Torah in the New Testament: part 1, Acts Meeting

[Yishai]

1 minute ago, maryjayne said:

I see. So what you refer to as Torah is the two commandments by Jesus.

I do wish you had clarified your definition from the beginning of the thread, as I requested.

All in the new testament and easy to understand.

What is the penalty for breaking Torah? What happens to a Christian if they don't follow it?

For example dietary laws, we will Love His diet for us, bc we love Him with everything we got, bc He designed it and the animals and He knows pigs are nasty creatures, if a person eats a unclean animal there physical Body will be unclean until the Next day, thats all for that part(and its not worthy for sacrifice in the Temple (our body is a temple). And Messiah just gave the two most important commands which alredy existed in Torah (the first 5 books) another Example is Sabbath. People just gotta learn those things are actual sins to not follow the Laws, and I know when they realize that, they wont wanna partake even if They still do have thier Salvation, they wanna please Him. Nothing to do with our Salvation, just the Truth of what does apply to us.

[Yishai]

2 minutes ago, maryjayne said:

Right. So if I eat pork, I am still saved, but I have made God cross with me and displeased  Him?

Its like a real simple yes or No, its like, would He rather His people to Follow that Command and not eat unclean animals?, and the answer is Yes, Of course He would rather us not eat of them. Its not a big deal, and wont mess with Salvation, but it does still apply to His people.

[Alive]

14 minutes ago, George said:

@Yishai Interesting discussion ... 

Everyone take a step back and let's not make accusations and assume what the other is thinking.  I think there are a lot of assumptions going on.

As far as the Torah, as Yeshua summed up the Torah in these commandments ...

Mat 22:37  And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 
Mat 22:38  This is the great and first commandment. 
Mat 22:39  And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 
Mat 22:40  On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.” 

LOVE is the essence of the entire Bible.  

Rom 13:8  Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. 
Rom 13:9  For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 
Rom 13:10  Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. 

In all of these discussions, let's not forget what truly separates believers from the world -- LOVE!

When looking at the Torah from the perspective of God's love toward us ... instead of how we love God through the law ... but rather how God loves us, and we love our neighbor in understanding the Torah will go a great bit farther in your understanding of the OT.

Oftentimes, those who are "torah" teachers are legalists and haven't comprehended the real purpose of the Torah ... however, if you look at it from the perspective of how God loves us, and how we love our neighbor ... we will truly understand the LOVE and GRACE in the Torah.

When God describes Himself ... think about this ...

Exo 34:6  The LORD passed before him and proclaimed, “The LORD, the LORD, a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness, 
Exo 34:7  keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, but who will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children and the children's children, to the third and the fourth generation.” 

Whereby people who understand that God is merciful, gracious, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness ... realize this as the main understanding of who God is.

But this does not negate that fact that God is a God of justice.

We're all called to love one another ... let's do so ... for we can have disagreements in love ... in doing so, maybe we'll learn a thing or two,

God bless,

George

George--"love" is expressed in different ways. You know that. There is more going on here and I think you are aware of this. I understand the need for moderation for the forum's sake. Beware of a conflict there. Forum's sake or young one's sake. As you yourself have written---you are also always learning.

[Yishai]

Just now, maryjayne said:

I don't think we can go any further in this point. I am not under the law of Moses, or any other law.

I believe what is said in the gospels and epistles about fulfillment of the old law by the death of Jesus. 

I believe the two laws Jesus Christ gave, and the words about what gentiles were to do about the law of Moses and circumcision.

Period.

If we Love Him with everything we will Love His Law and commanments as well, we wont rebel against what we love.

[Yishai]

20 minutes ago, George said:

@Yishai Interesting discussion ... 

Everyone take a step back and let's not make accusations and assume what the other is thinking.  I think there are a lot of assumptions going on.

As far as the Torah, as Yeshua summed up the Torah in these commandments ...

Mat 22:37  And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 
Mat 22:38  This is the great and first commandment. 
Mat 22:39  And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 
Mat 22:40  On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.” 

LOVE is the essence of the entire Bible.  

Rom 13:8  Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. 
Rom 13:9  For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 
Rom 13:10  Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. 

In all of these discussions, let's not forget what truly separates believers from the world -- LOVE!

When looking at the Torah from the perspective of God's love toward us ... instead of how we love God through the law ... but rather how God loves us, and we love our neighbor in understanding the Torah will go a great bit farther in your understanding of the OT.

Oftentimes, those who are "torah" teachers are legalists and haven't comprehended the real purpose of the Torah ... however, if you look at it from the perspective of how God loves us, and how we love our neighbor ... we will truly understand the LOVE and GRACE in the Torah.

When God describes Himself ... think about this ...

Exo 34:6  The LORD passed before him and proclaimed, “The LORD, the LORD, a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness, 
Exo 34:7  keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, but who will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children and the children's children, to the third and the fourth generation.” 

Whereby people who understand that God is merciful, gracious, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness ... realize this as the main understanding of who God is.

But this does not negate that fact that God is a God of justice.

We're all called to love one another ... let's do so ... for we can have disagreements in love ... in doing so, maybe we'll learn a thing or two,

God bless,

George

Amen brother! Thank you for your comments! Hope you are having a wonderful day friend. 

[Yishai]

9 minutes ago, maryjayne said:

I believe what is said in the gospels and epistles about fulfillment

Fulfilment in no way means to abolish or destroy,or Nullify, in Hebrew its more equal to the Word "Goal".

[Yishai]

6 minutes ago, maryjayne said:

When we reach a goal, we have completed it. Jesus set a new goal. The old goal was fulfilled and ended. 

The Hebrew words for fulfilment mean completion, an ending.

It can also mean the Jesus, right up to the moment of His death, followed the law. 

It doesn't then mean that the law continued in the next millisecond. The old law of Moses was instantly replaced by the all encompassing principles established in the two commandments.

No, He is the Only one In the Flesh who ever has Fulfilled Torah, the Only one without sin, thats why He showed that If someone had lusted after a woman they have committed adultery in thier heart, Amplifying Torah to a whole new Level people just didn't understand before, and that is a unforgivable sin in the first covenant. That why when He lives in Us, He writes The Torah on our minds and Hearts, and when you learn Torah, you will want to Follow every Law with Joy. Thats Him. He Kept 100% of Torah even Spiritually! unlike the Pharisees who had the vail over there hearts who thought bc they did it in the physical they had to be saved, like EL had no choice in the matter anymore...

Just remember, john 3:4 "everyone practising sin also practises lawlesness, and sin is the breaking of Torah" 

 5:17-19 "Do not think that I Have come to loosen Torah or the prophets, I have not come to loosen but to fulfill. 18. For truly I say to you that not one Yodh or Stroke will pass from Torah untileverything happens. 19. All who loosen therefore from one of these small commandments and teach thus to the sons of man, will be called little in the Kingdom of Heaven, but all who do and teach this will be called great in The Kingdom of Heaven"

So just we all gotta know, yes it all still applies to us, but it is Not our way of Salvation.

He saved us from Slavery of Sin of the Flesh, we are the seed of Abraham. When He says Forever it means Forever, when The Messiah speaks, it sticks.  

Part 2 is gonna be called Paul Taught Torah haha.