GALATIANS 1:8 WHO IS ACCURSED ?

[BibleGuy]

3 hours ago, Behold said:

NO, he does not preach that verse.  He is explaining that the deceived, religious, heretics, who preach it.......like you.......are "cursed".

He's talking about anyone who is trying to substitute works and commandment keeping and obedience, in place of GRACE.

That is YOU, and a few others on this Forum & Thread.

He says you are all "fallen from Grace", because you do not accept that "faith is accepted as/for righteousness" by GOD, and you do not believe that "justification by Faith" is TRUE.  You do not believe that Salvation is a "Gift"...  So that is why you and a few just like you are here ranting about your religion of works in place of the Grace of God, which is the Gospel that Paul teaches and preaches.

Do you want to know what an enemy of the Cross is?....Is what you and a few others are teaching.

That's what you've become, while thinking that your self righteous theology is the gospel.

Thats how confused and deceived you have become....... You are now preaching against the CROSS, thinking you are led of the Holy Spirit.

Fair warning to the group thats doing this.....

 

"NO, he does not preach that verse.  "

Sure he does!  Galatians is written by Paul....so OF COURSE Paul wrote Gal. 1:8.

 

"He is explaining that the deceived, religious, heretics, who preach it.......like you.......are "cursed"."

No.  Paul opposes LAW WITHOUT FAITH (Gal.3:10-11;5:4-5).  Paul REQUIRES LAW + FAITH (Rom.2:13+Rom.5:1).

Paul requires ALL Torah (2Ti.3:16).  

Paul SERVES Torah (Rom.7:25).

Paul says Torah-obedience is the word of faith he preaches (citing Dt. 30:14 at Rom.10:8).

Paul upholds the New Covenant (1Cor.11) which is given as Torah (Jer.31:33).

Paul says STOP SINNING (1Cor.15:34), which means OBEY TORAH (given Rom.3:20;7:7).

HERESY is opposition to TORAH (given 2Pe.2:1 + Dt. 13:1-5).  So STOP your heresy!  OBEY Torah.

 

"He's talking about anyone who is trying to substitute works and commandment keeping and obedience, in place of GRACE."

WRONG.  We are justified by GRACE (Rom.3:24) AND WORKS (Jas.2:24).  James did not lie.

 

"That is YOU, and a few others on this Forum & Thread."

James did not lie.  You are justified by WORK AND NOT FAITH ALONE (Jas.2:24).

 

"He says you are all "fallen from Grace""

Nonsense.  "Fallen from grace" refers to those who seek justification by LAW WITHOUT FAITH (Gal.5:4-5).

Thus Paul requires justification by LAW AND FAITH (Rom.2:13 + Rom.5:1), TOGETHER.

 

" because you do not accept that "faith is accepted as/for righteousness" by GOD"

Faith is accepted as righteousness BECAUSE those with faith OBEY TORAH (Ge. 15:6 + Ge.26:5).

 

"by GOD"

You mean the GOD who requires that you obey Torah? (Dt.1:3;5:27-33)....ok.....

 

" you do not believe that "justification by Faith" is TRUE. "

Sure I do!  Rom.5:1.  I'm the BIBLE GUY....so ALL SCRIPTURE IS TRUE!

 

" You do not believe that Salvation is a "Gift"...  "

Sure I do!  Ps.18:35;Eph.2:8-9.  I'm the BIBLE GUY...so ALL SCRIPTURE IS TRUE!

 

"So that is why you and a few just like you are here ranting about your religion of works in place of the Grace of God"

Uhh.....that's not my view at all...perhaps you should ask me, so that you can learn.

I never argued for "religion of works in place of the Grace of God".

Remember?  I'm the BIBLE GUY....so we are saved by grace through faith (Eph.2:8-9)....ALL Scripture is true.

 

"Do you want to know what an enemy of the Cross is?....Is what you and a few others are teaching."

Thanks for your concern....but I see you've not understood my position.

Let's talk more about it.

ONLY the blood takes away our sins (1Jn.1:7)....NOT our works without faith.

See?  I UPHOLD the cross.

 

"That's what you've become, while thinking that your self righteous theology is the gospel."

My theology is not "self righteous".

You still don't understand my position.

Sure, righteousness is something we DO (1Jn.2:29;3:7)....but it's not "self-righteousness"....rather, it's righteousness in CHRIST in which we walk by FAITH with WORKS (because faith without works is DEAD....Jas.2).

 

"Thats how confused and deceived you have become....... You are now preaching against the CROSS, thinking you are led of the Holy Spirit."

Thanks for your concern!

But I UPHOLD the cross (1Cor.1:18).

I UPHOLD the Spirit who testifies we obey Torah (Heb.10:15-16).

I UPHOLD the Spirit who leads us to obey Torah "from now and forever" (citing Is.59:20-21 at Rom.11:26-27).

I UPHOLD the Spirit who opposes Torah-disobedience (Rom.8:13 + Rom.8:7); so OBEY Torah in the Spirit!

I UPHOLD the Spirit of GOD who commands Torah (Dt.1:3;5:27-33).

I UPHOLD the Spirit of CHRIST who commands Torah (Mt.5:19).

I UPHOLD the fruit of the SPIRIT which includes LOVE (Gal.5:22-23) which requires TORAH (Jn.14:15+Mt.5:19;1Jn.5:3;Dt.6:5,25).

I UPHOLD the fruit of the SPIRIT which includes JOY (Gal.5:22-23) which is in TORAH (Ps.119:162).

I UPHOLD the fruit of the SPIRIT which includes PEACE (Gal.5:22-23) which is in TORAH (Ps.119:165).

I UPHOLD the fruit of the SPIRIT which includes GOODNESS (Gal.5:22-23) which is TORAH (Rom.7:12).

I UPHOLD the fruit of the SPIRIT which includes FAITHFULNESS (Gal.5:22-23) which is of TORAH (Mt.23:23;Dt.32:20;Ps.119:30,86,138).

 

So, I think you've not addressed these Biblical supports for my position.

 

"Fair warning to the group thats doing this....."

I appreciate your concern.

But please note:  Your message did not even cite a SINGLE verse from the Bible....it's just opinion.

Let's get back to the Bible.

Thanks!

blessings.....

 

[BibleGuy]

37 minutes ago, Resurrection Priest said:

No.

My thinking is that Israel (which included the "mixed multitude" - of Gentile "converts"), were under the LORD's testing during those 40 years.  There were not "in Covenant" because they had rebelled against the LORD and His appointed prophet/leader/shepherd - a TYPE of our rebellion against God the Father and His Son (the prophet like Moses/the shepherd).  The LORD was "testing" them "the know their hearts" toward Him. 

If the males of the "mixed multitude" were not circumcised, what happened to "There shall be one law, for the stranger as well as for the native" ?   

It is my understanding that Caleb was a Kenizzite - a great grandson of Esau.  He was would have been one of the mixed multitude, assimilated into the tribe of Judah.  Joshua was of the tribe of Ephraim.  There were three men of faith, who came out of Egypt (who were were over 20 at the first approach to the border)  who and finally crossed over Jordan into the promised land (because of their great faith).     The three together represent the kingdom of Yeshua.  Aaron's son Eleazar (Jesus our High Priest - who replaced the original priest Aaron), Joshua (DNA Hebrews) and Caleb (grafted in "aliens"). 

 

" There were not "in Covenant" because they had rebelled against the LORD and His appointed prophet/leader/shepherd"

On the other hand, Moses and Joshua and Caleb, for example, were good guys....and so I don't think we can say that ALL the Israelites were in rebellion during the wilderness wanderings....

But yes, maybe they did not really (or fully) "enter into covenant" until Dt. 29:12....thus explaining the widespread circumcision shortly thereafter, in Jos.5.

 

"If the males of the "mixed multitude" were not circumcised, what happened to "There shall be one law, for the stranger as well as for the native" ?   "

First, the ongoing mark of circumcision is INFANT circumcision.....so yes, believing Gentiles included (by faith) in Israel should circumcise their sons on the 8th day.....

BUT, the MIXED MULTITUDE and the SONS OF ISRAEL are evidently DISTINCT at the time of Ex.12:37-38.  And we are only told that that SONS OF ISRAEL (not the "mixed multitude") were circumcised in Jos.5.

Again, this confirms that Torah does not require adult-male-Gentile-convert circumcision....but only for those adults who KNOW they are of the physical seed of Abraham (given Ge.17:14).

 

So, the possibly well-intentioned (but misguided) Pharisees of Ac. 15 evidently confused the circumcision law for ADULT PHYSICAL SEED OF ABRAHAM (Ge.17:14) with the law for ADULT MALE GENTILE CONVERTS....

It's evidently required for ALL physical seed of Abraham....but NOT for adult male Gentile converts.

 

And, the "one law for stranger and native" passages (e.g., Nu.15:16,29-31) are contextually specified, and NOT applicable to ALL ALIENS (given Dt.14:21).

 

blessings...

 

 

[BibleGuy]

2 hours ago, Resurrection Priest said:

No.

My thinking is that Israel (which included the "mixed multitude" - of Gentile "converts"), were under the LORD's testing during those 40 years.  There were not "in Covenant" because they had rebelled against the LORD and His appointed prophet/leader/shepherd - a TYPE of our rebellion against God the Father and His Son (the prophet like Moses/the shepherd).  The LORD was "testing" them "the know their hearts" toward Him. 

If the males of the "mixed multitude" were not circumcised, what happened to "There shall be one law, for the stranger as well as for the native" ?   

It is my understanding that Caleb was a Kenizzite - a great grandson of Esau.  He was would have been one of the mixed multitude, assimilated into the tribe of Judah.  Joshua was of the tribe of Ephraim.  There were three men of faith, who came out of Egypt (who were were over 20 at the first approach to the border)  who and finally crossed over Jordan into the promised land (because of their great faith).     The three together represent the kingdom of Yeshua.  Aaron's son Eleazar (Jesus our High Priest - who replaced the original priest Aaron), Joshua (DNA Hebrews) and Caleb (grafted in "aliens"). 

"No."

Actually, YES.  I just found it.  Pesach WAS celebrated in the wilderness (Nu.9:1-5).....but they were NOT practicing circumcision at that time (Jos.5:5)....so that's strange.....not sure what to make of that.

Now, was Pesach ONLY celebrated in the wilderness just this one time in Nu.9:1-5? 

Or was it celebrated EVERY of the 40 years in the wilderness?

 

 

Edited December 18, 2019 by BibleGuy
typo

[BibleGuy]

18 hours ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:

When you stand before Jesus and you are  giving an account of yourself as to why He should allow you to enter His Kingdom , will you be like me and say... “I did absolutely NOTHING  that justifies me spending Eternity with You in Heaven.... “ EXCEPT” for the ONE thing that I “DID” do!    I BELIEVED in Your Gospel Of Grace- Plus NOTHING......the Proof That I Believed it and it ONLY in order to be Saved is in the fact that You know my Heart—- You know that I RESTED in that Gospel....

The vast majority of those that will stand before Christ will be scrambling for ways to come up with the things that THEY did to deserve justification . Jesus talked about them..... “ I” did this and “ I” did that, they will be wailing.....I wonder what they will be specifically offering up on that Day?  “ Yes, Jesus, I acknowledge that your Shed Blood was a “ MUST” ! Absolutely !Everybody knows THAT! .....BUT .....even though it was a “ must”.......I added a thing or two that “ I” had to do to get the job done—Your Blood  was “essential”, it just wasn’t  totally “ effective”. ( Now, feel free at this point to inject all of those DEAD WORKS that you felt compelled to add to the Gospel to SAVE and KEEP YOU SAVED  )  “ I went to  Church every Sunday” ...... “ I tithed”...... “ I kept the Ten Commandments”....... “ I lived by the Sermon on the Mound”....... “I did the best that I could”...... “ I repented of all of my sins -especially those Willful Ones- before I died”..... “ I OBEYED THE GOSPEL as best I could, even though Paul declared that it was WEAK and USELESS as far as Salvation was concerned because it had NO POWER TO SAVE.....”

These Multitudes that went beyond and essentially ADDED to the Gospel Of Grace only , who ADDED to NOTHING BUT THE BLOOD for Salvation - a GIFT-are  the ones that will hear... “ DEPART FROM ME , FOR I NEVER KNEW YOU!” I think these Deceived Souls That “Trample on the Blood Of Christ” by  “ treating  it as something ordinary” , that must be improved upon — I think that these are the ones that will be cast out by Jesus. Call me “ crazy”, but I think that Jesus wants “ALL” the Glory due Him.He sees no reason to share any credit for one’s Salvation.That is because there is none . Those that try to justify themselves by anything that “ they” did  to merit Salvation, other than simply BELIEVE are going to be in for a long Day— perhaps a very HOT day! Be safe on Judgement Day....why put yourself in Jeopardy ?   REST IN THE GOSPEL of GRACE ! 1Cor15:1-4

 

 

 

 

"Your Blood  was “essential”, it just wasn’t  totally “ effective”."

I appreciate your concern...but that's not my position.

It's like a TICKET to heaven:  The cost is $1 Trillion Dollars!  

We only have $20 in our pockets.

So, Jesus BUYS the ticket for us, with His blood.....Thank the Lord!  We could NEVER buy it ourselves!

BUT!

Jesus also asks us to spend what we have on others, PROVING our love for Him (Jn.14:15+Mt.5:19).

So it's both!

JESUS ALONE bought our ticket.....AND, we spend what we have in loving service to God and others....

 

We don't spend our $20 to pay the price for our sins....because $20 is NOT enough!

We don't spend our $20 because the Blood "wasn't totally effective".....rather, we spend it in loving service to God and others....

We don't spend our $20 because we have DEAD WORKS that we ADD to the Gospel....rather, we spend it in loving service to God and others....

If we don't spend our $20, then it proves we don't have loving service to God or others....and that's BAD.  So be GOOD!  SPEND your $20!

 

 

 

"KEEP YOU SAVED"

PAUL said your are saved IF you spend your $20....that is, IF YOU HOLD FAST TO THE WORD HE PREACHED (1Cor.15:1-3), which is TORAH-OBEDIENCE (Dt.30:14 cited at Rom.10:8).

Paul did NOT say the ticket costs $20, but Paul STILL requires that you spend it.

Jesus said you are His disciple IF you spend your $20....that is, IF you continue (Jn.8:31) in His word (which includes TORAH, Mt.5:19).  

Jesus did NOT say the ticket costs $20, but Jesus STILL requires that you spend it.

 

"“ I went to  Church every Sunday”"

NOT required by Torah.

 

" “ I tithed”"

NOT possible in diaspora.

 

"“ I kept the Ten Commandments”"

REQUIRED by Jesus (Mt.5:19).  So obey!  PAY your $20....because HE already paid the TRILLION dollars for you!  That's the least you can do....prove you love Him.  OBEY.

 

"“ I lived by the Sermon on the Mound”"

Jesus REQUIRES that ALL DISCIPLES obey this sermon (Mt.5:19+Mt.28:19-20)....so OBEY it!

 

" “I did the best that I could”."

GOOD!  Paul requires that you run the race to WIN.  Good job! 1Cor.9:24.

WALK IN WORKS (Eph.2:10).

Be JUSTIFIED by works (Jas.2:24).

 

" I repented of all of my sins -especially those Willful Ones- before I died”..."

GOOD!  Otherwise you will PERISH (Lk.13:3).

 

"“ I OBEYED THE GOSPEL as best I could"

GOOD!  Paul REQUIRES that you OBEY the gospel (2Th.1:7-8), or else you suffer the punishment of FIRE.

 

"Paul declared that it was WEAK and USELESS as far as Salvation was concerned because it had NO POWER TO SAVE.....”"

Again wrong.  We are SAVED by the Gospel (Cor.15:1-3) IF we HOLD FAST TO THE WORD PAUL PREACHED....and PAUL PREACHED THE WORD OF TORAH-OBEDIENCE (citing Dt. 30:14 at Rom.10:8).  So obey!

Paul never said that your obedience PAYS the trillion dollars.

Rather, your obedience is the $20 that insures that Jesus does not REMOVE the trillion-dollar ticket HE paid for you.

 

After all, either you OBEY or DISOBEY....and look at the terrible things that can happen to those who disobey (Mt.5:19-20;7:21-23;13:41-42)....so OBEY!  PAY your $20 because Jesus ALREADY paid the TRILLION dollars for you.  PROVE you love Him (Jn.14:15); otherwise you DON'T.

 

"NOTHING BUT THE BLOOD for Salvation"

Not true.  PAUL says we are saved by GRACE THROUGH FAITH (Eph.2:8-9)....not merely "by the blood".....

And FAITH is of TORAH (Mt.23:23;Dt.32:20;Ps.119:30,86,138;Dt.30:14+Rom.10:8).

Sure, ONLY THE BLOOD pays the trillion dollars.....but FAITH entails that you pay your $20 too....

Those who receive GRACE are those who also pay their $20....

Those whose sins are removed ONLY BY THE BLOOD are those who also pay their $20....so OBEY!

 

"“ DEPART FROM ME , FOR I NEVER KNEW YOU!”"

Now that's COMPLETELY upside down.

Mt. 7:21-23 has Jesus CASTING AWAY religious people because they do WORKS OF LAWLESSNESS (Torah-lessness).  So OBEY!

 

" “Trample on the Blood Of Christ”"

That VERY VERSE (Heb.10:29) uphold the SPIRIT who testifies we obey TORAH (Heb.10:15-16).  So OBEY!

 

"Call me “ crazy”, but I think that Jesus wants “ALL” the Glory due Him"

Ok...you're crazy!  WE are also glorified (Rom.8:30).

WE will be rewarded ACCORDING TO OUR WORKS (2Cor.5:10).

 

"He sees no reason to share any credit for one’s Salvation"

True.  HE ALONE pays the trillion dollar ticket.

WE only pay $20.

We did NOT earn or deserve the trillion dollar ticket.

Not even close.

But we must still pay....or else we are NOT his disciple (Jn.8:31+Mt.5:19).

We must still pay....or else we do NOT love Him (Jn.14:15+Mt.5:19).

 

"Those that try to justify themselves by anything that “ they” did  to merit Salvation, other than simply BELIEVE are going to be in for a long Day— perhaps a very HOT day!"

James is NOT a liar.  We are justified by WORKS AND NOT FAITH ALONE (Jas.2:24)....

 

" Be safe on Judgement Day....why put yourself in Jeopardy ? "

Good point!  Look at the FIERY JUDGMENT against those who DISOBEY TORAH (Mt.13:41-42)...Yikes!  Time to OBEY!

 

"REST IN THE GOSPEL of GRACE ! 1Cor15:1-4"

And that VERY PASSAGE says we are saved IF WE HOLD FAST TO THE WORD PAUL PREACHED (1Cor.15:1-4)...which is FAITHFUL TORAH-OBEDIENCE (citing Dt. 30:14 at Rom.10:8).

 

blessings...

 

Edited December 18, 2019 by BibleGuy
typo

[BibleGuy]

17 hours ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:

 

The Sinai Covenant said, "You are not to commit adultery."  Jesus said that looking upon a woman as just a sex object, IS adultery.  A higher standard.  One involved only the outward action.  The other involved motive and "the heart". 

That “higher standard” is PERFECTION !  Jesus was showing the true intent if the LAW, which was to show everyone that it could NOT be kept .  You MUST have a Savior. Refuse to “ Believe in  the  One that He sent” and His Gospel Of Grace and the IMPUTED PERFECTION that He freely offers, and you will discover that God was not kidding when He proclaimed “ Ye must be Perfect- Even as your Father in Heaven is perfect”. Seize upon God’s “ loop- hole”——The Gospel Of Grace....1cor15:1-4...... Make Certain that you REST in it......    

"Jesus was showing the true intent if the LAW, which was to show everyone that it could NOT be kept . "

COMPLETELY false.  Jesus requires PERFECTION (Mt.5:48) and says it's EASY (Mt.11:30).

Moses said it is NOT too difficult to obey Torah (Dt.30:11).

Luke agrees people can obey ALL TORAH (Lk.1:6).

And, we will again obey 100% of ALL TORAH (Dt.30:1-8).

 

Let's stick to the BIBLE....thanks!

 

" IMPUTED PERFECTION that He freely offers"

UNBIBLICAL term.

TORAH is perfect (Ps.19:7).  BE PERFECT thus entails OBEYING Torah (Mt.5:48 citing Dt. 18:13).

 

"The Gospel Of Grace....1cor15:1-4...... Make Certain that you REST in it...... "

REST in that Gospel by which you are saved (1Cor.15:1-4) IF YOU HOLD FAST TO THE WORD PAUL PREACHED (which is FAITHFUL TORAH-OBEDIENCE, citing Dt. 30:14 at Rom.10:8).

 

blessings...

 

[BibleGuy]

18 hours ago, Resurrection Priest said:

My argument has been against the animal sacrifices of the "First Covenant", that were offered by Levite/Aaronic priests.  I believe that priesthood has been "changed" - BACK TO the priesthood of "the firstborn".  Christ IS "the firstborn" of God.  When we are "in Him" we become priests of that order. 

I do believe "the Law was our tutor to bring us to Christ" - both the prophetic TYPES and the unchanging moral laws.  I just believe the prophetic animal sacrifices are done, now that Christ has become the "one true sacrifice" for all time. 

I am not against the Ten Commandments.  I just believe they are useless without the Spirit of Christ within.  They ARE like a "millstone" around the neck.  They are like an instruction manual for a car - without any gas. 

        The teachings of Jesus went beyond the simple 10 Commandments of the Sinai Covenant - given for a people newly released from slavery.  Under the New Covenant we are to pray for our enemies - for those who use us or persecute us.  We are to love one another as He loved us.  These are higher standards.   These higher standards do NOT void the standards enjoined by the Sinai Covenant.  Rather they ADD TO them. 

The Sinai Covenant said, "You are not to commit adultery."  Jesus said that looking upon a woman as just a sex object, IS adultery.  A higher standard.  One involved only the outward action.  The other involved motive and "the heart". 

My argument is that Jesus comes to RESTORE sacrifices (Mal.3:4) to fulfill the following: Dt. 30:1-8;Eze.40-47;Jer.33;Is.66;Zec.6;Zec.14.

Sacrifices properly CONTINUED into the New Covenant Era (Ac.6:7;21:20-24;Mt.5:24+Mt.28:19-20;[Mk.11:17 citing Is.56:7] + Mt.28:19-20;Col.2:17;Heb.9:6,22;10:1).

After all, the SYMBOL AND THE LITERAL ARE (present tense) functioning in the New Covenant era (Heb.9:9).

ALL the SAME TORAH OF MOSES passes into the NEW Covenant (Jer.31:33), or else Jeremiah is a false prophet.

 

"Under the New Covenant we are to pray for our enemies - for those who use us or persecute us. "

SAME in the OLD Covenant.  Why?  Because it's GOOD to do so.  Doing GOOD is not a new thing!  (Ps.34:14).

 

"Jesus said that looking upon a woman as just a sex object, IS adultery.  A higher standard. "

SAME standard.  Jesus is simply elaborating upon Torah commands....SAME commands....SAME standard (Mt.5:19) for ALL disciples of ALL nations (Mt.28:19-20).

 

" One involved only the outward action. "

DO GOOD is not merely an outward action....it's an INWARD condition of the heart, REQUIRED IN TORAH (Dt.10:16) and in the Prophets (e.g., Jer.4:4).  

DOING GOOD is not something new!

TORAH IS GOOD! (Rom.7:12)...

DOING GOOD is DOING TORAH!  DOING TORAH is DOING GOOD!

Doing good is not something new....and since it's GOOD to not lust for another woman, it's required by TORAH to not lust for another woman.

Jesus was not inventing new commands...He was simply explaining their proper meaning and interpretation....NOT a new meaning....NOT a new interpretation....but simply elaborating upon the Torah....

 

"motive" and "heart" conditions are required by TORAH too....it wasn't a new thing Jesus invented.

 

blessings...

 

 

 

 

[Michael37]

On 12/17/2019 at 10:28 PM, BibleGuy said:

Agreed!  Avoid FOOLISH strivings about the law....not ALL strivings about the law!

JESUS STRIVED about the law with anti-Torah religious people (Mt.23:23).

We MUST do likewise (Lk.6:40;1Jn.2:6).

blessings...

 

Trying to circumvent the grace of God with the Law of Moses is about as foolish as it gets.

Paul Confronts Cephas
…20I have been crucified with Christ, and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. 21I do not set aside the grace of God. For if righteousness comes through the Law, Christ died for nothing.”

Berean Study Bible ·

[BibleGuy]

4 minutes ago, Michael37 said:

Trying to circumvent the grace of God with the Law of Moses is about as foolish as it gets.

Paul Confronts Cephas
…20I have been crucified with Christ, and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. 21I do not set aside the grace of God. For if righteousness comes through the Law, Christ died for nothing.”

Berean Study Bible ·

Upholding SCRIPTURE is not "circumventing" anything....it's just BIBLE.

 

Trying to pretend GRACE and TORAH are mutually exclusive is an EXPLICIT contradiction of Ex.33:13 + 1Ki.2:3.

And GOD requires TORAH (Dt.1:3;5:27-33).

GRACE is given to the HUMBLE (Jas.4:6;Pr.3:34); HUMBLE people obey TORAH (Nu.12:3;Ps.25:9;Zep.2:3;Ex.33:13).

We are justified by GRACE (Rom.3:24) AND TORAH (Rom.2:13).

Jesus REQUIRES even the smallest of Torah commands (Mt.5:19) for ALL disciples of ALL nations (given Mt.28:19-20).

FOOLISHNESS is OPPOSED to Torah (Pr.24:7 + Dt. 4:6).

 

Paul upholds CHRIST who requires TORAH (Mt.5:19).

Paul upholds FAITH which is of TORAH (Mt.23:23;Dt.32:20;Gal.3:11;Ps.119:30,86,138;Dt.30;14 cited at Rom.10:8).

Paul upholds GRACE.  GRACE is given to the HUMBLE (Jas.4:6;Pr.3:34); HUMBLE people obey TORAH (Nu.12:3;Ps.25:9;Zep.2:3;Ex.33:13).

Paul opposes righteousness by law without faith.  Agreed!

Paul requires TORAH-OBEDIENT righteousness (2Ti.3:16).

 

let's get back to the Bible....ALL the Bible....

blessings...

 

[Mal'ak]

2 hours ago, BibleGuy said:

Upholding SCRIPTURE is not "circumventing" anything....it's just BIBLE.

 

Trying to pretend GRACE and TORAH are mutually exclusive is an EXPLICIT contradiction of Ex.33:13 + 1Ki.2:3.

And GOD requires TORAH (Dt.1:3;5:27-33).

GRACE is given to the HUMBLE (Jas.4:6;Pr.3:34); HUMBLE people obey TORAH (Nu.12:3;Ps.25:9;Zep.2:3;Ex.33:13).

We are justified by GRACE (Rom.3:24) AND TORAH (Rom.2:13).

Jesus REQUIRES even the smallest of Torah commands (Mt.5:19) for ALL disciples of ALL nations (given Mt.28:19-20).

FOOLISHNESS is OPPOSED to Torah (Pr.24:7 + Dt. 4:6).

 

Paul upholds CHRIST who requires TORAH (Mt.5:19).

Paul upholds FAITH which is of TORAH (Mt.23:23;Dt.32:20;Gal.3:11;Ps.119:30,86,138;Dt.30;14 cited at Rom.10:8).

Paul upholds GRACE.  GRACE is given to the HUMBLE (Jas.4:6;Pr.3:34); HUMBLE people obey TORAH (Nu.12:3;Ps.25:9;Zep.2:3;Ex.33:13).

Paul opposes righteousness by law without faith.  Agreed!

Paul requires TORAH-OBEDIENT righteousness (2Ti.3:16).

 

let's get back to the Bible....ALL the Bible....

blessings...

 

 

2 hours ago, Michael37 said:

Trying to circumvent the grace of God with the Law of Moses is about as foolish as it gets.

Paul Confronts Cephas
…20I have been crucified with Christ, and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. 21I do not set aside the grace of God. For if righteousness comes through the Law, Christ died for nothing.”

Berean Study Bible ·

 

1 Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

1 Peter 1:8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

1 Peter 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

 

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments

 

Bibleguy has it partly right, but where he loses people is that he did not go through the entire Bible when making his point (which is not a bad one).  We are told in 1 Peter 1 that all Christians to the "receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls", is that we must first have a "trial of your faith".  If all we needed was Grace then the Bible would be lies and God evil, for you can not say you are going to Hell because you did evil then say Christians go to Heaven for doing nothing but God picking them, that would make God a respecter or persons and show all creation he is not a just or righteous God.  As 1 Peter 1 says, "Whom having not seen, ye love", then we go to John 14:15 where it says "if ye love me, keep my commandments".  So if the trial of faith is the proving our love for God and Jesus Christ, then we are told by Jesus himself the only way to show you love him is to keep his commandments.

 

Genesis 11:4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.

Genesis 11:5 And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.

Genesis 11:6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

Genesis 11:7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.

 

There is one verse people use for the Grace only and it is taken out of context to teach a lie, "Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast." But what Christians that want an easy way out and don't want to learn the Bible or want to be good people by struggling to obey the law, is that the entire point of Ephesians 2 was "lest any man should boast".  We can not earn salvation without God, it is the example of the tower of babel, when the people on Earth said "let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven".  The story was man trying to work out their own salvation in a symbolic way, that they did not need God, but could just build a tower and climb to Heaven themselves in their arrogance.  We are sinners and we need God's Grace to ever have a chance to get to Heaven, but we still need to prove our love for God by following the commandments.  Jesus talked about this in Matthew 19, "25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? 26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible."

 

Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Colossians 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Colossians 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

 

Where the Bibleguy is mislead is here in Colossians, we are told to obey the Commandments, but the Torah was filled with ordinances.  While circumcision or not touching a dead body is an ordinance in the Torah, they were never commandments.  The Commandments remain the same, from keeping the sabbath to don't murder.  There are many ordinances that can not be kept, because there are no priests of Levi or Temple, where the ordinances needed to be done and kept, God destroyed both of these so the Jews could no longer try to live by God's Holy Religion of Mosaic law in an evil act of rebellion against his Son because they did not want to be Christians. 

Edited December 18, 2019 by Mal'ak

[BibleGuy]

1 hour ago, Mal'ak said:

 

 

1 Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

1 Peter 1:8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

1 Peter 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

 

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments

 

Bibleguy has it partly right, but where he loses people is that he did not go through the entire Bible when making his point (which is not a bad one).  We are told in 1 Peter 1 that all Christians to the "receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls", is that we must first have a "trial of your faith".  If all we needed was Grace then the Bible would be lies and God evil, for you can not say you are going to Hell because you did evil then say Christians go to Heaven for doing nothing but God picking them, that would make God a respecter or persons and show all creation he is not a just or righteous God.  As 1 Peter 1 says, "Whom having not seen, ye love", then we go to John 14:15 where it says "if ye love me, keep my commandments".  So if the trial of faith is the proving our love for God and Jesus Christ, then we are told by Jesus himself the only way to show you love him is to keep his commandments.

 

Genesis 11:4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.

Genesis 11:5 And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.

Genesis 11:6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

Genesis 11:7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.

 

There is one verse people use for the Grace only and it is taken out of context to teach a lie, "Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast." But what Christians that want an easy way out and don't want to learn the Bible or want to be good people by struggling to obey the law, is that the entire point of Ephesians 2 was "lest any man should boast".  We can not earn salvation without God, it is the example of the tower of babel, when the people on Earth said "let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven".  The story was man trying to work out their own salvation in a symbolic way, that they did not need God, but could just build a tower and climb to Heaven themselves in their arrogance.  We are sinners and we need God's Grace to ever have a chance to get to Heaven, but we still need to prove our love for God by following the commandments.  Jesus talked about this in Matthew 19, "25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? 26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible."

 

Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Colossians 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Colossians 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

 

Where the Bibleguy is mislead is here in Colossians, we are told to obey the Commandments, but the Torah was filled with ordinances.  While circumcision or not touching a dead body is an ordinance in the Torah, they were never commandments.  The Commandments remain the same, from keeping the sabbath to don't murder.  There are many ordinances that can not be kept, because there are no priests of Levi or Temple, where the ordinances needed to be done and kept, God destroyed both of these so the Jews could no longer try to live by God's Holy Religion of Mosaic law in an evil act of rebellion against his Son because they did not want to be Christians. 

Hi there!

Plenty of good points there, thank you!

 

"Where the Bibleguy is mislead is here in Colossians, we are told to obey the Commandments, but the Torah was filled with ordinances.  "

Col. 2 does NOT blot out TORAH ORDINANCES....rather, it blots out the "χειρόγραφον", that is, it blots out our CERTIFICATE OF DEBT.  TORAH is not a "χειρόγραφον".

 

Same thing in Gal. 3:13:  We are redeemed from the CURSE of the law....NOT from the law itself.

 

After all, Paul requires ALL Torah (2Ti.3:16)....so Paul is OBVIOUSLY not cancelling Torah in Col.2!

 

" While circumcision or not touching a dead body is an ordinance in the Torah, they were never commandments.  "

ALL Torah passes into the New Covenant (Jer.31:33), and that INCLUDES Torah ordinances (1Ki.2:3).

The Spirit leads us to keep ALL Torah ordinances (Eze.36:27).

Torah ORDINANCES are not optional.....they are commanded.

 

" While circumcision or not touching a dead body is an ordinance in the Torah, they were never commandments. "

Circumcision is COMMANDED (Lev.12:3).  Call it an "ordinance" if you like, but it's still a commandment in Torah that is REQUIRED.

ALL statutes/ordinances/commandments are required (Dt.5:31).

 

" The Commandments remain the same, from keeping the sabbath to don't murder.  "

ALL Torah is commanded.....(Dt.5:31)...not merely the 10 Commandments.

 

"There are many ordinances that can not be kept, because there are no priests of Levi or Temple"

Don't worry!  We WILL again obey 100%! (Dt.30:1-8)

Jesus comes to RESTORE Levitical sacrifices (Mal.3:4) to fulfill the prophets (Dt.30:1-8;Eze.40-47;Jer.33;Zec.6;Zec.14;Is.66).

 

"God destroyed both of these so the Jews could no longer try to live by God's Holy Religion of Mosaic law in an evil act of rebellion against his Son because they did not want to be Christians. "

WRONG.  Those who properly obey Torah (including sacrifices) ARE Christians! (Ac.6:7;21:21-24;Mt.5:24;Mk.11:17 citing Is.56:7).

 

The cause of the DIASPORA (Jas.1:1) is our TORAH-DISOBEDIENCE (Dt.28:21,63;29:25).

AND!

When we REPENT and OBEY again, we will RETURN to inherit this land promised to us, and we will again obey 100% of ALL Torah (Dt.30:1-8).

AND, we who return will obey God's holy Mosaic Torah as Christians...because the TORAH OF MOSES passes into the NEW Covenant (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10;10:16).

 

blessings...