, to make, as in material mold, made from something already in existence, fashioned, i.e. bodies of Adam & Eve]. 

The same scholars that accurately describe the Hebrew word meanings, use Exodus 20:11 as an example to prove their point of no gaps, and that all that exists were created in the six days. 

Exodus 20:11 (KJV) For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. [emphasis added] There we go again with the word ʻâsâh [fashioned or reworked] again. 

Most scholars throughout history except for modern times; agree that 2 Peter 3: 5-7 is referring to Genesis 1: 2 and not Noah's flood. To me it's readily apparent there were two global floods. Genesis 1: 1-2 is a preamble to what was already in existence before the six day creation account. The Holy Spirit was precise in His wording. During this six day period we see what God refashioned, and what God [Ex nihilo] spoke into existence. I.E.

Genesis 1:21 (KJV) And God created [bârâʼ - Ex nihilo] great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

It's apparent you've really studied this subject in detail. If you don't mind me asking; how long have you studied it and what reference materials are you using? 

I previously always thought everything that is, was created in the six day creation week. I bought some books, one of them titled, "Earth's Earliest Ages" by G.H. Pember and read it. Along with the commentaries from some of my study Bibles, such as Scofield and his views on the six day refashioning week. I thought I would study for myself and check out the alternate view point for myself. Also purchased and used Hebrew / Greek word studies and lexicons from the likes of Strong's, Zodhiates and other source material. They all concurred with the meanings of the specific Hebrew & Greek words  I was interested in that are critical for context. The more I studied on what is recorded in Genesis, Peter, Job, etc., the more I'm swayed by the plain meaning of scripture, that there is indeed a gap of undetermined time between Genesis 1:2 and Genesis 1:3. 

Fortunately iIt's a hermeneutic doctrinal issue we can agree to disagree on civilly. 

Well, time to get ready for Sunday School and Church now. Your eyeballs will appreciate the rest from the above diatribe I'm sure.

[BeauJangles]

15 hours ago, johnthebaptist said:

Only God knows the answer to your question, perhaps, but I don't see where the Bible reports that anything at all was created before the first day.

Surely our Lord was the 'beginning'. He was/is so tremendously wonderful, and created heavenly beings which includes the realm which He is in. They were made for worship and adoration, but He longed for the willingness of mankind. That was the sole purpose of why we are here. The greatest thing The Apostle Paul said, is love. This is what God truly is. 

[johnthebaptist]

19 minutes ago, BeauJangles said:

Surely our Lord was the 'beginning'. He was/is so tremendously wonderful, and created heavenly beings which includes the realm which He is in. They were made for worship and adoration, but He longed for the willingness of mankind. That was the sole purpose of why we are here. The greatest thing The Apostle Paul said, is love. This is what God truly is. 

It would seem to me that what motivates the Lord is his love for us.

[OldCoot]

But what constitutes a "day", "hour", etc depends on the location of the observer.  Time is a physical dimension that changes with acceleration, gravity, velocity, etc.   We tend to think that time is linear and absolute.  

Time in a weaker gravitational force runs faster.   We can measure that if we have an atomic clock.  If we raise the atomic clock 100 meters above the surface of the earth, the frequency will decrease from 10^16th to 10^14th.   In terms of velocity, If an astronaut is sent to the nearest star, Alpha Centauri 4.5 light years away,  at half the speed of light, when he returns, he will be 2 years younger than his brother.

Is Yahweh subject to Gravity? Hardly.  He is not. He is outside the domain of time altogether.  And that is how he authenticates His message to us, the scripture, by writing history in advance.    

There is far more to what is going on than we in our 4 dimensional physical existence realize.  While it is indeed true that the Lord created in 6 days as measured form His perspective, that doesn't mean that it was what we understand as a 24 hr day from our perspective.  Just as has been determined by modern physics that there are actually 10 dimensions to the known universe, the Rabbi Nachmanides in the 1200's determined just from the structure of Genesis 1 that there are 10 dimensions to the created universe.

And the wording of the text suggests that more went on than a casual reading supposes.  The "let there be light" of day one of V3 followed the earth "became without form and void" in V2.  For something to become void, by default it must have initially not been void.   Just like for something to become dead it, by default, had to have been living.  Within the text it still appears like the 6 days creation as outlined from Genesis 1:3 onward was a creation reboot as a response to something that happened to make the earth "became without form and void" in Genesis 1:2 which followed the "in the beginning" of V1.  And there is no way to ascertain the time involved between "in the beginning" and "the earth became without form an void".  

There is no real conflict.  The earth as we know it was created in 6 days. 

 

Edited November 24, 2019 by OldCoot

[JustPassingThru]

18 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

You can't start at "in the beginning" as the first day of the creation account. 

You are right brother, the Hebrew text reads, beginning bara God, ...the Greek text reads, ...in beginning created THE God, ...so we must start at the "beginning," the only thing that "existed" Exo 3:14, was/is God, ...so that means there wasn't a large space of "nothing" existing, already in place, to create in, ...that leads us to the logical conclusion that everything God created, spoke into existence is, "inside" of Him...

God has always "existed" without any beginning, ...that is mind blowing to our "finite" minds, ...if we try to comprehend this Truth we come to a "vanishing point" where it becomes mind blowing, the first "beginning" recorded for us in Genesis 1:1 is when He started to create bara, to bring into physical form what He was thinking in his Mind, ...the second "beginning" recorded for us is John 1:1 and that is telling us the Word "existed" way, way beyond, farther back than the "vanishing point" we have in our minds. 

Lord bless

[JustPassingThru]

15 hours ago, OldCoot said:

That instead of "the earth was without form and void", the literal of the Hebrew is "the earth became without form and void". Haya Tohu va Bohu.

Correct!

For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God Himself that formed the earth and made it; He hath established it, He created it not in vain, He formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.  Isa 45:18

He created bârâ' it not in vain tôhû,

He formed it to be inhabited yâshab,...to be inhabited,

...not covered with water:

And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep (tehôm - sea). And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. Gen 1:2

[JustPassingThru]

10 hours ago, OldCoot said:

That would impune the character of the Lord by implying He does not create perfectly. 

Exactly!!!

Since God foreknows everything about His Creation, each and every time consuming moment of time Matt 10:29, then He knew before Adam rebelled that he would rebel, ...which means He knew before He started "to" created, as far back in "Eternity" past as our minds can takes us, ... there was a Lamb already slain in Heaven with Him Rev 13:8

To suggest He didn't "know" Adam would rebel and He had to come up with an "alternative" plan says God is NOT omniscient!

[Alive]

Some folks think that Jeremiah is a hint the Lord placed regarding an entire previous civilization existed before this one.

 

Jer. 4:23    I looked on the earth, and behold, it was ^1a formless and void;

And to the heavens, and they had no light.

²⁴  I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were ^aquaking,

And all the hills ¹moved to and fro.

²⁵  I looked, and behold, there was no man,

And all the ^abirds of the heavens had fled.

²⁶  I looked, and behold, ¹the ^afruitful land was a wilderness,

And all its cities were pulled down

Before the LORD, before His fierce anger.

[JustPassingThru]

22 minutes ago, Alive said:

Some folks think that Jeremiah is a hint the Lord placed regarding an entire previous civilization existed before this one.

Yes brother, I believe so too...

If I remember correctly, ...Barnhouse said between Gen 1:1  and 1:2, the angelic host also lived on the earth and Lucifer's "sanctuary was there and he carried their "praise" to Heaven to present them before God, then after "iniquity" was found in him and he stared to "charge" them and declared his five "I wills,"...then God cursed the earth and covered it with water, "...you 'will' be like the Most High? ...then dry this place up!"

And then we know the rest of the story, ...speculation, true, but good logical reasoning, ...I'm not going to argue of debate this with anyone, so don't hijack this thread, ...I can wait till I'm with my Lord to know what actually happened, ...and I personally believe that will be very soon, ...maybe even today... 

[BeauJangles]

3 hours ago, johnthebaptist said:

It would seem to me that what motivates the Lord is his love for us.

Amen, bro. That's what it's all about.