Is Jesus still subject to God

[JesusisGod2]

Phil 2:9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,

10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

This can also be translated

Every tongue will confess that Jesus is Jehovah

The Jehovah witnesses try to show Jesus as a little lord and That Jehovah is God Almighty.

Jesus Himself calls Himself Jehovah which means Lord Almighty

Revelation 1:8

"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, " who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

Revelation 4:8

And the four living creatures, each one of them having six wings, are full of eyes around and within; and day and night they do not cease to say, " HOLY, HOLY, HOLY is THE LORD GOD, THE ALMIGHTY, WHO WAS AND WHO IS AND WHO IS TO COME."

Revelation 16:7

And I heard the altar saying, "Yes, O Lord God, the Almighty, true and righteous are Your judgments."

Jesus is Jehovah!

In Him

kevin

[Trust & Obey]

Tim, I think Jesus is ALWAYS subject to the Father, just as my son is always in subject to me. This doesn't mean that I am "better" than my son, it merely means that I have a different role in the relationship than he does.

Being co-equal doesn't mean that they operate in the same capacities.

Did you know that the Bible, even the NWT, specifically calls Jesus "YHVH?" Most people do not know that. You can take a JW to Isaiah 40:3 in their own NWT and show them where Jesus is referred to as "YHVH" (Jehovah, in the NWT).

Isa 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

Now, who was the "voice of him that crieth in the wilderness?" It was John the Baptist.

Luk 3:4 As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

Now, "Who's path" was John the Baptist "making straight?" It was JESUS.

There you have it. Isaiah 40:3 says that Jesus is Jehovah. Sometimes the JW will try and dance around that with something like "well, it means figuratively because Jesus was the representative of Jehovah... blah blah blah." Other times they will admit it because it is right there in their own bible, but then they'll go on about why the JWs are better than "Christians" because of all of the wonderful things that they do around the world.

Anyways, Is. 40:3 is a powerful verse on the deity of Christ. Study the passage carefully along with the NT references to John the Baptist fulfilling this prophecy (Matt 3:3; Mark 1:3; Luke 3:4; John 1:23).

Keep in prayer that God would open the eyes of the JWs so that they may see the glorious gospel of Christ.

God bless.

[Trust & Obey]

I don't want to hijack this thread with a debate with Zhavonay -

but to call Christ a created being is preaching a false doctrine.

Plain and simple.

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Hi Nebula

You are just misunderstanding what I am saying. God Created Himself as Christ first and then fashioned the rest of creation around Him. Like the scriptures that I posted indicate.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is nothing short of heresy and blasphemy. God is not a created being. God could not have created Himself, because it is impossible for God to be both creator and creature at the same time.

Let's look at the at the Scriptures that you pervert.

Col 1

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 

What this verse is talking about is Jesus rank in creation. It is saying that Jesus holds pre-eminence as the first born. It is not saying that Jesus was born or created before the rest of Creation. Jesus is God, and is therefore eternally pre-existent with the Father. Jesus, as God was NEVER created. There was never a time that He did not exist in eternity past, and there will never be a time that He will not exist in eternity future.

Re 3

14 "And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write,'These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God:

Again, this is simply stating what was said in Colossians 1, namely that Jesus holds primacy over all, and is therefore the head of all creation. Jesus is the beginning or the "Rosh" as we say in Hebrew. He is the "Rosh" (head or first, or the start of) of the Universe. He is the "beginning" of the Universe, in that the universe finds its beginning in Jesus who created it.

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Amen, Shiloh. The Greek word for "beginning" in the "beginning of the creation of God" is the word arche. Arche is the where we get our English word architect and archbishop. It means that Jesus is the Creator (Architect) and Preeminent One (archbishop).

It does NOT mean that Jesus was the first creation of God... as the JWs erroneously try to suggest.

[gypc]

The subjection was only on earth and for our example. Jesus was God in the flesh........Jesus is God.

Remember when someone called Jesus good..........Mark 10:

17As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. "Good teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

18"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good

[nebula]

This is not my theology. I never said that. You did. God created everything that you can know except Himself.

But you said that God created Christ.

You see God created Christ first

Are you saying that Christ is not God?

You are just misunderstanding me. The Spirit of God has never left the place where he was before a place which is part of creation existed. He created everything where he is at. Like the scripture says "in him we live and move and have our being". Even though He created the Spirit for lions. If He wanted to inhabit a lion to tear someone to shreds. I wouldn't want to be the one to try and tell him He's to Holy to do that. If He wanted to create a messenger of fire to come down and sit on a bush that won't burn so He could  talk with Moses I suppose He could do that to, without ever leaving heaven. I hope that you understand what I am saying since this is all about preparing us for a habitation of God in the Spirit.

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First, I Kings 13 doesn't say anything about the Lord inhabiting the lion. That's making an assumption on your part.

Second, what do you mean "create a messanger of fire"? Ex. 3 says: "And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush." Are you saying the angel of the Lord did not exist before this event?

Third, what is with the "without leaving Heaven"?

Have you not read Psalm 139?

7 Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence?

8 If I ascend into heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there.

9 If I take the wings of the morning, And dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea,

Even there Your hand shall lead me, And Your right hand shall hold me.

10 If I say, "Surely the darkness shall fall on me," Even the night shall be light about me;

11 Indeed, the darkness shall not hide from You, But the night shines as the day; The darkness and the light are both alike to You.

Are you saying God is not everywhere?

[EricH]

Tim, I think Jesus is ALWAYS subject to the Father, just as my son is always in subject to me. This doesn't mean that I am "better" than my son, it merely means that I have a different role in the relationship than he does.

Being co-equal doesn't mean that they operate in the same capacities.

Did you know that the Bible, even the NWT, specifically calls Jesus "YHVH?" Most people do not know that. You can take a JW to Isaiah 40:3 in their own NWT and show them where Jesus is referred to as "YHVH" (Jehovah, in the NWT).

Isa 40:3  The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

Now, who was the "voice of him that crieth in the wilderness?" It was John the Baptist.

Luk 3:4  As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

Now, "Who's path" was John the Baptist "making straight?" It was JESUS.

There you have it. Isaiah 40:3 says that Jesus is Jehovah. Sometimes the JW will try and dance around that with something like "well, it means figuratively because Jesus was the representative of Jehovah... blah blah blah." Other times they will admit it because it is right there in their own bible, but then they'll go on about why the JWs are better than "Christians" because of all of the wonderful things that they do around the world.

Anyways, Is. 40:3 is a powerful verse on the deity of Christ. Study the passage carefully along with the NT references to John the Baptist fulfilling this prophecy (Matt 3:3; Mark 1:3; Luke 3:4; John 1:23).

Keep in prayer that God would open the eyes of the JWs so that they may see the glorious gospel of Christ.

God bless.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It is called the economic aspect of the trinity. They are co-equal in diety, but differ in role and function iwthin the God-head. For instance, the Father sends the Son.

[Trust & Obey]

Tim, I think Jesus is ALWAYS subject to the Father, just as my son is always in subject to me. This doesn't mean that I am "better" than my son, it merely means that I have a different role in the relationship than he does.

Being co-equal doesn't mean that they operate in the same capacities.

Did you know that the Bible, even the NWT, specifically calls Jesus "YHVH?" Most people do not know that. You can take a JW to Isaiah 40:3 in their own NWT and show them where Jesus is referred to as "YHVH" (Jehovah, in the NWT).

Isa 40:3  The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

Now, who was the "voice of him that crieth in the wilderness?" It was John the Baptist.

Luk 3:4  As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

Now, "Who's path" was John the Baptist "making straight?" It was JESUS.

There you have it. Isaiah 40:3 says that Jesus is Jehovah. Sometimes the JW will try and dance around that with something like "well, it means figuratively because Jesus was the representative of Jehovah... blah blah blah." Other times they will admit it because it is right there in their own bible, but then they'll go on about why the JWs are better than "Christians" because of all of the wonderful things that they do around the world.

Anyways, Is. 40:3 is a powerful verse on the deity of Christ. Study the passage carefully along with the NT references to John the Baptist fulfilling this prophecy (Matt 3:3; Mark 1:3; Luke 3:4; John 1:23).

Keep in prayer that God would open the eyes of the JWs so that they may see the glorious gospel of Christ.

God bless.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It is called the economic aspect of the trinity. They are co-equal in diety, but differ in role and function iwthin the God-head. For instance, the Father sends the Son.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Dad Ernie]

1 Cor 15:27 - For he "has put everything under his feet". Now when it says that "everything has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

Now why is Christ still subject to the father if Christ is exalted to His previous status as one person of the Trinity God? My thoughts are as follows: Christ is not yet fully exalted, and won't be until he has judged the world and beaten Satan the god of this world once and for all. OR that Christ is subject to the father, just like the father is subject to him. Because both need to be in total agreement and unity because they are in essence One. And the Holy Spirit would also be subject to God the father and the son just like they would be subject to the holy spirit, in order to create unity. OR the word subject is not an adequate translation, in which case I would like to know the original greek in order to make my decision. But I think that in this context this conclusion couldn't be correct because God is said not to be under Jesus. So how can the Father not be under Christ and yet Christ under God, how can this inequality work? This thought goes contrary to what the verse says, or so I think. Also it says that Christ is under God, not under the Father. Unless it is referring to God the Father, not just God the whole (the trinity) then this is confusing because how can Jesus be under Himself as God? Now if the correct translation is God the Father, not God the trinity, then the first explanation could be valid, yet if it is Jesus under himself neither explanations are vaild and this possess a very confusing arrangement in the Godhead.

If anyone can help me out with this, that would be great. Thanks

Greetings Tim Guy,

I haven't seen this mentioned, so I will just add to the mystery of the Godhead:

JESUS, WHILE ON EARTH:

Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

JESUS IN HEAVEN:

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

So, yes, there is a limitation of the Son, and I believe it will continue until the 1 Cor 15 verse you cite above. Then we will fully see God, the Holy Spirit and Jesus as ONLY ONE personage and this is whom we shall live with for all eternity. I believe that when every eye sees Him, they will see the nail holes in His hands and His feet, but there will come a time when those will no longer be necessary because we shall know Him, even as He now knows us.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Trust & Obey]

Greetings Tim Guy,

I haven't seen this mentioned, so I will just add to the mystery of the Godhead:

JESUS, WHILE ON EARTH:

Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

Dad E, the context of that passage must be understood in light of Philippians 2.

Phi 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

Phi 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Phi 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Phi 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

At the time Jesus said that He did not know the day or hour because He had laid aside certains privileges of his deity, but I would think He knows when He is coming back now.

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings T&O,

Dad E, the context of that passage must be understood in light of Philippians 2.

Phi 2:5  Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

Phi 2:6  Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Phi 2:7  But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Phi 2:8  And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

At the time Jesus said that He did not know the day or hour because He had laid aside certains privileges of his deity, but I would think He knows when He is coming back now.

I agree with you, but I also cited Rev 1:1 in which it shows that it was the Father who gave the vision to Jesus, AND THIS WAS IN HEAVEN. Now why do you suppose it was worded that way? I believe we shall Jesus when He appears and reigns for the 1,000 years, just as Thomas saw Him in the upper room. It wasn't the Father that went on the Cross, but the Son, and if you will notice in the 1 Cor 15 verse:

"then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all."

If you think these verses (Rev 1 & 1 Cor 15) mean something else, please let me hear it.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie