Honor Your Father and Your Mother

[BibleGuy]

7 minutes ago, Alive said:

It is important for folks to understand that Jesus was the last OT prophet and that He was sent to Israel and was speaking to Jews on most every occasion.

His words need to be heard from the context of the hearers. Those hearers were under Moses, as was Jesus.

It is important for folks to understand that ALL Jesus' commands (including Mt.5:19) apply to ALL disciples of ALL nations (given Mt.28:19-20).

NO Christian is excluded from Israel (Eph.2:12); Israelites obey TORAH (Mal.4:4;Jer.31:31-33;Heb.8:8-10).

 

"His words need to be heard from the context of the hearers. Those hearers were under Moses, as was Jesus."

And the Torah of Moses passes directly into the NEW Covenant (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10;10:16) in which we Christians partake.

SAME TORAH....or else Jeremiah was a false prophet (given Dt. 13:1-5).....you DON'T want to go there.

 

blessings...

 

[BibleGuy]

3 minutes ago, joebloggs said:

You claim that we should follow ALL of the instructions in the torah. BUT you dont follow the instructions of the Torah because.... they're not currently relevant. 

Just to clarify that is your position right?

I'm presuming you dont do any of the sacrifices or offerings either?

"You claim that we should follow ALL of the instructions in the torah."

Yes....TO THE EXTENT POSSIBLE in our present diaspora.....obviously Jesus has not yet restored the Levitical covenant of animal sacrifices....but He will! (Mal.3:4).

So, we do what we can.....

 

"BUT you dont follow the instructions of the Torah because.... they're not currently relevant. "

Well, you can't do what you can't do.  You can't offer sacrifices (like THOUSANDS of 1st-century Christians did, Ac.21:20)....because we don't have a currently functioning Levitical service and tabernacle/temple.

So, we do what we CAN do while in our present diaspora.

 

"I'm presuming you dont do any of the sacrifices or offerings either?"

We can't right now....but don't worry!  Jesus will restore it (Mal.3:4) in the forthcoming temple (Eze.40-47) which He will rebuild (Zec.6) to fulfill Sabbath (Is.66) and the Davidic Covenant (Jer.33), and even Sukkot for all nations (Zec.14), when we again return to inherit the land promised to us (Dt.30:1-8). 

So, until then, there's quite a bit we can't do....

So, we do what we can.

 

blessings....

 

[Alive]

Rom. 8:1   Therefore there is now no ^acondemnation for those who are ^bin ^cChrist Jesus. ² For ^athe law of the Spirit of life ¹in ^bChrist Jesus ^chas set you free from the law of sin and of death. ³ For ^awhat the Law could not do, ^1bweak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in ^cthe likeness of ²sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, ⁴ so that the ^arequirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who ^bdo not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

[joebloggs]

3 minutes ago, BibleGuy said:

"So you dont actually follow the instructions given in the Torah. "

Torah doesn't require that you observe instruction that are unobservable in diaspora.

Torah PREDICTS that we will not be able to obey again 100% until AFTER we return (Dt.30:1-8).

So, we grow in obedience to presently observable Torah portions.....for example, Lev. 11 is an easy start (and Peter applies Lev. 11 to you explicitly, 1Pe1:16).

 

" they are no longer necessary and have been replaced. Even obsolete."

Careful!  It can't be obsolete if we will again obey 100%!  Moses did NOT lie.  We WILL again obey 100% (Dt.30:1-8).

So, start with what you CAN do....like Lev. 11.

And, the Old COVENANT is obsolete (Heb.8:13)...NOT the SAME TORAH which passes into the NEW Covenant.

 

"You should defo listen to what Jesus has to say and take your instructions from him as a Christian."

Ok....now read Mt. 5:19.  Jesus requires ALL Torah.

Now read Mt. 28:19-20.  Jesus applies these to you.

 

blessings...

 

 

I'd take you more seriously if you observed any of the instructions given.

Theres nothing stopping you from observing a lot of the instructions but you still dont.

I have pointed you in the right direction, my work here is done. 

Thanks for the conversation and your time.

[BibleGuy]

2 minutes ago, Alive said:

Rom. 8:1   Therefore there is now no ^acondemnation for those who are ^bin ^cChrist Jesus. ² For ^athe law of the Spirit of life ¹in ^bChrist Jesus ^chas set you free from the law of sin and of death. ³ For ^awhat the Law could not do, ^1bweak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in ^cthe likeness of ²sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, ⁴ so that the ^arequirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who ^bdo not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

That's right!  We in Christ are NOT condemned.

And Christ requires all Torah (Mt.5:19)....so do what you can.

Paul upholds the SPIRIT (Rom.8:2) Who opposes the flesh (Rom.8:13); the flesh disobeys Torah (Rom.8:7); so the Spirit OPPOSES Torah-disobedience; so OBEY Torah in the Spirit!

We are FREE from the law of sin and death (Rom.8:2).  Agreed!

We are now free to OBEY (Mt.5:19;2Ti.3:16;1Jn.5:3;Jn.14:15) and LIVE (Mt.4:4;Dt.8:3;Dt.30:15-19;32:47).

Paul OPPOSES the flesh (Rom.8:4) which disobeys Torah (Rom.8:7).  So OBEY!

After all, Paul just told us that he CONTINUES TO OBEY TORAH (Rom.7:25)...and Paul requires that YOU imitate that Torah-obedient model (1Cor.11:1;Php.4:9).

Again, the Spirit testifies we OBEY Torah (Heb.10:15-16).

So walk in the SPIRIT who leads us to obey Torah!

blessings...

 

[BibleGuy]

4 minutes ago, joebloggs said:

I'd take you more seriously if you observed any of the instructions given.

Theres nothing stopping you from observing a lot of the instructions but you still dont.

I have pointed you in the right direction, my work here is done. 

Thanks for the conversation and your time.

"I'd take you more seriously if you observed any of the instructions given."

Jesus was serious (Mt.5:19)....and He applies it to you (Mt.28:19-20). 

You can't fault me for not observing what's not presently observable.

You CAN obey what IS presently observable.....like Lev. 11 (which Peter applies to you, 1Pe.1:16).

So, do what you can.

blessings.

 

[Alive]

Gal. 3:10   For as many as are of the works of ¹the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “^aCURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM.” ¹¹ Now that ^ano one is justified ¹by ²the Law before God is evident; for, “^3bTHE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.” ^{12 1}However, the Law is not ²of faith; on the contrary, “^aHE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE ³BY THEM.” ¹³ Christ ^aredeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us — for it is written, “^bCURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON ^cA ¹TREE” — ¹⁴ in order that ^ain Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might ¹come to the Gentiles, so that we ^bwould receive ^cthe promise of the Spirit through faith.

 

Gal. 3:15   ^aBrethren, ^bI speak ¹in terms of human relations: ^ceven though it is only a man’s ²covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds ³conditions to it. ¹⁶ Now the promises were spoken ^ato Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as referring to many, but rather to one, “^bAnd to your seed,” that is, Christ. ¹⁷ What I am saying is this: the Law, which came ^afour hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. ¹⁸ For ^aif the inheritance is ¹based on law, it is no longer ¹based on a promise; but ^bGod has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.

 

Gal. 3:19   ^aWhy the Law then? It was added ¹because of transgressions, having been ^bordained through angels ^cby the ²agency of a mediator, until ^dthe seed would come to whom the promise had been made. ²⁰ Now ^aa mediator is not ¹for one party only; whereas God is only one. ²¹ Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? ^aMay it never be! For ^bif a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness ¹would indeed have been ²based on law. ²² But the Scripture has ^ashut up ¹everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

 

Gal. 3:23   But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, ^abeing shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. ²⁴ Therefore the Law has become our ^atutor to lead us to Christ, so that ^bwe may be justified by faith. ²⁵ But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a ^1atutor. ²⁶ For you are all ^asons of God through faith in ^bChrist Jesus. ²⁷ For all of you who were ^abaptized into Christ have ^bclothed yourselves with Christ. ^{28 a}There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is ¹neither male nor female; for ^byou are all one in ^cChrist Jesus. ²⁹ And if ^ayou ¹belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s ²descendants, heirs according to ^bpromise.

 

Gal. 4:1   Now I say, as long as the heir is a ¹child, he does not differ at all from a slave although he is ²owner of everything, ² but he is under guardians and ¹managers until the date set by the father. ³ So also we, while we were children, were held ^ain bondage under the ^1belemental things of the world. ⁴ But when ^athe fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, ^bborn of a woman, born ^cunder ¹the Law, ⁵ so that He might redeem those who were under ¹the Law, that we might receive the adoption as ^asons. ⁶ Because you are sons, ^aGod has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, “^bAbba! Father!” ⁷ Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and ^aif a son, then an heir ¹through God.

 

Gal. 4:8   However at that time, ^awhen you did not know God, you were ^bslaves to ^cthose which by nature are no gods. ⁹ But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be ^aknown by God, ^bhow is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless ^1celemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? ¹⁰ You ^aobserve days and months and seasons and years. ¹¹ I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored ¹over you in vain.

[BibleGuy]

1 minute ago, Alive said:

Gal. 3:10   For as many as are of the works of ¹the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “^aCURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM.” ¹¹ Now that ^ano one is justified ¹by ²the Law before God is evident; for, “^3bTHE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.” ^{12 1}However, the Law is not ²of faith; on the contrary, “^aHE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE ³BY THEM.” ¹³ Christ ^aredeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us — for it is written, “^bCURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON ^cA ¹TREE” — ¹⁴ in order that ^ain Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might ¹come to the Gentiles, so that we ^bwould receive ^cthe promise of the Spirit through faith.

 

Gal. 3:15   ^aBrethren, ^bI speak ¹in terms of human relations: ^ceven though it is only a man’s ²covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds ³conditions to it. ¹⁶ Now the promises were spoken ^ato Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as referring to many, but rather to one, “^bAnd to your seed,” that is, Christ. ¹⁷ What I am saying is this: the Law, which came ^afour hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. ¹⁸ For ^aif the inheritance is ¹based on law, it is no longer ¹based on a promise; but ^bGod has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.

 

Gal. 3:19   ^aWhy the Law then? It was added ¹because of transgressions, having been ^bordained through angels ^cby the ²agency of a mediator, until ^dthe seed would come to whom the promise had been made. ²⁰ Now ^aa mediator is not ¹for one party only; whereas God is only one. ²¹ Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? ^aMay it never be! For ^bif a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness ¹would indeed have been ²based on law. ²² But the Scripture has ^ashut up ¹everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

 

Gal. 3:23   But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, ^abeing shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. ²⁴ Therefore the Law has become our ^atutor to lead us to Christ, so that ^bwe may be justified by faith. ²⁵ But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a ^1atutor. ²⁶ For you are all ^asons of God through faith in ^bChrist Jesus. ²⁷ For all of you who were ^abaptized into Christ have ^bclothed yourselves with Christ. ^{28 a}There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is ¹neither male nor female; for ^byou are all one in ^cChrist Jesus. ²⁹ And if ^ayou ¹belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s ²descendants, heirs according to ^bpromise.

 

Gal. 4:1   Now I say, as long as the heir is a ¹child, he does not differ at all from a slave although he is ²owner of everything, ² but he is under guardians and ¹managers until the date set by the father. ³ So also we, while we were children, were held ^ain bondage under the ^1belemental things of the world. ⁴ But when ^athe fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, ^bborn of a woman, born ^cunder ¹the Law, ⁵ so that He might redeem those who were under ¹the Law, that we might receive the adoption as ^asons. ⁶ Because you are sons, ^aGod has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, “^bAbba! Father!” ⁷ Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and ^aif a son, then an heir ¹through God.

 

Gal. 4:8   However at that time, ^awhen you did not know God, you were ^bslaves to ^cthose which by nature are no gods. ⁹ But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be ^aknown by God, ^bhow is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless ^1celemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? ¹⁰ You ^aobserve days and months and seasons and years. ¹¹ I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored ¹over you in vain.

Thanks for quoting Galatians 3 and 4, written by Paul who requires all Torah (2Ti.3:16).

Let's take a closer look at the TORAH-UPHOLDING context of these Scriptural passages!

 

Gal. 3:2,5 Of COURSE we do not receive the Spirit by works without faith. Paul requires works (Eph.2:10) AND faith (Eph.2:8-9) TOGETHER.

Gal. 3:3 Paul OPPOSES the flesh, because the flesh DISOBEYS Torah (Rom.8:7).

Gal.3:6 Paul AFFIRMS Abraham, who ALSO OBEYED GOD'S COMMANDS AND LAWS (Ge.26:5). Thus, we should too.

Gal. 3:7 Paul affirms FAITH. Faith is of TORAH (Mt.23:23).

Gal. 3:8 Paul affirms FAITH. Faith is of TORAH (Ps.119:30).

Gal. 3:9 Paul affirms FAITH. Faith is of TORAH (Ps.119:86).

Gal. 3:10-11 Of COURSE we are cursed if we obey without faith. After all, Torah requires FAITH! (Dt.32:20).

Gal. 3:12 Of COURSE anybody who plays the "let's obey Torah without faith" game will lose! Because Dt. 6:25 without faith is a contradiction. Dt. 6:25 REQUIRES faith (given Dt. 32:20).

Gal. 3:13 We are redeemed form the CURSE of Torah (not from the Torah itself!)

Gal. 3:14 affirms the SPIRIT (who testifies we OBEY Torah, Heb.10:15-16;Eze.36:27) "from now and forever" (Is.59:20-21).

Gal. 3:18 Of COURSE inheritance is not based on law without faith in the promise.

Gal. 3:19,25 Of COURSE the tutor function of Christ is no longer in force. But that's NOT the only function of Torah! Thus Paul still requires it (2Ti.3:16). Jesus too (Mt.5:19) for ALL disciples of ALL nations (Mt.28:19-20).

Gal.3:21 TORAH and God's promises are NOT inconsistent. So accept BOTH! (STOP trying to get the promises without God's laws...)

Gal. 3:21-22 Of COURSE life and righteousness are not by law without faith in Jesus. Paul requires BOTH law AND faith (Rom.2:13+Rom.5:1) for justification.

Gal. 3:24 The Torah leads us to Christ. And Christ points us straight back to Torah (Mt.4:4;5:19-20;7:21-23;13:41-42;22:37;23:2-3,23,34;Lk.10:25-28) for ALL (Mt.28:19-20).

Gal. 3:26 affirms FAITH in JESUS. Jesus says FAITH is of TORAH (Mt.23:23).

Gal. 3:27 affirms Jesus. Jesus requires TORAH (Mt. 5:19).

Gal. 3:29 affirms we share in Abraham's land-inheritance....which will occur when we again obey 100% of ALL Torah (Dt.30:1-8).

Gal. 4:6 affirms the Father who requires Torah (Dt.1:3;5:27-33;etc.)

Gal.4:7 affirms God who requires Torah (Dt.1:3;5:27-33;etc.)

Gal. 4:9-10 condemns observation of pagan seasons, months, days, and years. (Paul REQUIRES Torah feast, though....e.g., 1Cor.5:7-8).

Gal. 4:21 condemns being under the law. Under the law means WITHOUT FAITH (given Gal.3:23). Paul requires faith (Rom.5:1) AND law (Rom.2:13) TOGETHER.

Gal. 4:31 We are of the New Covenant, not Hagar (the Old Covenant, Gal.4:24). Paul requires the NEW Covenant (1Cor.11), which is given as TORAH (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10).

 

blessings...

 

[6DaysiseneG]

The command to honor my parents has been a difficult one meaning I do not try to speak ill of them all Willy nilly but if I need help in an area and it's in relation to them I am honest so I can be helped. It's interesting though I came from an unsavory upbringing and one has died my mine only searches for the best in that one because at the end of the day though few and infrequent there were some and I refuse to be bitter. I honor my living mother by doing what is best for us both..a restraining order lol.. so yes kinda a confusing thing to do when parents are sinfully abusive. Just my thoughts and experience for now.

[missmuffet]

It is the right thing to do to honor your mother and father if you have Christian parents but.....

If a parent ever instructs a child to do something that clearly contradicts God’s commands, that child must obey God rather than his/her parents (Acts 5:29).

Edited December 14, 2019 by missmuffet