Are the 10 Commandments called "the moral law"?

[Billiards Ball]

14 hours ago, Tzephanyahu said:

Yes, according to oral tradition, Messiah broke the rules. But not according to Torah. 

The Lord always observed the Sabbath but went out of His way to show a more important mitzvah - to love each other and do good.  

The Torah is set out with sone mitzvot being more important than others - that's just a fact, and if anyone can't see that they have misunderstood Torah. But the principal mitzvah is love, both for Yahweh and for our neighbour. 

Now, if I see a brother in need on thr Sabbath and by my work I can help or bless him, I should do so. Because loving each other trumps even the mighty Sabbath. That seems to be the Messiah’s poiny. He worked on thr Sabbath to heal and restore because He could and there was need. Yahweh is smart enough to understand the context of a situation and violating the Sabbath to help or comfort someone is permitted. But what about violating it for selfish reasons? 

Therefore,  on the Sabbath, when there is no one "in need" across our path or within our reach, "business as usual" should be resting from our work and devoting that time to Yahweh. Joyfully and accepting it as a delight, as Scripture says, not as a chore and hard thing. If it is bothersome to someone or they become legalistic (no light switches etc), then don't bother, you've missed the point. 

I look forward to the Sabbath eagerly each week. It is a real treasure to me. Does that mean I don't worship Yahweh every day of the week and study throughout the week? Of course not. But rather, on the Sabbath its an extra special time I willing devote to Him. 

Sometimes I'm not ready for the Sabbath mentally as I have things to do, buy and work on. But because I stop and observe it anyway, I reap the benefits of the rest rather than the fruits of my work.  Its like Yahweh reminds us that we need this imposed rest because its so easy not to have and reschedule and do this and that. But, bu observing it, its like you get whisked out of thw world each Friday night to be with Him and stop "doing" and just "be". 

True, most Christians observe sunday as you imply or say "every day is sabbath / Jesus is our sabbath". I don't though. Rather, I observe it from Friday from sundown to Saturday sundown. 

And technically they are correct if they are saying you are breaking the Torah. But that shouldn't concern you anyway, right?

But again, I'm not saying Sabbath = Salvation. I'm saying Sabbath = Obedience/Benefit. It's a gift. No one should be forced into keeping it if they don't want it. 

I agree. If you want to keep the Sabbath, great for you. If you want to rest Friday evening instead of Monday evening (I was with a church for many years where the staff worked six days and took Mondays off since they were busy weekends), great. Thanks for hearing me out. Please bear in mind, though, when you say "We should joyfully NOT do works on Sabbath as obedience" that seems contrary to lot of principles I know from the Bible, other than the principle to honor the Sabbath with one's children to point to the rest found in Jesus Christ from works, for salvation. Does that make sense to you?

[Billiards Ball]

14 hours ago, Tzephanyahu said:

By the way, yes of course I agree that Yahushua HaMashiach/Jesus Christ is Lord.

But this is quite clear.  If you think that breaking the Sabbath is as clear as that, then again, please provide me a witness from The words of Yahweh, the Messiah or the rest of the 52 books in The Bible instead of the same ol' tired misunderstood sentences of Paul here and there.  Surely there will be plenty of witnesses on such major topic. Surely the Messiah would have made it clear, no? 

But what about Isaiah 56 that says that the gentiles who observe the Sabbath He will bring to His Holy Mountain? Should we ignore such words in Isaiah and instead go with "breaking the sabbath is lawful", based on what? How some have understood some sentences of Paul here and there? 

Far too many are overly familiar with the letters of Paul compared to the rest of the Bible. Paul's letters are scripture, but they need to be understood in the context of the WHOLE Bible (as Paul would have said himself) andnot separated as "the gentile part, in which God quickly updates them with changes to the Word, in a few scattered sentences" 

I'm uncomfortable with describing any verses from the 66 books as "ol' tired misunderstood". And I understand Paul's context in the larger Bible, as do you.

I also do not misunderstand the parsing of what Jews like Paul and Jesus did as Jews, while reaching beyond the barriers to be all things to Gentiles, too.

But I'm surprised you insist I need to go outside Paul to demonstrate why any part of the Jewish Law, not just Sabbath, is binding on Gentiles. Would you marry your brother's wife to raise up offspring to his name, or avoid wearing mixed fabrics in your clothing? Do you eat shellfish and pork? And of course, there is no way you go to Jerusalem to sacrifice animals when you sin. I was there last year and couldn't even get onto the Temple Mount.

James says whoever breaks one law is at issue--I could get thrown out of college for not paying fees and/or for plagiarism and/or for stealing quiz answers but need not do all three, just break one to get broken. James is saying if you law-keep to salvation...

...Of course, you aren't saying that, you are suggesting law-keeping unto sanctification. However, I've never given a testimony that I'm "really growing in the Lord because I haven't murdered anyone this year, and because I married my brother's wife and wear cotton clothing only." So saying, "Resting Friday evening brings me closer to the Lord" is FINE, that's your vehicle for prayer and fellowship with Mashiach, but saying that will work for every believer is not clearly enunciated in the scriptures.

If I may suggest something to you, delicately, respectfully? The context of Romans 14 and etc. is that people who are weaker in faith need to prop their faith via certain actions. Is there a reason I should feel "special" on a certain calendar day? Is my faith strong if I feel I can't be as close to Jesus at Christmas or Halloween as at Easter? Etc.

[Tzephanyahu]

22 minutes ago, Billiards Ball said:

Thanks for hearing me out.

You're welcome.  Forgive my initial reluctance.  Far too many times on here I run into people who want to argue for the sake of argument, instead of having genuine questions.

23 minutes ago, Billiards Ball said:

Please bear in mind, though, when you say "We should joyfully NOT do works on Sabbath as obedience" that seems contrary to lot of principles I know from the Bible, other than the principle to honor the Sabbath with one's children to point to the rest found in Jesus Christ from works, for salvation. Does that make sense to you?

I'm sorry, I'm not quite sure what you mean by this. Can you explain it another way at all?  

Basically I'm saying we should stop work and buying and selling for the Sabbath, the seventh day of the week.  However, if we can help, bless, love or comfort someone on the Sabbath, but it requires us to work, then it's permitted.  This is because love for each other and helping one another is the whole point of Torah - but if we sidestep that in order to obey another commandment, we have missed the main point of the Torah.

17 minutes ago, Billiards Ball said:

I'm uncomfortable with describing any verses from the 66 books as "ol' tired misunderstood". And I understand Paul's context in the larger Bible, as do you.

Yeah that was an inappropriate comment I suppose.  I absolutely love Paul and his letters are part of my favourite section of the Bible.

However, Paul is a masterclass in Scripture.  He writes with a lot of presuppositions of the reader and has multiple arcs of teaching in one letter which he entwines together like a rope for his message.  Therefore, I feel taking a verse here and there to prove something isn't a wise thing to do.  Nor do I feel it's wise to say you have understood Paul unless you have a firm grasp of the Tanakh - otherwise you will stumble.

21 minutes ago, Billiards Ball said:

Would you marry your brother's wife to raise up offspring to his name

No, but I am not in a tribe of Israel.  The goal of this was the preservation of the 12 tribes and families.  

22 minutes ago, Billiards Ball said:

or avoid wearing mixed fabrics in your clothing

If I can.  The goal of this seems to be two-fold to me.  Firstly, to avoid the rips and tears that would come upon the garment (back in those days) thereby exposing nakedness and making the Lord's people look in tatters.  Secondly, as a spiritual lesson saying to not be unequally yoked.

23 minutes ago, Billiards Ball said:

Do you eat shellfish and pork?

No.  I don't eat anything unclean (to my knowledge).  If our Father says "Hey kids, don't eat that stuff, it's not clean, trust me"  then I will listen.  If I can give up my life for Him then giving up pork and shellfish is no problem.  I missed for a while at first ( I used to love all day breakfasts!) but now I don't at all.

Consider this also.  You might tell a two year old "Do not keeping eating these sweets".  You don't explain the intricacies or science as too why as it's beyond the child's understanding.  In the same way I'm sure it's the same with these unclean foods.  After all, pigs and prawns are effectively nature's garbage cleaners and science is catching up on the detrimental effects pork can have on the body in the long term.

26 minutes ago, Billiards Ball said:

And of course, there is no way you go to Jerusalem to sacrifice animals when you sin.

Well, the sacrifice for sin has been offered once for all of course.  Besides, the days are here when we do not worship Yahweh in Jerusalem but in Spirit and Truth.  That is, until New Jerusalem arrives!

28 minutes ago, Billiards Ball said:

James says whoever breaks one law is at issue-

Yes, and often misunderstood verse, I feel. 

One cannot say they keep Torah and not love their neighbour, or commit adultery, or eat unclean things.  It's not like "I've kept 99% of it", because the Torah is like a river - it all flows together and it cannot be ignored at one point without ignoring it all.  I think we agree on this so far.

Now, people then tend to add to this "See! You have to keep 613 laws or follow Messiah!" but that's just not true.  There is not 613 laws.  This codification of the Torah is man-made and includes many repetitions, further law definitions, laws for priests only, laws for women only, laws to only action in certain situations and even just explanations.  So 613 is a grossly inflated number.

But in that James passage doesn't he only go onto to refer to some of the 10 commandments?  So, for the sake of keeping things simple at this stage, do you think a man could say "I keep the 10 commandments" but ignore the Sabbath?  No. Wouldn't that example make sense of the James passage?

41 minutes ago, Billiards Ball said:

So saying, "Resting Friday evening brings me closer to the Lord" is FINE, that's your vehicle for prayer and fellowship with Mashiach, but saying that will work for every believer is not clearly enunciated in the scriptures.

I see what you are saying.  However, I still think that if you were born on a desert island with a Bible, and therefore no preconceived ideas, no church and no modern Christian leaders, there would be a good chance you would close the book at Revelation believing the Sabbath still stands.  However, that's conjecture I suppose.  So let's look at this differently...

Suppose there was was blessing in Sabbath and keeping it.  Suppose you discovered this and, whilst it added nothing to your salvation, it was still a blessing and a gift you had benefited from, more so than you would have predicted.  Wouldn't you want to share that with other brothers and sisters?  Surely it would be selfish to keep it to yourself.

I personally believe that all can benefit from Sabbath-keeping.  Me, you and even those completely ignorant of Torah.  

But if anyone observes it legalistically or with a heavy heart - it's better if they never observed it at all, if that makes sense.  

1 hour ago, Billiards Ball said:

The context of Romans 14 and etc. is that people who are weaker in faith need to prop their faith via certain actions. Is there a reason I should feel "special" on a certain calendar day? Is my faith strong if I feel I can't be as close to Jesus at Christmas or Halloween as at Easter? Etc.

I really don't want to discuss Paul as this often goes round it circles, but for you I will

So Paul starts talking  about how some eat meat and some eat only vegetables.  This was a practice that was happening at the time as just about every meat available in the market place was offered to some "god", so many avoided meat altogether.   Paul was like "So what? Don't fall out of this.  If they want to avoid meat, let them.  If you are confident to eat the meat knowing there is no other god, don't be bolshy with your beliefs and lord it over them"

Paul goes on to speak about esteemed days which, again, stems from other practices of the day.  The first day of the week was being reverenced for the resurrection and, since the Babylonian captivity, regular fasts were being held in honour/memorial.  Some held fast (no pun) to these even in the first century.  Paul was saying "So what? Don't fall out about it.  If they celebrate this day or that day to the Lord, let them.  Why are you judging each other?"

But was Paul speaking against the Sabbath in this?  No, not at all.  If Paul was going to speak against the Sabbath (knowing it's importance) he would have written a whole letter clearly detailing this and spelling it out - like he did to the Galatians about circumcision. How can we expect that he would just casually say "meh, sabbath is not important any more" - especially with so many hot on his heels (Both Pharisees and Christians) seeking to accuse him of doing wrong.

As for Christmas, Halloween and Easter.  These days are specifically associated with pagan celebrations (For anyone else reading: I'm not going to debate this, there is plenty of information available on this forum and the web). So, if we choose to celebrate the Messiah more on such a day, or decorate our house like others at that time, or even join in with their traditions - what should we say about this.  Is it wise? Is it a good witness? Are we compromising and using the Lord's birth and resurrection as an excuse? 

All I know is that I have met many atheists that mock Christianity and God when they see Christians do such events as they see as hypocritical - because the pagan roots are becoming very well known to the mainstream.  Make of that what you will. 

I don't observe those festivals anymore neither do I encourage them.  But, if you do them, "So what?".  I'm in no position to judge you or your walk.  My abstaining from Christmas is no indication of my worthiness, wisdom or dedication to the Lord.  But I was convicted about them and would have been a fool to ignore that conviction.

Sorry I've bumbled on too long.

Love & Shalom 

[Billiards Ball]

1 hour ago, Tzephanyahu said:

You're welcome.  Forgive my initial reluctance.  Far too many times on here I run into people who want to argue for the sake of argument, instead of having genuine questions.

I'm sorry, I'm not quite sure what you mean by this. Can you explain it another way at all?  

Basically I'm saying we should stop work and buying and selling for the Sabbath, the seventh day of the week.  However, if we can help, bless, love or comfort someone on the Sabbath, but it requires us to work, then it's permitted.  This is because love for each other and helping one another is the whole point of Torah - but if we sidestep that in order to obey another commandment, we have missed the main point of the Torah.

Yeah that was an inappropriate comment I suppose.  I absolutely love Paul and his letters are part of my favourite section of the Bible.

However, Paul is a masterclass in Scripture.  He writes with a lot of presuppositions of the reader and has multiple arcs of teaching in one letter which he entwines together like a rope for his message.  Therefore, I feel taking a verse here and there to prove something isn't a wise thing to do.  Nor do I feel it's wise to say you have understood Paul unless you have a firm grasp of the Tanakh - otherwise you will stumble.

No, but I am not in a tribe of Israel.  The goal of this was the preservation of the 12 tribes and families.  

If I can.  The goal of this seems to be two-fold to me.  Firstly, to avoid the rips and tears that would come upon the garment (back in those days) thereby exposing nakedness and making the Lord's people look in tatters.  Secondly, as a spiritual lesson saying to not be unequally yoked.

No.  I don't eat anything unclean (to my knowledge).  If our Father says "Hey kids, don't eat that stuff, it's not clean, trust me"  then I will listen.  If I can give up my life for Him then giving up pork and shellfish is no problem.  I missed for a while at first ( I used to love all day breakfasts!) but now I don't at all.

Consider this also.  You might tell a two year old "Do not keeping eating these sweets".  You don't explain the intricacies or science as too why as it's beyond the child's understanding.  In the same way I'm sure it's the same with these unclean foods.  After all, pigs and prawns are effectively nature's garbage cleaners and science is catching up on the detrimental effects pork can have on the body in the long term.

Well, the sacrifice for sin has been offered once for all of course.  Besides, the days are here when we do not worship Yahweh in Jerusalem but in Spirit and Truth.  That is, until New Jerusalem arrives!

Yes, and often misunderstood verse, I feel. 

One cannot say they keep Torah and not love their neighbour, or commit adultery, or eat unclean things.  It's not like "I've kept 99% of it", because the Torah is like a river - it all flows together and it cannot be ignored at one point without ignoring it all.  I think we agree on this so far.

Now, people then tend to add to this "See! You have to keep 613 laws or follow Messiah!" but that's just not true.  There is not 613 laws.  This codification of the Torah is man-made and includes many repetitions, further law definitions, laws for priests only, laws for women only, laws to only action in certain situations and even just explanations.  So 613 is a grossly inflated number.

But in that James passage doesn't he only go onto to refer to some of the 10 commandments?  So, for the sake of keeping things simple at this stage, do you think a man could say "I keep the 10 commandments" but ignore the Sabbath?  No. Wouldn't that example make sense of the James passage?

I see what you are saying.  However, I still think that if you were born on a desert island with a Bible, and therefore no preconceived ideas, no church and no modern Christian leaders, there would be a good chance you would close the book at Revelation believing the Sabbath still stands.  However, that's conjecture I suppose.  So let's look at this differently...

Suppose there was was blessing in Sabbath and keeping it.  Suppose you discovered this and, whilst it added nothing to your salvation, it was still a blessing and a gift you had benefited from, more so than you would have predicted.  Wouldn't you want to share that with other brothers and sisters?  Surely it would be selfish to keep it to yourself.

I personally believe that all can benefit from Sabbath-keeping.  Me, you and even those completely ignorant of Torah.  

But if anyone observes it legalistically or with a heavy heart - it's better if they never observed it at all, if that makes sense.  

I really don't want to discuss Paul as this often goes round it circles, but for you I will

So Paul starts talking  about how some eat meat and some eat only vegetables.  This was a practice that was happening at the time as just about every meat available in the market place was offered to some "god", so many avoided meat altogether.   Paul was like "So what? Don't fall out of this.  If they want to avoid meat, let them.  If you are confident to eat the meat knowing there is no other god, don't be bolshy with your beliefs and lord it over them"

Paul goes on to speak about esteemed days which, again, stems from other practices of the day.  The first day of the week was being reverenced for the resurrection and, since the Babylonian captivity, regular fasts were being held in honour/memorial.  Some held fast (no pun) to these even in the first century.  Paul was saying "So what? Don't fall out about it.  If they celebrate this day or that day to the Lord, let them.  Why are you judging each other?"

But was Paul speaking against the Sabbath in this?  No, not at all.  If Paul was going to speak against the Sabbath (knowing it's importance) he would have written a whole letter clearly detailing this and spelling it out - like he did to the Galatians about circumcision. How can we expect that he would just casually say "meh, sabbath is not important any more" - especially with so many hot on his heels (Both Pharisees and Christians) seeking to accuse him of doing wrong.

As for Christmas, Halloween and Easter.  These days are specifically associated with pagan celebrations (For anyone else reading: I'm not going to debate this, there is plenty of information available on this forum and the web). So, if we choose to celebrate the Messiah more on such a day, or decorate our house like others at that time, or even join in with their traditions - what should we say about this.  Is it wise? Is it a good witness? Are we compromising and using the Lord's birth and resurrection as an excuse? 

All I know is that I have met many atheists that mock Christianity and God when they see Christians do such events as they see as hypocritical - because the pagan roots are becoming very well known to the mainstream.  Make of that what you will. 

I don't observe those festivals anymore neither do I encourage them.  But, if you do them, "So what?".  I'm in no position to judge you or your walk.  My abstaining from Christmas is no indication of my worthiness, wisdom or dedication to the Lord.  But I was convicted about them and would have been a fool to ignore that conviction.

Sorry I've bumbled on too long.

Love & Shalom 

I appreciate very much your sharing, and at length. I'm glad you opened your heart to me. You are kind. I will try to keep my replies succinct:

1) I agree about "do you think a man could say "I keep the 10 commandments" but ignore the Sabbath?". But I don't keep the 10 or even try to. I try to avoid lust, not just adultery, and anger, not just murder. It is also vital to consider that only 9 of the decalogue are repeated in the NT, the Sabbath isn't.

2) I'm a Jewish Christian and avoid the kind of silliness you are advocating against here about hypocrisy.

3) I didn't mean to imply pagan Christmas is a special day, but I did point out that it's silly to think, I can love Jesus more (or less) because it's a pagan day. Indeed, rather than hide from Halloween, I'd take my kids "trick or tracting" for an easy way to share with dozens of families in a short time.

4) A key point of the NT seems to be that no one keeps 100% or even 99% of Torah, otherwise Yeshua could skip the cross and tell us to be saved by works of Torah.

5) Paul warns us of straying from the simplicity in Christ that deceived Adam and Eve. I try to keep it simple. Of course he wasn't speaking against Sabbath, since he kept the Sabbath. But we have to be careful in hermeneutics as to what the Bible doesn't say. It doesn't say, "Beware of those pagan days" and it doesn't say, "Don't keep the Sabbath". What it does say is that people have weaker or stronger faith, regarding, for key examples, food and days of observance. If one is fully convinced in one's mind, such observance or lack of observance is of faith or lacks faith and is sin. It may be sinful to you to work on Shabbos, to me, it's another day. I cannot therefore benefit from keeping Shabbos, although I get some things from keeping it while in Israel or with Orthodox folks of good repute...

6) After all, my good news is "As a Jew, I moved from salvation by works of Torah to salvation trusting Yeshua," not "I moved from salvation by works of Torah to really, really, really difficult salvation by trying to keep 100% of Torah and 100% of NT precepts," which is really BAD news for sinners.

7) I have family who don't eat traif who are born again. However, I eat bacon and shellfish and agree it passes through my system. It's my heart that is far more bothersome to me!

[Tzephanyahu]

8 hours ago, Billiards Ball said:

I appreciate very much your sharing, and at length.

Ah, you're very welcome my friend. Apologies at just how much length.  I need to reign it in.  But it's a pleasure to converse with someone who is open to discuss the matter reasonably.

8 hours ago, Billiards Ball said:

It is also vital to consider that only 9 of the decalogue are repeated in the NT, the Sabbath isn't.

Yes, I've heard this point raised before.  But it does need consideration.  

My boss employed me with certain rules and guidelines in my contract.  Now, throughout the year he highlights and gently reminds of some rules, but not all of them are brought up.  But how would he react if I violated one of the ones he didn't mention in recent years with the argument "well, you didn't bring this rule up again in your recent emails"?  

The argument from silence is understandable but is it really a "sure thing".  Can we say with certainty "Well, Yahushua (Jesus) didn't mention it here, so it must be fine".  Where do we draw the line with that.  For the Lord didn't specifically mention beastality, homosexuality or kidnapping - are they therefore okay because of His silence on the matter?  I'm using extreme examples rhetorically.

So why the silence then?  I suspect it was because this was the easiest for the Jews to keep in the first century.  Jerusalem would have shut down at the time of the Sabbath and most people would have not much choice of things to do other than rest.  It's passive keeping would have been easy for even the most sinful of men living in first century Judea - whereas the rest of the 10 requires action or resistance. 

Juxtaposing this idea above,  we find that in this day an age the world is geared in both the entertainment industry and commerce to have Friday night and Saturday as among the busiest of times.

8 hours ago, Billiards Ball said:

I'm a Jewish Christian and avoid the kind of silliness you are advocating against here about hypocrisy.

Amen, good on you.

8 hours ago, Billiards Ball said:

rather than hide from Halloween, I'd take my kids "trick or tracting" for an easy way to share with dozens of families in a short time.

I like that idea.  Interesting.

8 hours ago, Billiards Ball said:

A key point of the NT seems to be that no one keeps 100% or even 99% of Torah, otherwise Yeshua could skip the cross and tell us to be saved by works of Torah.

Now I don't think that's true, personally.  There are examples in Scripture in which we are told of righteous men, who can only be classified as such by following the way of Torah - as they predated Yahushua / Yeshua's sacrifice.  For example - the priest Zechariah (Luke 1:6), Simeon the Prophet (Luke 2:25), Joseph of Arimathea (23:50), Paul (Philippians 3:6), John the Baptist (Mark 6:20), Cornelius (Acts 10:22), Job (Job 1:1) and many others.  

One can follow Torah, as shown above, and it's not impossible or too hard to do, as most Christian proponents say today.  They say this without understanding the Torah and just cowering in fear at "613 laws", which I discussed previously.

Walking by the Torah is a way of life, rather than a legalistic tick list as some think.  It's a way, a path.  Most of the book of Psalms celebrates this fact including the longest, Psalm 119.  If a Christian can read Psalm 119, find their heart stirred in love, and give a hearty "amen" at the end - then they have understood the way of Torah.

So I don't believe the Messiah came to save us from the beautiful guidelines that the Father gave to us (probably through Yeshua).  Rather, I believe He came to save us from the penalty of not following the Torah that was due to us - so that we could follow in newness of spirit, by the Spirit.  And the Holy Spirit guides us in the way of Torah as we read it regularly - IF we read it regularly.  The truth is between the lines of the commands.

8 hours ago, Billiards Ball said:

t may be sinful to you to work on Shabbos, to me, it's another day. I cannot therefore benefit from keeping Shabbos,

I totally get that.  But as we grow in our new life in Messiah, what do you think that looks like?  Just getting older and helping people more?  But what about obedience. Do you think that should increase as we mature?

We have simple rules for toddlers, increased rules for teenagers, expected standards for young adults, and trust of common sense for mature adults.  The way I see it, as we come the Lord , we come as children - nothing but salvation matters and we simply walk in love for Him. As we read the Word, we refine ourselves and behaviour and the Spirit trains us as we grow.  But as we grow more mature in the Messiah, don't you think Yahweh would expect us to start growing more and break out of the early stages?

In this way, the Sabbath is not required for salvation and neither is it forced upon you to do. For a new believer it is technically another day.  But as we read His Word more and learn just how important it is to Him, we get to a crossroads.  Do we observe it or not.  Now we are free not to, having already obtained the gift of salvation.  But what will you do with that freedom?  Freely obey or keep it as just another day.

I hope you don't take offence at that, it's just how I see it personally.

8 hours ago, Billiards Ball said:

After all, my good news is "As a Jew, I moved from salvation by works of Torah to salvation trusting Yeshua," not "I moved from salvation by works of Torah to really, really, really difficult salvation by trying to keep 100% of Torah and 100% of NT precepts," which is really BAD news for sinners.

Hah, yes, that wouldn't be good news!  Although,  I don't think Torah got harder but rather revealed through the Messiah.  He showed us how to understand the Torah. Not as "Thou shalt not" and "Thou shalt do" but rather - "This is what the Father means" and "This is how He feels". 

As for understanding the rest of the Torah in the same light of the the Beatitudes, we have the Spirit to reveal this wisdom to us.  The the Torah goes from a list of ordinances to a voice whispering "This is the way, walk in it".

Therefore, the good news is truly salvation first and revelation of His Word thereafter.

8 hours ago, Billiards Ball said:

I have family who don't eat traif who are born again. However, I eat bacon and shellfish and agree it passes through my system. It's my heart that is far more bothersome to me!

You raise a great point hear my friend.  The heart is the main concern and it should take top priority over food.  For what good is it to eat clean meats but speak bitterly to a brother.

However, the former should be done without neglecting the other.  What I mean is clean food can be eaten whilst we work on our hearts (or rather let the Spirit work on our hearts).  Because if we wait until we'll perfect before eating kosher, then we never will.  It's like saying "I will stop lying after I stop committing adultery" - Perhaps an extreme example.

But you are absolutely right, the heart is the priority and if it becomes too bothersome, matters of clean and unclean food pale in comparison.  Good point.

May I ask, did you once observe Torah according to oral tradition before coming to the Messiah? 

One more question, if you don't mind.  Don't you find it strange that the Sabbath (according to your understanding) was annulled in just a few sentences by Paul and not explicitly by Messiah?  Wouldn't that mean that Yahweh was dealing unfairly with us, as if saying "Let's just not mention the Sabbath at all and see if they get that I'm no longer interested in it.  Then, I'll have Paul write vaguely about it in a couple of letters, nothing specific though. Hopefully, that will be enough for them to see I've overturned all of my previous statements".  Or, is it more likely the distorted teachings brought in by the Catholic Church bled into Christianity (historically provable) and people misinterpreting Paul (2 Pet 3:14-18) as they stay mainly in the New Testament?  Because, ultimately, those are surely the only two options here.  But isn't the first option a little... weird?

Love & Shalom

Edited January 9, 2020 by Tzephanyahu

[Blood Bought 1953]

On 1/6/2020 at 8:58 AM, Billiards Ball said:

Theologians parse the 613 Torah commandments as legal, ceremonial and moral law. Christians have a HIGHER law, for example, the commandments say don't commit murder, Christians avoid unrighteous anger.

 

I agree, BB2 ( I am BB1, of course ....lol ) .All Of this “ parsing” in regard to a section of the Law that in its entirety is “ weak,beggarly, and useless” is the very definition of something  that is “ small potatoes”

Here is what matters. To “ sabbath” means to REST. The only “ rest” that God is concerned about is the one He is going to be asking you about when you stand in front of Him.Paul said that we will be “ Judged by his Gospel” Did you Believe It ? God has commanded us to REST in that Gospel—- THAT is how you PROVE that you really believe it. Time would be better spent bickering about a “ sabbath” that will determine where you will spend Eternity ( sabbathing in the Gospel Of 1Cor15:1-4 )  than one that does not amount to a hill of beans in God’s eyes. Why waste computer ink “ majoring in the minors”...

 

Edited January 9, 2020 by Blood Bought 1953

[Billiards Ball]

12 hours ago, Tzephanyahu said:

Ah, you're very welcome my friend. Apologies at just how much length.  I need to reign it in.  But it's a pleasure to converse with someone who is open to discuss the matter reasonably.

Yes, I've heard this point raised before.  But it does need consideration.  

My boss employed me with certain rules and guidelines in my contract.  Now, throughout the year he highlights and gently reminds of some rules, but not all of them are brought up.  But how would he react if I violated one of the ones he didn't mention in recent years with the argument "well, you didn't bring this rule up again in your recent emails"?  

The argument from silence is understandable but is it really a "sure thing".  Can we say with certainty "Well, Yahushua (Jesus) didn't mention it here, so it must be fine".  Where do we draw the line with that.  For the Lord didn't specifically mention beastality, homosexuality or kidnapping - are they therefore okay because of His silence on the matter?  I'm using extreme examples rhetorically.

So why the silence then?  I suspect it was because this was the easiest for the Jews to keep in the first century.  Jerusalem would have shut down at the time of the Sabbath and most people would have not much choice of things to do other than rest.  It's passive keeping would have been easy for even the most sinful of men living in first century Judea - whereas the rest of the 10 requires action or resistance. 

Juxtaposing this idea above,  we find that in this day an age the world is geared in both the entertainment industry and commerce to have Friday night and Saturday as among the busiest of times.

Amen, good on you.

I like that idea.  Interesting.

Now I don't think that's true, personally.  There are examples in Scripture in which we are told of righteous men, who can only be classified as such by following the way of Torah - as they predated Yahushua / Yeshua's sacrifice.  For example - the priest Zechariah (Luke 1:6), Simeon the Prophet (Luke 2:25), Joseph of Arimathea (23:50), Paul (Philippians 3:6), John the Baptist (Mark 6:20), Cornelius (Acts 10:22), Job (Job 1:1) and many others.  

One can follow Torah, as shown above, and it's not impossible or too hard to do, as most Christian proponents say today.  They say this without understanding the Torah and just cowering in fear at "613 laws", which I discussed previously.

Walking by the Torah is a way of life, rather than a legalistic tick list as some think.  It's a way, a path.  Most of the book of Psalms celebrates this fact including the longest, Psalm 119.  If a Christian can read Psalm 119, find their heart stirred in love, and give a hearty "amen" at the end - then they have understood the way of Torah.

So I don't believe the Messiah came to save us from the beautiful guidelines that the Father gave to us (probably through Yeshua).  Rather, I believe He came to save us from the penalty of not following the Torah that was due to us - so that we could follow in newness of spirit, by the Spirit.  And the Holy Spirit guides us in the way of Torah as we read it regularly - IF we read it regularly.  The truth is between the lines of the commands.

I totally get that.  But as we grow in our new life in Messiah, what do you think that looks like?  Just getting older and helping people more?  But what about obedience. Do you think that should increase as we mature?

We have simple rules for toddlers, increased rules for teenagers, expected standards for young adults, and trust of common sense for mature adults.  The way I see it, as we come the Lord , we come as children - nothing but salvation matters and we simply walk in love for Him. As we read the Word, we refine ourselves and behaviour and the Spirit trains us as we grow.  But as we grow more mature in the Messiah, don't you think Yahweh would expect us to start growing more and break out of the early stages?

In this way, the Sabbath is not required for salvation and neither is it forced upon you to do. For a new believer it is technically another day.  But as we read His Word more and learn just how important it is to Him, we get to a crossroads.  Do we observe it or not.  Now we are free not to, having already obtained the gift of salvation.  But what will you do with that freedom?  Freely obey or keep it as just another day.

I hope you don't take offence at that, it's just how I see it personally.

Hah, yes, that wouldn't be good news!  Although,  I don't think Torah got harder but rather revealed through the Messiah.  He showed us how to understand the Torah. Not as "Thou shalt not" and "Thou shalt do" but rather - "This is what the Father means" and "This is how He feels". 

As for understanding the rest of the Torah in the same light of the the Beatitudes, we have the Spirit to reveal this wisdom to us.  The the Torah goes from a list of ordinances to a voice whispering "This is the way, walk in it".

Therefore, the good news is truly salvation first and revelation of His Word thereafter.

You raise a great point hear my friend.  The heart is the main concern and it should take top priority over food.  For what good is it to eat clean meats but speak bitterly to a brother.

However, the former should be done without neglecting the other.  What I mean is clean food can be eaten whilst we work on our hearts (or rather let the Spirit work on our hearts).  Because if we wait until we'll perfect before eating kosher, then we never will.  It's like saying "I will stop lying after I stop committing adultery" - Perhaps an extreme example.

But you are absolutely right, the heart is the priority and if it becomes too bothersome, matters of clean and unclean food pale in comparison.  Good point.

May I ask, did you once observe Torah according to oral tradition before coming to the Messiah? 

One more question, if you don't mind.  Don't you find it strange that the Sabbath (according to your understanding) was annulled in just a few sentences by Paul and not explicitly by Messiah?  Wouldn't that mean that Yahweh was dealing unfairly with us, as if saying "Let's just not mention the Sabbath at all and see if they get that I'm no longer interested in it.  Then, I'll have Paul write vaguely about it in a couple of letters, nothing specific though. Hopefully, that will be enough for them to see I've overturned all of my previous statements".  Or, is it more likely the distorted teachings brought in by the Catholic Church bled into Christianity (historically provable) and people misinterpreting Paul (2 Pet 3:14-18) as they stay mainly in the New Testament?  Because, ultimately, those are surely the only two options here.  But isn't the first option a little... weird?

Love & Shalom

We have hundreds of laws to deal with in Torah, so why limit to Sabbath? There were only a few items mentioned in the Jerusalem council for Gentiles, and even the "meat to idols" is reproved by Paul elsewhere, after the council. Behind every idol is the power of a demon, but an idol is also a nothing, and it's just... meat.

I like your analogy of a boss and contract, however, it is vital in a relationship to know how to get hired, not fired, and grow in responsibility, for example, do I need to work on Saturday? At my "job" with Jesus, I can work seven days or rest seven days weekly and nothing magic or spiritual happens when the calendar moves between Monday, Thursday or Saturday. Recall that the apostles didn't technically rest on Saturdays but went to the Temple courts or local synagogues for hard work at preaching and evangelism.

As a Jew, I know Torah as a path, and we Jews follow orthopraxy, "doing by living/walking" and not just "by learning doctrine". However, I disagree that righteousness is generated prior to Yeshua via Torah observance only, since there are righteous Gentiles in both testaments. Rather, salvation in both testaments comes from trusting God. As a Jew, please understand how people retcon Noah to say he kept Torah or Sabbath, which is nonsense. People didn't rest on Shabbat prior to Moses, so be careful not to make Saturdays "magical" is my advice.

I see you define sin this way: "...the penalty of not following the Torah that was due to us," but Gentiles need not follow the Torah! Do you not recall that Gentiles were becoming Christians then compelled to be circumcised? Paul says sarcastically, "Cut off!" meaning "If they had no genitals, they couldn't boast in following Torah with their genitals." You don't owe God a sin debt for not following laws given to my people.

 

How am I supposed to answer this question from you: 

"But what about obedience. Do you think that should increase as we mature?"

No! I think we should sin constantly and never be sanctified! I'm joking of course, because your question implies not Sabbath-keeping is some kind of horrible sin. Sanctification to me means walking in holiness, which comes from the Spirit, not by the letter, and I strive to evangelize better and live better. "Do nothing one day weekly" doesn't sound like striving to me.

 

"The Torah goes from a list of ordinances to a voice whispering "This is the way, walk in it"."

No, the Torah goes under the blood of Christ, I die to it, to be wed to Christ, to bear fruit for God, and then, instead of listening to a voice for my PRIMARY guidance, my primary guidance is the Holy Bible.

 

"The Sabbath wasn't annulled by Paul in a few vague sentences," as you wrote. The Sabbath being kept, along with some or all of Torah by Gentiles, was reproved by most books of the NT. The Sabbath is eternal, keeping it as a religious practice is mostly useless, other than two principles: 1) rest from work to avoid human burnout 2) point to Jesus as our true Sabbath since we are saved AND sanctified by grace, not works.

 

[Billiards Ball]

7 hours ago, Betha said:

It seems to matter little what any of us say re the Sabbath...we are all convinced one way or another and are not moved. Maybe that is how GOD wants it at this time according to their own choice. There is no commanded Sabbath-keeping in the NT....so that people can actually make their own choice....and it is a great idea of God to show Him people's personal loyalty and allegiance. 

What can be seen from that test of 'free will  to choose' Deut 30v19 is rather sad.....in that most when given a chance will follow their own understanding/opinion....not the Word and Will of God which have been set up from the Beginning/Foundation and never been abolished. 

Yes, but I want to graciously point out to Sabbath-keepers that their faith needs to get stronger in general and more focused on Christ in specific.

[JustPassingThru]

Please, ...may I interject something for the lurkers reading this, ...which I'm sure you all know...

Paul is not the source of his letters, ...he did not "write" them, ...the Truth is the Holy Spirit wrote the "Pauline" letters through his quill, ...Paul was just the instrument He used, ...so beloved, please don't think the argument that Paul wrote them is valid, ...the "Pauline" epistles were written by God the Holy Spirit, ...be careful to not diminish their importance, ...their validity, ...their God given TRUTH (Jesus told us the Holy Spirit "only" writes what He has heard Jesus say John 14:26), ...to mere human intellect!

When we are reading the "Pauline" epistles and the other books of the New Testament, ...remember, ...we are listening to Jesus...

Lord bless 

[Alive]

Paul did spend quite a bit of time alone with Jesus learning the Truth.

I very much doubt that time was wasted. I also imagine those things the Lord taught him were not easily forgotten--or in other words--made an indelible impression.

It must have been really cool.

Ya--I think maybe we ought to pay close attention.

One other point---do y'all recall what Jesus told the disciples about stuff he had to teach them was gonna have to wait.

Well--Paul got that stuff first hand and up front.