Is Jesus still subject to God

[eric]

Let's go back to the OP;..Is Jesus still under the authority of God?

Zhav, if you read the 28th chapter of Mathew, you will find in verse 18, that Jesus told his disciples, when they returned from the mountain, and after His resurrection, that all power has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

If Jesus says He has all power, then I must believe just that. What else can it mean? What part ofall can't you inderstand?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Eric

I don't know what you are talking about. Christ is God so He has all power in heaven and earth. I have never said anything different.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Because this absurdity that you said in post #11 July 3rd.

You are saying the exact same thing that I am saying except for one little difference. It is apparent that God created Christ's Body since it is part of creation and was flesh. The Spirit of God and Christ is the only thing that is not part of creation. Is this correct?

That's what I'm talking about. God creating Jesus. Horse radish.

[Guest shiloh357]

Isaiah 7:14

"Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel.

Matthew 1:23

"Behold, the virgin shall be with CHILD, AND SHALL BEAR A Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel," which translated means, "God with us."

Here the Scriptures say that He is called "God with us."

1."Immanuel" doesn't tell us that Jesus is God, but that in his life, God has intervened to save the people. The parents of Ithiel (God is with me) didn't believe their offspring to be deity.

Here is what the Scriptures say further about this virgin born child:

Isaiah 9:6

For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;

And the government will rest on His shoulders;

And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,

Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

Now those are quite interesting titles for someone to hold. Here is Jesus is referred to as both the "Eternal Father," and "Mighty God." I would like to point out that God is jealous for His glory. He will not share His glory with anyone else. He will not allow anyone but Himself to be venerated as God.

The title El Gibor for "Mighty God," ascribes deity to the child in verse 6. It is rendered by Martin Luther as "Strong Hero" and by others as "Hero of Strength." These are not the meanings of El Gibor, as they fail to render the Hebrew properly. El is never used except to denote the God of Scripture. It is always God, and yet it is being applied to a human child. How can this be?

We find El Gibor also used in Isaiah 10:20-21

Isaiah 10:20-21 And it shall be in that day, the remnant of Israel, and those who have escaped from the house of Jacob, shall never again lean on him who struck them; but truly lean on Jehovah, the Holy One of Israel. (21) The remnant shall return, the remnant of Jacob, to the Mighty God. It is again, the title El Gibor being used here. The child of Isaiah 9:6 is the same "El Gibor" to whom the remnant of Israel shall one day return. The El Gibor of Isaiah 9:6, and 10:21 are none other than Jesus/Yeshua!

2."El" actually isn't always used to denote God. For example:

Deuteronomy 28:32 Thy sons and thy daughters shall be given unto another people, and thine eyes shall look, and fail with longing for them all the day long: and there shall be no might in thine hand.

The word "might" here is also "el". In the AV, it's also translated 'strong', 'mighty' goodly', and even 'idols'.

That aside, even if we just stick to saying that he's called mighty God in the kingdom, I've got no problems with that. He's worthy of that title. Of an angel, we read that"my name is in him", and angels are called God when they represent him. But Christ has obtained a more excellent name than them.

Isaiah 42:8

"I am the Lord, that is My name;

I will not give My glory to another,

Nor My praise to graven images.

Calling Jesus Eternal Father, Mighty God, would amount to giving Him Glory that God reserves for Himself alone. Since it is God talking in Isaiah 9:6, that means that the child being Glorified in that verse,must therefore be God.

Furthermore, Jesus is called both Lord and Savior.

Luke 2:11

for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.

Acts 5:31

"He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Acts 13:23

"From the offspring of this man, according to promise, God has brought to Israel a Savior, Jesus,

to Titus, my true child in a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.

3. God has exalted Jesus. Paul says that God is the Father. Sure, Jesus is the saviour, and he is our Lord and Master, but this is because God has exalted him to be so.

In Isaiah it is also written,

Isaiah 43:11

"I, even I, am the Lord;

And there is no Savior besides Me.

So if the God is refuses to allow anyone to share His glory with Him, calls Himself the Lord, and He is the only Savior of Israel, Jesus could not be Lord and Savior without being God. Again it is written in the book of Hosea the prophet:

Hosea 13:4

Yet I have been the Lord your God

Since the land of Egypt;

And you were not to know any god except Me,

For there is no savior besides Me.

Jesus is our Savior, and there is no Savior besides Him, and there is no Savior but God, so the Apostles were correct when they said:

Acts 4:12

"And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved."

4. Christ can be called our saviour, and yet not be God, as he was provided by God. For example, Othniel was called a saviour. Judges 3:9 "And when the children of Israel cried unto the LORD, the LORD raised up a deliverer (Heb. saviour) to the children of Israel, who delivered them, even Othniel the son of Kenaz, Caleb

[nebula]

After I quoted the scripture "In Him we live and move and have our being" Why would you ask me "Are you saying God is not everywhere?"? And how could he leave heaven if He is everywhere? Haven't you ever read what God told Job out of the whirlwind?

I go back to my second question: what is with the "without leaving Heaven" about?

  If you look at the scripture about moses and the burning bush you will find that it says the lord and God Spoke to Moses out of the burning bush that didn't burn. So yes God only used that messenger one time.

OK, what is your understanding of "the Angel of the Lord"? Because it is obviously different.

  And the Lion stood by the corpse with the donkey. The last time I looked Lions don't act that way. So what would cause a Lion Who just killed the rebelious prophet of the Lord to leave it's natural state? And what would cause a donkey to leave it's natural state to talk to another rebelious prophet in the story of balaam?

You are assuming God inhabited the lion. The Scripture doesn't say how the Lord caused the lion to fulfill His purpose. As for Balaam's donkey, the Scripture specifically states that the Lord opened the donkey's mouth. Again, it speaks nothing of "habitation."

[Guest shiloh357]

How He used His messenger Lion to Kill His rebellious Prophet The fact of the matter is He did it.

Actually what matters is your suggestion that God in habited the lion, much the same way an evil spirit inhabits and controls an individual. It is that suggestion that is at issue. Now you are wanting to back peddle and pretend it doesn't matter.

We are taught lies in school about gravity and many other things that without the will of God doing them would not exist

What lies?

No one is denying that God controls the universe and its operations. You are trying to skirt the issues you raised, and are now finding that you can't defend.

[nebula]

How He used His messenger Lion to Kill His rebellious Prophet The fact of the matter is He did it.

Actually what matters is your suggestion that God inhabited the lion, much the same way an evil spirit inhabits and controls an individual. It is that suggestion that is at issue. Now you are wanting to back peddle and pretend it doesn't matter.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking.

[Guest shiloh357]

How He used His messenger Lion to Kill His rebellious Prophet The fact of the matter is He did it.

Actually what matters is your suggestion that God in habited the lion, much the same way an evil spirit inhabits and controls an individual. It is that suggestion that is at issue. Now you are wanting to back peddle and pretend it doesn't matter.

We are taught lies in school about gravity and many other things that without the will of God doing them would not exist

What lies?

No one is denying that God controls the universe and its operations. You are trying to skirt the issues you raised, and are now finding that you can't defend.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What are you talking about? I am trying to explain to you what I was saying in a way that you might understand. Why would you think that I have any need to back peddle or skirt issues? Who made the Lion Kill the Prophet? And how did He do it? And what does that add up to?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Again, it was YOUR suggestion that the lion was inhabited by God, when that was opposed, your response made it appear that you consider the idea of God inhabiting the lion to be the only logical explanation for why a lion would act apart from its nature.

What does it add up to? Well, it certainly does not add up to God possessing animals.

[Remnantrob]

I love you guys, this is way better than television and way more fulfilling. The way that one is right and one is wrong keeps me coming back to see who will get the better of the other. Keep fighting for truth.

[Guest shiloh357]

How He used His messenger Lion to Kill His rebellious Prophet The fact of the matter is He did it.

Actually what matters is your suggestion that God in habited the lion, much the same way an evil spirit inhabits and controls an individual. It is that suggestion that is at issue. Now you are wanting to back peddle and pretend it doesn't matter.

We are taught lies in school about gravity and many other things that without the will of God doing them would not exist

What lies?

No one is denying that God controls the universe and its operations. You are trying to skirt the issues you raised, and are now finding that you can't defend.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What are you talking about? I am trying to explain to you what I was saying in a way that you might understand. Why would you think that I have any need to back peddle or skirt issues? Who made the Lion Kill the Prophet? And how did He do it? And what does that add up to?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Again, it was YOUR suggestion that the lion was inhabited by God, when that was opposed, your response made it appear that you consider the idea of God inhabiting the lion to be the only logical explanation for why a lion would act apart from its nature.

What does it add up to? Well, it certainly does not add up to God possessing animals.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No one said anything about possessing. But what does it add up to to you?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah you did. You did not use THAT word, but you suggested that God inhabited the lion and caused to do what it did. THAT is possession, and God does not do that. I know God, and I know what he will and will not do.

Doesn't matter what I think it adds up to. All that matters is preventing you from convincing anyone that God created Christ, and God inhabits animals and other heretical garbage. I know what it doesn't add up to.

[Trust & Obey]

I'm not a JW, but I don't believe the Trinity, and I know lots of Christians who don't believe it either.  I've studied it for quite a while, and through reading and prayer, have concluded that there's very many reasons not to believe it, and don't see very many reasons to believe it, other than people getting after you if you don't. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well of course if you're looking for reasons not to place your faith in Christ you can easily find a bunch of excuses composed from lies and half-truths... the Truth; however, is found in God's Word...

4. The Bible says God cannot lie (Titus 1:1-4). He doesn't.

"But of the Son He says,

[Trust & Obey]

     

I love you guys, this is way better than television and way more fulfilling. 

TV isn't really a difficult standard to surpass.